Topic: Super Fast Combat System

[Druss_the_Legend]

has anyone used the Super Fast Combat System from RMCIII?

I am currently GM of a rolemaster campaign on Roll20 and I am considering using the optional Super Fast Combat System for resolving large scale combat. Combatants make one attack roll and need a total result of 75+ to hit. This system does away with weapons tables alltogther and instead uses hit dice for weapon damage. Battles in rolemaster can quickly be reduced to slow motion, especially with six or more combatants. I have tested this Super Fast Combat System previously and found the time spent adding dice was the biggest limitation (we spent lots of time physically rolling and adding up dice!). Rolling dice for weapon damage should be fairly quick with Roll20's macros.

Here is how this combat system works. Combatants roll 1d100, add their OB, apply any modifiers (eg. flank, armour type modifier), THEN subtract defenders DB (natural DB from Quickness stat mod, parry etc). With a total result of 75+ they hit and roll normal damage, on a total result of 125+ they hit and gain immediate advantage for damage [roll damage twice and take highest result]. On a total result of 150+ they hit and gain immediate double advantage for damage [roll damage three times and take the highest result].

When using this system, weapons inflict a large amount of damage! Dagger (3d12), Shortsword (2d20+1d12), Broadsword/Scimitar (5d12), Rapier (1d10+2d12), Two-handed sword (8d12), Light crossbow (2d10+4d8).
Fumble ranges are the same. Criticals occur on a roll of 96+ however at skill ranks 12, 14, 16, 18, 20 etc this chance is increased by 1% every two ranks. For example at 16 skill ranks you deliver a critical strike on a roll of 93+. A critical strike always hits, regardless of modifiers. Weapons have an OB modifier for each Armour Range (AT1-4, AT5-8, AT9-12, AT13-16, AT17-20) eg. Shortsword is +20/+30/+20/-15/-35, Rapier is +24/+34/+21/-5/-30, Scimitar is +10/+25/+20/-10/-25, Two-handed sword is +18/+33/+28/+5/-15, Light Cross-bow is +8/+25/+20/+0/-25.

I have already made a few tweeks to these combat rules based on need and experience. The rules suggest 2x damage at 125+ and 3x damage at 175+. With the compounding effects of adrenal move strength or frenzy which already double the damage given this was quickly going to skew damage. I have also simplified the armour type modifiers for each weapon, the rules give you 20 different armour mods, one for each armour type, this was going to result in more table referencing which I am keen to avoid. I chose the most commonly encountered armour types at each range. eg. Armour Types 1,5,9,15,20). Finally the critical strike rules for this system suggested using 10% of your OB as a measure of chance of doing a crit. Using skill rank gives players another incentive to increase their ranks in a weapon beyond rank 15, is a fast way to generate a % chance of a crit for NPC's based on their level (a level 6 NPC fighter/rogue/assassin will crit on 95+, a level 10 NPC fighter/rogue/assassin will crit on 91+) and avoids the situation of variable OB from half parrying altering your % chance of delivering a crit.

[Thot]

I had totally forgotten about this alternative combat system im RMCIII. Just looked it up again.

Well, it is quicker, that's for sure. But I was recently told that those who play RM are drawn into it by the critical hit system as-is, with no modifications required. So I would guess that super-fast combat system never got any popular.

But it doesn't really offer any use for all those detailed healing spells, or does it?

[Druss_the_Legend]

I had totally forgotten about this alternative combat system im RMCIII. Just looked it up again.

Well, it is quicker, that's for sure. But I was recently told that those who play RM are drawn into it by the critical hit system as-is, with no modifications required. So I would guess that super-fast combat system never got any popular.

But it doesn't really offer any use for all those detailed healing spells, or does it?

The system as it stands simplifies critical tables but I am still using the standard crit tables. Open ended results are a crit and the skill rank of the attacker increases this cance (+1% per two skill ranks above Rank 10). I guess i'm using a bit of a hybrid version. Its something my current batch of players are keen to try. 
severity of criticals dealt will likely be something like...
A = 75-89
B = 90-104
C = 105-119
D = 120-134
E =  135-150

As for healing, in my campaign I am quite liberal with the use of healing herbs but I can see that the pcs will need to invest in some additional healing with the damage output this system can dish out.

[Spectre771]

We did try this out a for one of our "grander campaigns" as larger parties do bog down the combat system as mentioned.  Some players didn't like the mix of dice needed for damage vs. what an attack table stated.   

