Author Topic: RoleMaster magic comes into a previously nonmagic world  (Read 3126 times)

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Offline Thot

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RoleMaster magic comes into a previously nonmagic world
« on: September 10, 2016, 11:32:53 PM »
My upcoming fantasy campaign features am atheist world empire. The High Elves found a simple version of the scientific method in their bronze age, and applied it to everything, including gods and magic, to find out that those didn't exist at all. A thousand years later, they're at Rennaissance level technology and rule the world.

Some background: About two hundred years ago, the High Elves were attacked for their blasphemy,  fought back, got sick of all the superstition of the other peoples and subjugated them, forbidding all gods and claims of magic for the con jobs that they were, not neglecting to actually prove time and again that the gods were just fairy tales and magic just tricks or coincidence, because they did not act in the ways believers claimed they would. Ridicule was, of course, also used to make sure everybody gets the new party line. The political system is still a relatively simple feudal aristocracy, though, with the subjugated kingdoms having a loyal viceroy out of the local nobility, and the emperor doubles as the de-facto-king of the original high elven kingdom. There are two other elven vice-kingdoms, one orcish one (these orcs are of the short-lived rapid-breeder type), one with various human cultures (from Central Europe to Iran, with an African principiality thrown in), a China-inspired lizardpeople kingdom, a Japan-inspired dragonmen island, and the high elven colonies in the West with their Aztec/Native American/Indio-inspired cobra-head humanoid snake people. Dwarves are a minority from the original elven kingdoms without their own nobility. Today, after two hundred years, only the eldest elves and Dragonmen even remember the names of the old gods. Medical technology is relatively simple, of course, with no anorganic medicine. While medical care is widespread and affordable for everyone due to Imperial law, vaccinations and antibiotics are unknown, and there are various mean diseases, so only a third of children gets past the age of six. Elves and Dragonmen age slower than others, with 600 years being an theoretical maximum age that few reach due to disease, very occasional famines and, in earlier times before the Unification, wars. The other species have shorter lives of various length.

Over the past 200 years, migration across the world empire has spawned minorities of each people in each other vice-kingdom. The world has become a lot more cosmopolitic. Species cannot mix (that simply doesn't work biologically), so there are no half-breeds, but most people regularily interact with people from other species. Not everybody likes that, of course.

And then, at the start of my campaign, magic and gods actually come into the world. Not the old gods, who are mostly forgotten now and (I have decided) never actually existed anyway, but new ones, who actually do exist.

The System is GURPS, but the Magic is RoleMaster's magic system, with its threefold Channeling/Essence/Mentalism system. Basically all spell lists are allowed (though some magical items are impossible, especially anything that affects the amount of spells one can cast), but there's an Advantage requirement for access to various types of spells of the three magic realms, and you need to spend points for getting your Magic Points. Pretty expensive, so adaption in most cases should be slow, with a few exceptions for dramatic reasons (of which the players, who are encouraged to save a few points at the start, may well be some). However, once having access to the spells and the required amount of Magic Points, actually casting even high-level spells isn't all that hard.

What I would ask you, dear reader, to do is give me an idea how people, players and various NPC's of all types alike, will, in your opinion, react to the clear evidence of actual magic and gods in a world that has been sure for centuries that such things do not exist, and how the magic of Spell Law will affect the balance of the world. I hope this will help me anticipate at least some of the things that will come up in the campaign, and have answers ready when the need for them comes up.

