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Offline juza

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changing profession
« on: November 10, 2016, 04:59:41 AM »
Hi guys,
I started this topic because one of my players, a 5th level warrior monk, asked me if he could change profession and  at the next level will start to become a Magician. He have 90 in the prime stats of the new profession and actually I have no good arguments to not allow him to do it.
What do you think about this?
Thank you for yours advices.

Offline Peter R

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Re: changing profession
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2016, 05:55:57 AM »
Profession in RM is a loaded word. It is not just your job description but it is meant to describe the great many years of training and shaping of yoru whole world view. That is why the skill costs for just about everything change from one profession to another.

So unless your warrior monk is prepared to not go up to that next level for about 15 years then the answer is probably no. It opens an entire can of worms as well as if you allow this how can you justify that last week it cost him only a few DPs to buy some of the core Monk skills but this week those costs have doubled or tripled, it is the same person doing the same practice of the same skills?

HARP does allow multi classes but the professions in RM are much more restrictive.
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Offline juza

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Re: changing profession
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2016, 06:58:41 AM »
he thinks that the skill costs mirror the time you spend in exercise in some abilities. as a warrior monk now he spends a lot of time in practing martial arts and self disciple abilitis, and then he will spend the same time in reading books and learning magic. So the skills cost of a profession do not mirror a self inclination but the time you spend styuding or practing a particular skill.

Offline Peter R

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Re: changing profession
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2016, 09:57:04 AM »
That is OK, what he thinks is largely irrelevant as he is not running the game.

Of most importance is do you as GM want people to do this? If the answer is no then tell him that he can learn open lists to 5th level if he pays the points to learn them. Take it or leave it.

If you are happy for him to do this and you accept than none of your players will probably ever play a straight pure spell caster again then you just need to work it into the story. In your world can someone learn magic without any sort of teacher? If not then there is a quest right there to find a suitable master. That master may then make demands to prove that the character is serious.

I would hit the character with some heavy penalties. I would strip him of all his professional bonuses from his skills, after all he is changing his entire world view from one centred on striving for human excellence and discipline to opening his mind and emotions to the possibilities of the entire universe.

I would probably only give the character half his development points when he levels up because he is changing profession.

It strikes me that 4th level is exactly the most optimal time to do this. He gas probably bought some key skills at 2 ranks a level for 5 levels which means that diminishing returns would be about to kick in.

I would make the quest to find a teacher prepared to take him on last a few levels worth of advancement just to see how he manages going up levels as a monk when he knows he wants to be a magician.
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Offline jdale

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Re: changing profession
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2016, 10:05:07 AM »
Mixing professions can potentially create significant abuses. Compare a character built as a warrior monk + magician to an essence monk semi-spellcaster. The former gains advantages by buying a lot of skills at the specialist costs.

I would contemplate allowing a profession change if 1) the character has already started buying skills from the new profession at their higher cost, 2) the character is already behaving as and acting in the role of their new profession, and 3) they are moving from a specialist profession towards a semi or hybrid profession that combines their old profession with something new. So, for example here, I would want the character to start learning magic as a warrior monk (this entails a DP cost which helps balance things out), I would want their roleplaying and party role to start shifting towards being about magic more than combat (so the profession change is the result of his behavior change rather than its cause), and I would let him shift to a profession like an essence based monk but not to magician.
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Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: changing profession
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2016, 10:44:02 AM »
I've typically allowed Profession changes, but I'm also in the minority as I don't view Professions as the same "lifepath" other RM users do. Comes from tweaking RM to modern settings, I suspect: the "Profession as lifepath" model doesn't work as well there.

When someone in my games changes Profession, they go back to first level. They don't get profession bonuses in the new Profession (that's my only real concession to the "Profession as lifepath" model, but they don't lose the existing bonuses), and they get HALF DPs until they reach their former level (so a character who switches at 4th level only gets half DPs until they reach 4th level in the new Profession). If you're in RM2 they'd have to earn double XPs to reach second level in the new profession (no free 10,000 XPs). Since Spell Points in stock RM2 come from stats, the odds are an Arms type switching to magic will have issues getting SPs anyhow, but you could always prohibit them from casting until they reach level 2 (they have to master the techniques or whatever).
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Offline Hurin

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Re: changing profession
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2016, 10:52:55 AM »
I would not allow any change of profession. Profession in Rolemaster works a little differently than some games, especially games that allow multiclassing. Profession in Rolemaster represents 'training and inclinations in early life.' [RM2 Character Law, p. 33; emphasis mine]. RM2 also goes on to say that the Magician finds spells easy to learn because he has 'spent much of his early life studying spells'. So Profession is not just what you are currently studying; it is what you studied in your formative years that made you the person you are today. You can change what you are currently studying, but you can't change what you studied during those formative years.

Games like Dungeons and Dragons need multiclassing because they have hard caps on what your characters can do. Fighters simply can't learn spells unless they multiclass (let's leave feats out of it for now, for simplicity's sake). But Rolemaster has only soft caps. Rolemaster fighters can learn spells-- they just have to pay a higher cost for them. So Rolemaster doesn't need multiclassing. And in fact multiclassing contradicts the RAW Rolemaster definition of class.

If you are happy allowing your player to multiclass, that is fine for you as a houserule. Anyone of course is welcome to change the rules for their own game, if that makes sense for them. Just keep in mind it will allow his character to become much more powerful than other characters, and that it contradicts the RAW Rolemaster definition of class.
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Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: changing profession
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2016, 10:57:58 AM »
And in fact multiclassing contradicts the Rolemaster definition of class.

If you are happy allowing your player to multiclass, that is fine for you as a houserule. Just keep in mind it will allow his character to become much more powerful than other characters, and that it contradicts the basic Rolemaster definition of class.

