Author Topic: How do GMs deal with players losing control over their character?  (Read 2747 times)

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Offline Frabby

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Most of the time, a character's actions are determined by the player. You'd think.

If you look closer, however, that's actually a misconception. The character's actions are in fact determined by the GM, who interprets whatever action the player announced and perhaps even lets the dice decide the exact outcome based on a range of possible outcomes he determines.

I'm not even talking about players acting out conversations ("You said what to the Baron?!") or thoughtlessly declaring seemingly trivial actions that turn out to be quite dangerous.

No, I'm talking about situations where a player's ideas, wishes and input isn't really relevant to the outcome of a situation. Where players positively lose control over their characters and, as players, cannot be held responsible for the potentially dire consequences.

Seriously: Has any of you ever had a player character in berserker rage attack another party member and kill them? Or even kill himself in a suicidal charge?

How do you, as GMs, (or how do your GMs) deal with situations where a player character loses his own will due to magic, possession, torture or even something as mundane as seduction or fast-talking/duping maneuver by NPCs?

The question ultimately isn't if the character can resist spilling the beans, I think. The question is if there is anything the bad guys forgot to ask.
Anyways, regardless of whether or not the character survives the procedure, the bad guys now know everything he knew. They know the group's objective, their capabilities, their plan, their hideout, their equipment, their secrets. The inner logic of the game world dictates that the group - characters whose players didn't do anything wrong - are in gave danger of losing their possessions, freedom or even life. Because of the actions of another character who was under the influence of possession/charming/torture/persuasion and couldn't be controlled by the player. They didn't do anything wrong. They just got unlucky.

I found that such a scenario is very detrimental to enjoying the game.

Conversely, many groups seem to have no quarrels about torturing captured antagonists to death to get information out of them. In one often-quoted case of a game I GMed long ago, a captive lost four teeth in "questioning" until the group realized he didn't even speak their language.
Remote-controlling NPCs/antagonists through torture or any other of the aforementioned means seems to be perfectly okay and everyday fare for players.
Do you permit it? Do you treat PCs and NPCs differently? Or do you play strictly by the rules and world logic even if a high-level party could be killed off without having a chance?

Offline jdale

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Re: How do GMs deal with players losing control over their character?
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2015, 04:17:40 PM »
There is a trope about torture that it will get you all the information you want, you just have to be willing to go "dark" enough to do what needs to be done. (See "24".) It's not very realistic and it's not very healthy. I could see torture giving a bonus on an interrogation roll if the victim is the kind of person who is likely to be motivated by fear and pain. Not everyone is. But that's about the limit of how much I would reward that kind of conduct. Getting answers is still a skill, knowing how to read what the subject is willing to give up, what will best motivate them, when their answers are true and when they are lying or just saying whatever the questioner wants to hear. How to prevent them from going into an incoherent panic where you won't get anything at all. Some enemies will not give in unless they are tricked, other enemies really have no reason to hold back anything, especially your average hired thug.

On the other hand, if word gets out about the players conducting torture, that will certainly have an effect on how they are perceived and treated both by allies and by the enemy.

Beyond that...  I try to minimize any sort of persuasion by skill. If I want the NPC to be especially persuasive, I'll try to play them as persuasive, and I may also skew the presentation of the facts. If the PC is using skills to be resistant to persuasion, I'd rather use that to give them clues rather than just saying "he tries to persuade you and fails."

Magic, on the other hand, is magic. I expect the PCs to roleplay the effects. Some players really hate that, some love it because it lets them do things they would never otherwise do. It's definitely a "know your players" kind of issue.

If the result happens to be fatal, they have the same means of mitigating that as any other fatal risk -- healing magic, fate points, etc. If those things fail, a character might end up dead. Characters die, players have to believe it's a possibility.