Offline arakish

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Re: RoleMaster magic comes into a previously nonmagic world
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2016, 11:27:37 AM »
Some background: About two hundred years ago, the High Elves were attacked for their blasphemy,  fought back, got sick of all the superstition of the other peoples and subjugated them, forbidding all gods and claims of magic for the con jobs that they were, not neglecting to actually prove time and again that the gods were just fairy tales and magic just tricks or coincidence, because they did not act in the ways believers claimed they would. Ridicule was, of course, also used to make sure everybody gets the new party line. The political system is still a relatively simple feudal aristocracy, though, with the subjugated kingdoms having a loyal viceroy out of the local nobility, and the emperor doubles as the de-facto-king of the original high elven kingdom. There are two other elven vice-kingdoms, one orcish one (these orcs are of the short-lived rapid-breeder type), one with various human cultures (from Central Europe to Iran, with an African principiality thrown in), a China-inspired lizardpeople kingdom, a Japan-inspired dragonmen island, and the high elven colonies in the West with their Aztec/Native American/Indio-inspired cobra-head humanoid snake people. Dwarves are a minority from the original elven kingdoms without their own nobility. Today, after two hundred years, only the eldest elves and Dragonmen even remember the names of the old gods. Medical technology is relatively simple, of course, with no anorganic medicine. While medical care is widespread and affordable for everyone due to Imperial law, vaccinations and antibiotics are unknown, and there are various mean diseases, so only a third of children gets past the age of six. Elves and Dragonmen age slower than others, with 600 years being an theoretical maximum age that few reach due to disease, very occasional famines and, in earlier times before the Unification, wars. The other species have shorter lives of various length.

That sounds eerily similar to my world of Onaviu...

rmfr
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Offline Thot

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Re: RoleMaster magic comes into a previously nonmagic world
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2016, 02:29:46 PM »
Interesting. Did you also have a "magic gets introduced into the world" moment? If so, what were the things that were most interesting about the events and the reactions of the players? What spell repercussions on a previously nonmagical world did you not expect?

Offline arakish

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Re: RoleMaster magic comes into a previously nonmagic world
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2016, 08:40:50 PM »
No.  Magic was taken away.  A terrible disease went pandemic, evil "elves" (but they are NOT elves) came to rescue with cure.  Overthrew the Nargthrin (renamed Avari and Varyan, the good guys).  Now the Hatharnd just tighten the grip, keeping the survivors between the hammer and anvil.  They have been ruling long enough that the true history has been through a complete Tabula Rasa.  Only four, of the original twelve peoples, survived The Demik and The Havran War.  The only history now remembered is what has been taught in the Krechars by the Hatharnd.

The Hatharnd can sense those capable of using magic and have them systematically executed in a special ceremony that also saps the lifetime of that person's power, absorbing into themselves, making the Hatharnd more powerful psionically.

This has been happening for over 2000 years.

rmfr
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Offline Hurin

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Re: RoleMaster magic comes into a previously nonmagic world
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2016, 09:13:00 PM »
Real (or at least good) scientists would accept and seek to understand magic, if clear evidence of magic were presented to them. Many technologies appear as magic to those who don't understand them, but science should accept all empirical, testable evidence. I expect that good scientists who were presented with incontrovertible evidence of magic would treat it like technology: they would begin to create technologies that mixed what we would call magic with what we would call science.
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Online jdale

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Re: RoleMaster magic comes into a previously nonmagic world
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2016, 10:02:17 PM »
A stated premise is that the gods in fact did not exist. So, there would have been something to disprove. I'm not sure how, looking at the real world there is not a whole lot of material evidence for gods but that hasn't made much difference. But cultures can displace each other for other reasons, if the atheistic high elves are busily conquering other cultures "where is your god now?", that is likely to at least marginalize those religions.

You might "disprove" magic if it is restricted to a small number of practitioners and they aren't willing to come forward. You might discourage practitioners from coming forward if they are lumped in with the god followers who you are actively suppressing. This is more about discrediting magical thinking among the main populace than actual proof.

I agree that science should accept empirical evidence, but if magic is unreliable and subtle, the evidence for it isn't very good, and if the evidence for it isn't very good, you look like a crackpot for studying it.

If that changes rapidly, I would expect some people to pursue magic as a type of science. It's not really "magic", it's self-induced brainwave resonance or excitation of the luminiferous ether. You try to escape the crackpot label by relabeling your topic, categorizing it, using accepted methods, drawing parallels to accepted sciences and philosophies. Others will push back against this, although the more obvious and reproducible the magic, the less that will happen.