* - to counter that, we agreed to group weapons into very broad categories to limit the number of attack tables needed.  1H and 2H slash, 1H and 2H Crush, Bow, CB.  6 table to reference instead of a special attack table for each player's weapon, but we did this rarely. 

When I'm GM-ing, I personally like groups of 2-4 players.  6 is OK, but is nice with a  2nd GM to keep things moving along with larger combat scenes. The grand campaign we did had 9 players and the fast combat system did help out quite a bit.

[Druss_the_Legend]

We did try this out a for one of our "grander campaigns" as larger parties do bog down the combat system as mentioned.  Some players didn't like the mix of dice needed for damage vs. what an attack table stated.   

* - to counter that, we agreed to group weapons into very broad categories to limit the number of attack tables needed.  1H and 2H slash, 1H and 2H Crush, Bow, CB.  6 table to reference instead of a special attack table for each player's weapon, but we did this rarely. 

When I'm GM-ing, I personally like groups of 2-4 players.  6 is OK, but is nice with a  2nd GM to keep things moving along with larger combat scenes. The grand campaign we did had 9 players and the fast combat system did help out quite a bit.

I can see how the dice might be a bit swingy in terms of damage rolled (for example 2d20 + 1d12 gives a short sword a very broad range) but im hoping the 'advantage' and 'double advantage' gained from higher attack rolls (125+ and 150+) will take care of that. For advantage they will get to roll damage twice and for double advantage its three times and then take the best total damage score).

My players currently have a large number of NPC allies (5-6 NPC plus 3 players) which makes for a big battle when they run into enemy factions. The last battle had 14 combatants which is just too many variables going on to get thru a battle in under 2hrs!

[Druss_the_Legend]

The system mostly ignores the effects of amour for reducing damage which is something id like to look at. Here are two ideas im considering.

Armour will reduce damage dealt and will depend on the armour range.
OPTION #1: -0/-5/-10/-15/-20 vs melee attacks and -0/-0/-5/-10/-10 vs bow attacks.
OPTION#2:
AT 1-4, no damage reduction
AT 5-8, roll one less damage dice (lowest dice type)
AT 9-12, roll one less damage dice (highest dice type)
AT 13-16, roll two less damage dice (one of each dice type)
AT 17-20, roll two less damage dice (highest dice types)

thoughts?

[Druss_the_Legend]

Amour is still a wriggley issue in this system. Imo the system as it stands pretty much ignores armour protection and its ability to reduce damage from incoming attacks. I am looking for an added rule that tweeks this combat system so it more closely reflects the original weapon tables. Generally speaking higher armour types are easier to hit but weapons do less damage. Here are some options, one of which I am thinking of adding to the Super Fast Combat System to allow for this.
 
OPTION #1: Armour will reduce damage dealt and will depend on the armour range. -0/-5/-10/-15/-20 vs melee attacks and -0/-0/-5/-10/-10 vs bow attacks.

OPTION #2:
AT 1-4, no damage reduction
AT 5-8, roll one less damage dice (lowest dice type)
AT 9-12, roll one less damage dice (highest dice type)
AT 13-16, roll two less damage dice (one of each dice type)
AT 17-20, roll two less damage dice (highest dice types)

OPTION #3
AT 1-4, no damage reduction
AT 5-20, subtract the armour type from total damage done.
*Note. An attack that hits will always deal at least ONE point of damage, regardless of the reduction from armour.

OPTION #4:
AT 1-4, no damage reduction
AT 5-8, subtract amour type from damage
AT 9-12, subtract amour type from damage (eg. AT10 reduces damage by 10)
AT 13-16, subtract 2x amour type from damage (eg. AT15 reduces damage by 30)
AT 17-20, subtract 2x amour type from damage
*Note. An attack that hits will always deal at least ONE point of damage, regardless of the reduction from armour.

**For each of these options, a critical result ignores the armour reduction. This gives the weaker weapons a way to bypass large reductions of damage from a lucky/precision strike through the armour.

[Druss_the_Legend]

***Certain weapons and attacks that inflict puncture damage have half the normal armour reduction (bows, rapier and dagger)

[Druss_the_Legend]

wonder if anyone uses different house rules for armour in rolemaster. imo the armour rules are needing a revamp.

[Thot]

wonder if anyone uses different house rules for armour in rolemaster. imo the armour rules are needing a revamp.