For the specific case of a berserker, if they kill themself that's really just the consequence of a character they designed. So be it. I would be more concerned about them killing someone else, but see above. I think if the rest of the party believes that is a real possibility, they will take appropriate actions to bring it into line. (That also applies in other cases of endangering behavior. For example, the mentalist in the game I am playing has been possessed more than an average number of times. At this point my character is just in the habit of standing behind him whenever he mind probes something he probably shouldn't -- since my character is the only one with Subdual skill.)
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Offline markc

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Re: How do GMs deal with players losing control over their character?
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2015, 05:35:50 PM »
 I can speak for my game on the NPC stuff, NPC's do not know everything about the PC's and are often working on misconceptions. That is just how I GM but I do know of other GM's that do not do it this way.


 As for the berserk question, yes I have been killed and have had a play kill another in my game because of going berserk. It is a drawback of using that type of skill and having that type of PC.
 I have (my PC) also been shot in the back and killed my a PC and have had a player shoot an seriously wound another by shooting an arrow into them. It is why shooting into melee is very tough and is not just like D&D.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: How do GMs deal with players losing control over their character?
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2015, 11:58:39 PM »
Maybe my group (and I'm sure others) are fortunate enough to let the player act out the loss of control.  If directed by the GM, that their PC is to do it's best to do something beyond it's own control, our players will do it.

The best one I can think of is one of our GM's once ran a Star Wars game where he would give you, for free, 'Dark-side' powers that were more powerful than your normal force powers.  He had them level up along side your other good powers.  One player gave in to that temptation one too many times.  Each time you used a dark power you gained corruption and your level of corruption was the % chance that a dark lord could 'turn' you, even temporarily.  I was not part of that campaign, but the GM instructed that player to turn on his party during a fight with a Sith Lord (i.e. the foe 'turned' him successfully).  It happened twice and the second time it happened was at a very un-opportune moment for the party... he killed three of them.
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Offline TerryTee

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Re: How do GMs deal with players losing control over their character?
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2015, 06:45:39 AM »
Characters killing characters….
In a Cthulhu campaign my group ran a couple of years ago we used multiple characters per player (how else will the campaign continue when characters drop left and right). We normally only had one character in action at a time, but used two each when we needed some heavy hitting power.

During an assault on a cultist shrine, one of the players did a serious fumble with a knife attack, getting the classic ‘hit nearest friend’.  So this player ended up with one of his characters knifing his other character in the throat, killing him. He didn’t kill another player, nor did he commit suicide… I don’t know what it was, but it was fun:-)

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Offline arakish

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Re: How do GMs deal with players losing control over their character?
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2015, 09:07:25 PM »
To prevent such things from happening, as GM, I discuss the matter with the players before the campaign starts.  I do NOT disallow such things from happening, I just discourage them.  However, I am always willing to allow such things.

As for torture, despite popular beliefs and due to TV shows and movies, it has been proven to be one of the most ineffective means of getting information.  I prefer to do things like they did in one episode of NCIS.  One person talks, and I mean just "talks", with the prisoner while others, who are specifically trained to notice things like body language, actual wording of responses, connecting a seemingly innocuous comment to another tidbit of known information, etc., etc.  Doing this, the person doing the watching is actually interpreting the prisoner and makes the connection to the threat.  Problem solved, or another adventure pops up.

As for the stray shots, specifically with bowman firing into the middle of melee, yes, I have had characters shoot other characters.  Even I as a bowman have shot other PCs.  And, I have been shot/hit by other PCs.  However, most of the RPGers I have played with understand that this can happen AND shall happen, even by total accident.  Such things will happen.

As for the Berserker, as said above, I do not disallow it, I just discourage it.  Has anyone else here ever watched that series "Vikings"?  If not, then do so.  However, it is NOT recommended for the weak of heart or weak of stomach.  But it is a most excellent show.

As for Lycanthropy, especially the uncontrolled bestial form, again, I do not disallow it, just discourage.

However, I have had a PC that was a were-bear of the uncontrolled bestial form, actually became a great hero to a people.  The player played the part perfectly.  Instead of seeking the fame and fortune, he actually accepted the hero status, then quietly disappeared.  He disappeared due to the fact that he (the character) could not control the bestial form.  In his human form, the character was actually a somewhat gentle pacifist.  Thus, he chose to disappear so he would no longer cause any harm.  Since he was bestowed with some treasures, he was able to live his life in peace with the occasional adventure when his friends (other PCs) needed his help.