You probably also have some crackpots, who had crazy baseless theories but now have magic and will be utterly convinced this is proof that they were right the whole time.

You probably have cults of magic and superstitious practices that were never 100% stamped out, because it's hard to eradicate those things, some of which have magic now and are convinced it proves everything they did is correct. They will probably have persecution complexes because they were actually being persecuted. They have secret rites because they had to do everything in secret, secret practices get ritualized, and now they think those rites were necessary.

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Offline Hurin

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Re: RoleMaster magic comes into a previously nonmagic world
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2016, 10:27:04 PM »
I don't disagree with you JDale, I would just point out that the science we have today emerged out of a mixture of philosophy and pseudo-science; the line between science and superstition is not always easy to see, and was even less easy to see in the sort of renaissance society the OP seems to be describing. Isaac Newton for example practiced alchemy and sought the Philosopher's Stone that would turn lead into gold, even as he was inventing calculus and proposing universal laws of gravity and motion. He calculated that the world would come to an end in the year 2060 by interpreting scripture (his notes on the matter have survived: http://www.standard.co.uk/news/the-world-will-end-in-2060-according-to-newton-7254673.html ).

What really distinguishes science from superstition is not the subject but the method. If the method produces empirical, verifiable results-- and if magic is real, it would-- then you pretty much have science. So I was just saying that if magic really is real, then I would expect it to turn into science eventually.
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Online jdale

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Re: RoleMaster magic comes into a previously nonmagic world
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2016, 11:07:25 PM »
And I agree, but the OP's intent is that things have shifted further away from magic, so I was trying to propose social reasons why that might happen. Social pressure does affect science -- but not forever, evidence eventually wins out.
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Offline Thot

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Re: RoleMaster magic comes into a previously nonmagic world
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2016, 04:12:05 AM »
All very interesting and helpful comments! Thanks guys, keep them coming. :)

But there seems to be a misunderstanding: Prior to the day the game starts, there is no magic at all in the world. None. No practictioners, no spirits, no gods. Just cold, hard physics that don't allow for such things. That's all really just fantasy and stupid superstition.

And then that changes - and the High Elves, after having established firmly and repeatedly, in fact after having built their empire around the fact, that there is no such thing as magic and that there are no gods (and they were right about both!), suddenly have to confront a changed universe where both magic and gods come into existence.

Oh, and the magic that does come into the world is the whole RoleMaster arsenal - Channeling, Essence, Mentalism, the three dual magic types, and archaic magic.

A world where two out of three kids die before the age of seven, where on in ten births ends deadly for the mother, where most major wounds, despite the best efforts for medical care, lead to some permanent damage... suddenly gets healers, even resurrection. A world that is largely at our world's 1450's technology (though no accessible suphur, so no gunpowder) suddenlly gets flame walls and lightning spells and invisibility and flight spells and teleportation... 

Offline Spectre771

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Re: RoleMaster magic comes into a previously nonmagic world
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2016, 09:50:27 AM »
A world where two out of three kids die before the age of seven, where on in ten births ends deadly for the mother, where most major wounds, despite the best efforts for medical care, lead to some permanent damage... suddenly gets healers, even resurrection.

Holy smokes!  That's a harsh world.  I wonder how level 1 PC's are going to fare. LOL

This is a really interesting concept and gaming world to play in.  I hope you keep us up to date as you play out some sessions and let us know how it develops.  This is really similar to the game world we run in my group and how we handle some of the magics and I'm genuinely interested in following your group's adventures.



Off the top, I would say the High Elves will have the hardest time and will most likely openly try to squash the magic users and those who believe in it (either through science or brute force).  This could easily lead to a bloody civil rift within the elf race and then openly with other races as the brute force method would be counter to the enlightened approach of trying to disprove through science.  Could some of the elves actually go into a terrible despair and maybe develop into a Drow-like race?  (I don't know if you have Drow elves in your game world.)  The entire High Elf belief system was just shown to be incorrect overnight. 