The next iteration of RoleMaster is going to fix many of the issues, from the playtest files I have seen. That said, I honestly believe that just dropping the armor penalties to maneuvers and and DB, and just applying regular encumbrance rules to armor, fixes what is left quite elegantly.

[darb]

I think the new bladestorm rule set could be fairly easily used for quick, more skirmish style combat.  It comes from RM and has fairly good tracking for armor and spell effects.  I did a test conversion for my HARP characters and it worked well.  Plus I think it is a hella' fun system in its own right and the new edition by Sebastian is a marked improvement on the old.

[Druss_the_Legend]

I think the new bladestorm rule set could be fairly easily used for quick, more skirmish style combat.  It comes from RM and has fairly good tracking for armor and spell effects.  I did a test conversion for my HARP characters and it worked well.  Plus I think it is a hella' fun system in its own right and the new edition by Sebastian is a marked improvement on the old.

sounds cool.

[terefang]

i remember having tried SFCS 20 years ago in a different universe.

but as it happens this particular universe moved on to use the weapon tables from MERP instead.

and later those MERP tables got extended for high rolls/bonus (150-300) using statistical math from SFCS.
(we had a bunch of mathematicians playing in this universe ;-))

[Druss_the_Legend]

I have made my own variant of the SFCS. Here are details.

Combat Procedure. Combatants roll 1d100, add their OB, apply any modifiers (eg. flank, armour type modifier), then subtract defenders DB (natural DB from Quickness stat mod, parry etc). With a total result of 75+ they hit and roll normal damage. On a total result of 150+ they hit and gain immediate advantage for damage [roll damage twice and take the highest result].

Damage summary:
75+ = hit with normal damage
150+ = hit with damage advantage (roll total damage twice and take highest total)
Combat stats St/St/Ag and Ag/Ag/St may add additional damage.

Critical Strikes
Criticals occur on a roll of 96+ however at skill ranks 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20 etc this chance is increased by 1% every two ranks. For example at 16 skill ranks you deliver a critical strike on a roll of 92+. A critical strike always hits, regardless of modifiers.

Weapon Effectiveness vs Different Armour Types
Weapons have an OB modifier for each Armour Range (AT1-4, AT5-8, AT9-12, AT13-16, AT17-20)
Shortsword +20/+30/+20/-15/-35,
Rapier +25/+35/+20/-5/-30,
Scimitar +10/+25/+20/-10/-25,
Two-handed sword +20/+35/+30/+5/-15,
Light Cross-bow +10/+25/+20/+0/-25.

Weapon Damage Dice (Skill Rank 1-10/Skill Rank 11-20/Skill Rank 21-30)
Dagger 3d8/3d10/3d12
Falchion 4d12/4d12+1d10/4d12+2d10
Hand Axe 3d10+1d8/4d10+1d8/4d10+2d8
Rapier 1d20+2d8/1d20+2d10/1d20+2d12
Scimitar 2d10+2d12/4d12/5d12
Broadsword 2d10+2d12/4d12/5d12
Shortsword 2d20+1d8/2d20+1d10/2d20+1d12
Bare Fist 1d20
Club 1d12+2d8/1d12+3d8/1d12+4d8
Mace 4d8+1d6/5d8+1d6/6d8
Morning Star 4d12+1d8/4d12+1d10/5d12+1d10
Warhammer 2d12+2d8/2d13+3d8/2d12+4d8
Whip 2d12+1d10/3d12/2d12+2d10
Bola 3d8/4d8/5d8
Composite Bow 2d10+2d8/2d10+3d8/3d10+3d8
Heavy Crossbow 2d12+3d10/3d12+2d10/3d12+3d10
Light Crossbow 1d10+4d8/2d10+3d8/2d10+4d8
Longbow 4d10/4d10+1d8/4d10+2d8
Shortbow 4d8/2d10+2d8/3d10+2d8
Sling 4d8/4d8+1d6/5d8+1d6
Battleaxe 4d12+2d10/5d12+2d10/6d12+2d10
Flail 4d12+2d10/4d12+3d10/4d12+4d10
War Mattock 2d12+4d10/2d12+5d10/2d12+6d10
Quarterstaff 1d20+3d10/1d20+3d12/1d20+4d12
2 Handed Sword 6d12/7d12/8d12
Javelin 1d12+3d10/2d12+2d10/1d12+4d10
Lance 2d20+4d10/2d20+4d12/2d20+5d12
Polearm 6d10/7d10/8d10
Spear 1d20+3d8/1d20+4d8/1d20+4d10
MA Strikes 4d8/5d8/6d8
MA Sweeps 5d4/5d6/6d6
Increased fumble range for unskilled or novice combatants
Less than 5 skill ranks with any weapon doubles the fumble range.
No skill ranks with that weapon doubles and adds 5 to the fumble range.