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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: How do GMs deal with players losing control over their character?
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2015, 02:59:23 AM »
As for torture, despite popular beliefs and due to TV shows and movies, it has been proven to be one of the most ineffective means of getting information.  I prefer to do
Nah, you just make sure they understand you're going to check out their intel to make sure it pans out before you let them go, so they probably shouldn't lie.  Course, this assumes they have information so you have to be reasonably sure their truly a bad guy.

Back in our D&D days, we once horrified our GM by torturing a guy (who we knew had information) and accidentally did too much damage and killed him (at which point the GM thought we were done), so I announce I rez him... and we start again. We got the intel and the GM informed us we were a bunch of vicious bastards. lol (In a good natured way).
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Offline Peter R

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Re: How do GMs deal with players losing control over their character?
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2015, 04:09:56 AM »
For example, the mentalist in the game I am playing has been possessed more than an average number of times.

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Offline tbigness

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Re: How do GMs deal with players losing control over their character?
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2015, 10:10:24 AM »
I usually let the player play the uncontrolled affects with the inside knowledge of what may happen and they play the part with grins. I have them randomly pick out targets in combat or in cases of cleptomania I give the a chance that they take things from any available target.

If a player choose a mental disadvantage then I let them play it out, after all they chose to have that flaw. With Berserkers I have this as a random target pick but allow for a chance to recognize a friend. I have had party infights before due to some of these flaws that turned quit comical and let them play it out. Some of the times death became of it or serious wounds (good thing there was a Healer). 
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Offline chippermonks

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Re: How do GMs deal with players losing control over their character?
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2015, 02:18:26 PM »
I have had players lose control through frenzy, or give into dark temptations. Both examples I've detailed below:

The Frenzied Warrior: The frenzied warrior continually failed his perception checks, and as detailed in the rules couldn't distinguish between friend and foe. As such, a random roll was used to determine who he targeted. Sadly this ended up as the party sorcerer, whom was beaten to an inch of his life. In this case, the loss of control is seemingly random, the odds of something happen are equally bad as the yare good. To replicate this, dice were used to determine an outcome.

The Corrupted PC: REcently, a player character came into possession of a shard of a demon king, and it whispered sweet nothings in her ear until she finally gave in, and became the embodiment of the next demon king. The character lost "player" status, and became a monster under my control: she attacked who I wanted, casts the spells I declare, and was a general big evil bad guy. Long long long before this happened, I talked with the player about what it would mean to give into this orb, and she understood and carried on with RPing the temptation (She already had Dark Temptation as a flaw). When she gave in, she made sure it was at a plot-appropriate moment and she willingly handed over her character sheet. This event was pre-planned, and did not infringe on the player's autonomy, even though she lost that autonomy in the end. It isn't my job as a GM to force my story upon the players, it is my job to coax them into participating. This is an excellent example of willingly losing control. The player should never shout "BUT...BUT...That doesn't seem fair!"

Offline VladD

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Re: How do GMs deal with players losing control over their character?
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2015, 10:37:26 AM »
As the GM of quite a few games over the years, I learned slowly that some people like to lose control and go loose ithn a bad fashion. Using foresight I always enact the requirement that a PC can never become a fifth wheel on the wagon. So a bashkar needs enough skill to turn off frenzy when he wants or someone in the group must have a calm or hold spell in the arsenal. Also such character cannot have uncontrollable temper or similar BGO. The same goes for lycanthropy.

As with torture or other bad behaviour. It is allowed but it will have an effect. Cannot torture innocents or gods will look unfavorable on the party. Cannot heal or rez bad guys because gods will get angry.

These rules actually play the ball back to the players. How far are they willing to go. Angry gods and party members mangled because of a failed skill roll is a path few dsre tread.