Over the past 200 years, migration across the world empire has spawned minorities of each people in each other vice-kingdom. The world has become a lot more cosmopolitic. Species cannot mix (that simply doesn't work biologically), so there are no half-breeds, but most people regularily interact with people from other species. Not everybody likes that, of course.

Converse to this inward self-destructive response, the High Elves could consolidate against the world of believers and magic users.   The already exists no mixed races due to biology, and not all inter-species interactions are even accepted universally, so  you have the groundwork for segregation and discrimination already in place.  Now you'll be adding to those segregated groups, magic-believers/users.  That could be the "new common enemy" that rallies the High Elves together against this new discovery.

I'm afraid I see nothing but civil war and strife for the peoples of this new world. Rock on!  ;D

But there seems to be a misunderstanding: Prior to the day the game starts, there is no magic at all in the world. None. No practictioners, no spirits, no gods. Just cold, hard physics that don't allow for such things. That's all really just fantasy and stupid superstition.


Just for my own clarity; the day you sit down to start the game, your level 1 PC's will be the 1st magic users the world encounters?  Or they are coming into a world that is still dealing with the discovery of magic and gods?  (Maybe 1-6 months after the realization of magic.)
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Offline tbigness

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Re: RoleMaster magic comes into a previously nonmagic world
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2016, 10:02:34 AM »
I would have a period of time from 50 to 500 years where only Arch-magic is the form of magic in the world. This will be the wild magic with consequences before it is refined with study and disciple to the 3 separate magics of the normal RM settings. This would develop the Chaotic and Witch Hunter classes with the others as important characters. You could have the magic using PC's be the creators or founders of the other classes with research and discovery of the base spell lists. This could be fun to run and the PC's would have ownership of the discoveries.
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Offline Thot

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Re: RoleMaster magic comes into a previously nonmagic world
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2016, 11:10:15 AM »
[...]Holy smokes!  That's a harsh world.

That is what we all stem from in this world... the rennaissance in our own world wasn't a good place to live by today's standards, and the earlier times even less so. Even without wars.

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This is a really interesting concept and gaming world to play in.  I hope you keep us up to date as you play out some sessions and let us know how it develops.  This is really similar to the game world we run in my group and how we handle some of the magics and I'm genuinely interested in following your group's adventures.

Well, in that case, watch this thread. I'll be glad to report.

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[...]
I'm afraid I see nothing but civil war and strife for the peoples of this new world. Rock on!  ;D

Yeah, well, that's the plan, at least... conflict and story potential everywhere. I have, of course, left out many details here, with conflict potentials on top of what has been mentioned. If any interested reader understands German, they might want to check out the campaign website: http://heinscher.de/hochelbenreich/

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[...] Just for my own clarity; the day you sit down to start the game, your level 1 PC's will be the 1st magic users the world encounters?  Or they are coming into a world that is still dealing with the discovery of magic and gods?  (Maybe 1-6 months after the realization of magic.)

I am using RoleMaster magic, but the actual game system will be GURPS - so there are no levels and no classes, and people will start as quite competent people who also have potential. Learning magic can be done by anyone, but the cost (in terms of GURPS's version of XP) is quite high. I encourage players to hold back a few points if they want to learn magic quickly, and doubtlessly some NPC's will have done so, too (which represents curiosity and maybe talent for the matter), and there will be opportunities from the start to see high-level spells in action, and to find appropriate sources of information for learning the stuff.

I plan to allow and offer access to any spell lists from any RM edition, as I own quite a bit from both - unless there is a good reason to choose one over the other?

Offline Thot

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Re: RoleMaster magic comes into a previously nonmagic world
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2016, 11:29:13 AM »
To add to the last answer: The players will witness the events that signify the coming of magic at the table, and will be caught in the political turmoils from the start. All of them have a common important poltical figure as a contact, who will have them investigate certain things...