Melee Combat Damage Bonus from Weapon Stat (ST/ST/AG)
1/5 of attackers weapon stat total bonus is added to damage.
For example Max the Fighter has ST/ST/AG total bonus of +20. This gives him an additional +4 to damage for melee attacks.

Ranged Combat Damage Bonus from Weapon Stat (AG/AG/ST)
This bonus will apply for close range attacks from bows and thrown weapons.
1/5 of attackers weapon stat total bonus is added to damage.

Damage Bonus from superior non-magical or magical weapons
Non-magical weapons of superior quality add 1/10 of their bonus to damage
Magical weapons add 1/5 of their bonus to damage.
For example a +10 non-magical sword gives +1 to damage, whereas a +10 magical sword adds +2 to damage.
Note. Slaying weapons the rarest of magical weapons add their full bonus to damage when used against the special target. eg. a +15 Dragonslaying sword would add +15 to damage versus dragons.

Damage Reduction from wearing armour
AT 1-4, no damage reduction
AT 5-20, subtract the armour type from total damage done
*Note. An attack that hits will always deal at least ONE point of damage, regardless of the reduction from armour.
**Critical strike results ignores the armour reduction. This gives the weaker weapons a way to bypass large reductions of damage from a lucky/precision strike through the armour.

[Druss_the_Legend]

Doing away with the weapons tables left the thorny issue of armour in need of a revamp as well.
subtracting AT from total damage done really improves armour protection dramatically at the higher armour types.

For the system to be fast there needs to be less criticals. the SFCS deals more damage and less crits. This got me thinking about skill ranks for weapons. Shouldn't a more skilled fighter have increased chances of dealing a crit? the SFCS bases critical chance on OB. This is problematic because of the variable OB combatants use in battle, it changes and therefore the chances of doing a crit will as well which slows down the battle as you recalculate things. Basing the chances of a crit on skill rank was a way i could show incremental increases in critical chances without adding complexity or number crunching.

I also added new rules for increased fumble ranges for novice weapon users, damage mods for STAT bonuses AND damage mods for superior/magical weapons 

[Druss_the_Legend]

Lastly I added a progression for damage based on skill rank. The system as presented had a standard amount of damage dice for each weapon that did not change. I created 3 levels of damage. Up to rank 10, ranks 11-20 and ranks 21-30.

With the incremental increase in chance to dealing a critical, even after rank 21 there is still incentive to keep increasing skill ranks. At skill rank 22 they deal a crit on a roll of 89+. Criticals bypass armour totally, so no damage reduction at all. Has me thinking about another project of mine that uses Weapon Mastery Skill picks. I think something like 'Precision Strike' mastery skill could be developed that would allow certain weapons to bypass armour reduction capabilities.

[jdale]

I think something like 'Precision Strike' mastery skill could be developed that would allow certain weapons to bypass armour reduction capabilities.

Rolemaster has traditionally (prior to RMU) had the problem that armor didn't provide enough benefit, I would be cautious undermining its value.

[Druss_the_Legend]

I think something like 'Precision Strike' mastery skill could be developed that would allow certain weapons to bypass armour reduction capabilities.

Rolemaster has traditionally (prior to RMU) had the problem that armor didn't provide enough benefit, I would be cautious undermining its value.

The Super Fast Combat System does not give armour any additional benefit/protection other that modifications to OB. eg. Shortsword +20/+30/+20/-15/-35. With the lessened chance of dealing criticals with this modified combat system the additional armour protection of subtracting AT from damage makes armour better not worse.

Bypassing armour requires an open-ended roll for up to skill rank 9. 95+ for skill rank 10, 94+ for skill rank 12, 93+ for skill rank 14, 92+ for skill rank 16, 91+ for skill rank 18 and 90+ for skill rank 20. I dont see that as undermining armour, actually the opposite because of the lesser number of crits this system delivers.

If in testing the effect of bypassing armour when a crit is dealt proves overpowered ill give crits a chance of bypassing armour so it isnt automatic (5% per level or 5% per skill rank or just a standard 25% chance or something similar).