Lastly I do sometimes take over PCs with spells or let intelligent items take them over. In such cases I will steer actions or get together with the player post game so we can work out a deal. In combat I will try to use such a controlled PC to the advantage of the controller. Players usually do not mind. Unless they get backstabbed by a supposed ally....
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Offline chukoliang

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Re: How do GMs deal with players losing control over their character?
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2016, 05:04:53 PM »
I think this is only as complicated as you the GM or your group want to make it.

The wonderful thing about RM is if you don't want that type of stuff in your game and your the GM running it, it can be taken out of the game. If your a GM and you want it, you can add it. Use the rules the game has or modify them to fit your groups view on it.

Also you have to remember most spells or skill designed to get such information out of someone in RM is limited by the characters ability to explain what he knows. Often there is a huge difference in what the player knows (I.E. everything the GM told him) and what the character knows.  There is also a huge gap in his ability to explain to someone what he knows.  So many things would come into factor here. How skilled is the player at fighting such attempts. Everyone has base stats and thus would have some kind of resistance. How skilled is the person at getting such information out of someone by spell or torture? I imagine interrogating people for sensitive information is not that common of a skill. I also imagine very few people who would want such information would probably be in a world arc where the would waste their time trying to get some information from your average player character.  How badly did both people fail or pass their skill check? Even if all the stars align the GM has to realize the NPC does not know all of the things the GM knows. And if he does not know how could he know to ask about it.

Then there are spells. Most of RM's spells have very specific explanations and if you read them thoroughly I think you would see in most cases they do not give the NPC all knowledge the PC has. Probably not even close.

Also if you are asking someone for something against their will and it is against their nature each round of questioning can require new rolls. The command spells are a perfect example of this. You can command someone to do anythng. But if you tell them to do something against their nature, they get new resistance rolls with bonuses depending on how foreign this command is. I.E. if you command someone to commit suicide and it is against their nature, this would instantly require a new skill check with massive bonuses against the suicide command. This happens with many opposed skills in RM. For most players in a group, it is against their nature to go against their group. So if you combine everything I think it's highly unlikely any scenario where the player truly has no control will come up.

If you as the GM allow conflict within the group that is a different thing. Even in D&D when I played in such groups it always ended up in just about the whole groups death. If the group choses such rule in RM there will be a lot of death. I GMed one evil group and let my good players be evil. They did such horrible things the cities and guards nearby killed them all before they reached level 3  ;D.

Over the many years I have played we even had arguments break out as (fights between characters) and even this was not as disastrous as one would imagine. In one particular event a Fighter got mad at the stupidity of a "Half Giant" player in our group. He had died so many times as a fighter the GM gave him a Half Giant to try to keep him alive. The player truly made stupid moves that put the group in lots of trouble. Worse than that he picked talents that were potentially dangerous to himself and others. Which was horrible at first, but some of our most hilarious stories came from this character. Anyways another fighter determined within himself to kill the Half Giant without telling the rest of the group. Unfortunately I took the Half Giants side. And told him not to be intimidated by OOC stuff. The Half Giant wailed on and stunned the attacking player massively. Our Caster teleported him on the other side of a pond with me and I healed him. Thus we were able to calm down the situation. However if we as players didn't step in, the Warrior who picked the fight would of died. As the Half Giant stunned him and crit pretty brutally on him. As my Healer, who took on those wounds can attest  :-[.

Also remember even with this stuff in the game, the GM can take all of the information from someone and then leave to use it. Well he can also allow the character that spilled the beans to escape then tell the group. Thus creating a fantastic story vehicle. Making the shamed character the hero. And even if he fails ultimately the person who will be blamed is the GM. Because he created the circumstances that created the situation. But even then you are playing RM and the group will know if it was the dice or the GM.

I had a GM who was brutal on thieves. If you were caught stealing you were killed. Well I didn't know how brutal this GM was and took a flaw that I had to steal flashy things. I stole something in a town. Didn't know all the guards were level 50 and the whole group who had just met me died for not stopping thievry. The group learned never to take that flaw. Not to steal in town in this GM's world and thus it never came up again. Lesson learned.

So "control of characters" is only as bad as you and the GM want it to be. You sound like your not a fan. So it shouldn't be that bad of a situation in your game.