Offline vector

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Re: RoleMaster magic comes into a previously nonmagic world
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2016, 05:33:26 PM »
I have a question about your world and the big changes that are coming. You say magic and gods - real gods - are soon to return to your world. So far the discussion has been all about the magic. What about the gods?

These gods are real, right? Is it a single pantheon of gods? Multiple, competing pantheons? Good? Evil? Amoral? Will they be doing anything other than providing the source of Channeling magic?

Because the return of magic is enough to upend empires and irrevocably change whole cultures, but if the gods are willing to show up and throw down "Old Testament" style that's a whole other thing!

Offline Thot

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Re: RoleMaster magic comes into a previously nonmagic world
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2016, 02:07:38 AM »
I have a question about your world and the big changes that are coming. You say magic and gods - real gods - are soon to return to your world.

No, not "return". They never were there before. They did not exist. Not a thousand years ago, not a million years ago, not a billion years ago.

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So far the discussion has been all about the magic. What about the gods?

These gods are real, right? Is it a single pantheon of gods? Multiple, competing pantheons? Good? Evil? Amoral? Will they be doing anything other than providing the source of Channeling magic?

Because the return of magic is enough to upend empires and irrevocably change whole cultures, but if the gods are willing to show up and throw down "Old Testament" style that's a whole other thing!

Well, I cannot reveal too much about that yet, because some players might be reading and we don't want to give them any spoilers, but stay tuned. ^^

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Re: RoleMaster magic comes into a previously nonmagic world
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2016, 11:04:45 AM »
What is a god? (I don't expect an answer to this.) It's a lot easier to prove there is magic than to prove that there are gods. I think many people will accept that magic is real more easily than they will accept gods. After all, the limits of magic are not really known, so anything a "god" can do could just be a powerful magic user. Supposing these new so-called gods are establishing cults (it's only a religion once it becomes legitimate), and have followers using channeling, that's not proof of divinity or worthiness to be worshipped, it just shows that they are deceived or self-deceived about the nature of their magic.

That kind of attitude is even more likely for people who are taking a scientific-rational approach to magic, categorizing and studying it, renaming it ("magic" is an anti-rational explanation of what must be a perfectly explainable set of new physical laws), fitting it into the same type of classifications and analysis as any other physical phenomena.
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Offline vector

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Re: RoleMaster magic comes into a previously nonmagic world
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2016, 11:56:41 AM »
Well, I cannot reveal too much about that yet, because some players might be reading and we don't want to give them any spoilers, but stay tuned. ^^

Thanks for the reply! All very interesting. I will be curious to see how it turns out. All in all, a great idea for a campaign.

Offline Thot

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Re: RoleMaster magic comes into a previously nonmagic world
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2016, 02:10:59 AM »
We're going to have our first session later today, due to time constraints and sickness with only 3 out of 5 players, though. The player characters so far are:

  •   A soutwestern silver elven baroness from the americanesque colonies in Korannia. She is one of those who think slavery should never have been abolished. She is on a multiweek visit to her granddaughter's marriage to (gasp! the scandal!) a black elf. She is 250 years old, extremely rich, and prefers fencing weapons. No points left to learn magic quickly, as all the nobility and wealth were expensive. Skill-wise, she is a merchant/land administrator and a fencer with rapier and main-gauche dagger. She has a long-standing business contact with the viceroy of the black elven vicekingdom - her cotton is just better than from elsewhere, and the viceking regularly buys it en gros and has been doing so since long before he rose to his current position.
  • A black elven commoner of about 100 years of age who is a ranger of sorts to the Black Elven viceking. Currently he is in charge of the capital's city park, but he has also proven to be extremely competent when dealing with bandits of various sorts. Classic archer and sword fighter in light armor. A few points left to spend them on learning magic quickly later on.
  • An about 300 years old dragonman scholar from the japan-inspired vicekingdom. The character isn't preapred yet (we'll be doing that before the session), but that's the concept. His connection to the viceroy hasn't been established yet. The player will likely hold back a few points for learning magic quickly.
  • A 25 year old human jester and entertainer at the viceroy's court who is also a competent fighter and buddy of the palace guard's captain. Has proven to the viceroy that he is quite capable of handling criminals if the need arises. (Player will be absent today, as he is ill.)
  • A black elf of roughly 100 years of age and noble descent, but with no fortune. He earns a living from, uh, getting rid of politically or economically inconvenient individuals, and sometimes from aquiring vital information. The viceroy has employed him more than once to solve certain problems for him.  (Player will be absent today as he has to earn some money in the real world... in a legal and morally unambigious way!)

We'll start at the fourth day of the sixth month of the year 998 since the foundation of the High Elven Kingdom, about 200 years after the unification of the world under the Emperor's rule, in the black elven vicekingdom's capital of Erinar.

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Re: RoleMaster magic comes into a previously nonmagic world
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2016, 11:58:26 AM »
Cool and interesting mix of characters. I will be following this to see how things turn out.

Thanks for the info.

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Re: RoleMaster magic comes into a previously nonmagic world
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2016, 05:05:58 PM »
Our first session just ended.

It all started with the player characters - by chance - all observing a con man who tried to convince people for money that he could create rabbits out of hats. They easily spotted how he did it, called the guards, and then went on to do their business.

Later that day, just after sundown, several fireballs were heard and seen in the sky. This was highly unusual, but the scholars everywhere were quick to point out that meteors have been seen before, and are no cause of concern. About half an hour later, though, white dust started to rain down from the sky - dust that was incredibly fine and seemed to vanish over time! A few hours later, it was gone, and the night continued undisturbed.

However, the next day (5.6.998), weird things started to happen all across the town... a strange naked elven man with wild hair appeared in the city's park and tried to convince people that nature rewards the strong, and that the weak should serve the strong. The ranger met that man and denied his assurances that the strong should rule over the weak - in fact he said the strong should protect the weak, which made the strange man walk away in disgust.

The  dragonman physician of noble descent walked through the city and encountered an elven woman who repaired an elaborate, broken wooden toy with her bare hands (my interpretation of the level 1 alchemist spell "work wood"). He talked to that woman, and she agreed to teach him this if he paid the obscene amount of 1800 silber pennies (average characters have 2500 silver pennies as their starting equipment value).

The baroness rode through town later that day and discovered a crowd around a man who promised to heal people if they were willing to swear allegiance to the "godly family of the silver light" and follow their rules of love, friendship and cooperation. The desparate did, and were actually healed, even from the most serious injuries and illnesses.  The baroness decided to have some scholars investigate this, and brought them to her host's city house, where the scholars could find no explanation for the wonders that poor elf performed. So the host proposed to show this to the viceroy, and this was presented to the court as an evening pasttime... but it turned out that the preacher actually could heal... the viceroy was puzzled, but decided that healing the most seriously sick people in town could hardly do harm, and sent the preacher to a hospital.

The next morning, though, he appointed a commitee, headed by the silver elven baroness, to investigate this whole mess further, so that they might find out what the hell is going on. And they investigated. They found: The weird man with the wild hair had started to attract followers in the park, while the preacher at the city hospital actually helped a lot of people, but also made them swear allegiance to his godly family. It became clear that the man in the park was a follower of a rivalling pantheon, the "godly horde".

There was a bald elf who wanted the viceroy warned about an "evil master of will" he had seen in a vision and who would try to get near to e viceroy to take control of the vicekingdom - the baroness decided to hire him to teach her about his magic, which was different from the woman that trained the doctor. As payment, however, he merely demanded a self-made daisy chain from flowrs she had plucked herself. (She tried to cheat him with one made by a servant. He saw through it.)

They also found out that all those who could work magic seemed to not know anything before the previous night.

On the evening of the 6th day of the 6th month of the year 998, they reported back to the viceroy, who hadn't received any news from the other vicekingdoms yet, but was alarmed by this recent abundance of unexplainable phenomena. He ordered them to carry out further investigations.