And that definition in my experience is what makes RM so difficult to use "as is" outside of fantasy settings. I've always found it interesting that so many people will toss just about everything relating to RM out the window (Prime Requisites, XPs, and so on) but remain so fixated on this one thing.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: changing profession
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2016, 11:17:51 AM »
And in fact multiclassing contradicts the Rolemaster definition of class.

If you are happy allowing your player to multiclass, that is fine for you as a houserule. Just keep in mind it will allow his character to become much more powerful than other characters, and that it contradicts the basic Rolemaster definition of class.

And that definition in my experience is what makes RM so difficult to use "as is" outside of fantasy settings. I've always found it interesting that so many people will toss just about everything relating to RM out the window (Prime Requisites, XPs, and so on) but remain so fixated on this one thing.

I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with changing the definition of profession, and I am perfectly willing to contemplate whether the definition of profession needs to be changed. I am open to the idea. I just wanted to outline the Rules As Written in the original version of the game, and explain why allowing a change of profession contradicts it.

So what I am saying is you can certainly change the definition of profession. It will however necessitate some significant further changes in the game because of the balance issues: a 10th level character who has spent 5 levels as a Warrior Monk and 5 levels as a Magician will be much more powerful than a character who has spent 10 levels as either of those two classes. The hybrid character will be much better rounded, and be competent in both spells and melee abilities. Trying to balance monsters that have been able to multiclass will be less effective too, if you are trying to balance them by level. A Demon that is a 10th level fighter/ 10th level sorcerer will be much more of a challenge for the party than a Demon that is a 20th level fighter.
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Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: changing profession
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2016, 11:33:23 AM »
To an extent, perhaps, but if you're taking RAW stuff, a fighter who converts to Magician will be seriously hindered by the restrictions on inorganic material with regard to casting (no armor, weapons seriously limited, and so on). Also, most characters who switch (unless they had spectacular rolls) will be hindered in terms of DPs because most players who take Arms initially use the SP stats as dumping grounds for their less-attractive rolls. And a magician who converts to Arms will have difficulty casting (due to the inorganic material stuff already mentioned) and wouldn't continue to gain SPs and would find spell list acquisition seriously curtailed (once the costs shift to those of a Fighter).

But I digress. I've found it workable with minimal issues...in no small part because it normally happens at lower levels. Most players have no desire to start over at first level with half DPs if they've made it to tenth level in a profession. I get that it may not work for others, but newcomers should know that some of us have found it both possible and workable within its limits.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: changing profession
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2016, 11:57:26 AM »
Well, I will defer to your experience here because i have not playtested that. I agree with what you say about there being limitations on armor and things like that. Where i suspect you will run into problems is with the medium and light fighters and Mentalists, who can combine effective arms with spells that are not much affected by armor limitations. Say a warrior monk with adrenal defense takes a level or two in magician, and can now pump up his already impressive DB by 35 more points with spells like shield and blur at a trivial cost. I think there you are going to run into some balance issues.
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Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: changing profession
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2016, 12:12:54 PM »
Your example is valid, but I'd control it by restricting access to trainers (or spell lists). Keep in mind, too, that under my system a spell caster stops gaining SPs when they abandon the casting Profession. So if the warrior monk jumps to magician she'd lose cheap combat skills, and if it's a magician shifting over he'd be capped in SPs to what he had prior to the change. That and gaining new spell lists would be difficult. Under RM2 I also capped casting at the last level gained as a caster (so if you learned the list to 10th level but jumped at fourth, you'd only be able to cast spells from 1st to 4th level).

I always figured that balance was to a degree something the GM has almost total control over. In your example, I'd just throw a Monastic Lich at said PC...
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Offline Peter R

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Re: changing profession
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2016, 01:30:00 PM »
I don't use professions at all, everyone is No Profession so this would never be an issue.

I agree very much with jdale in that I would suggest that the character would have to be living the life almost before making the change.

The trainer and quests I was suggesting earlier were to give the character time to develop that intermediate stage.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: changing profession
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2016, 01:41:37 PM »
Well, you've given me at least food for thought.

I might try to build a character to see if I could make one that I would consider unbalanced/overpowered. I think it will depend on the system too: in RMU, characters tend to have a lot more PowerPoints, which would make it easier to exploit the multiclassing. And of course professional bonuses work differently in RMU, so you'd have to figure out how to handle those when you switch classes. I expect there is a fair bit of room here for exploits, especially lightly armored Arms users who take a level or two of a caster class to gain access to some powerful utility spells. But maybe I'm wrong, and I haven't tested it.
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Offline Warl

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Re: changing profession
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2016, 02:09:46 PM »
I allowed it back in the 80s and 90s, But learned to do it with some severe limitations.

#1 they had to find a teacher.
#2 they had to spend DPs in some "Required by Me" Skills and spells list acquisitions  at the Cost of their Current Profession. (2 ranks in each skill)
#3 Once they completed #1 and #2, they Moved to the No Profession profession and had to buy at minimum 2 ranks in each Required skill and spell list aquistion at the No Profession cost. Only then could they then move to the new profession.

#4 at Each New level of No Profession and New profession, I made rolls for lost "skill" in the Old Professions Core skills, Each rank Lost would return only the Dps for buying 1 rank by old profession cost back to the character.
#5 Once the new Profession was achieved, Only then tdi they get to start switch Level bonuses. At a rate of -1 to an old Profession level bonus (minimum 0) and +1 to a New profession Level bonus (to the max of that professions normal bonus) Per level until Max bonus is achieved.

So it took several levels to make the switch, and it came at a cost to the Old skills
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Offline Hurin

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Re: changing profession
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2016, 02:32:18 PM »
Interesting Warl. What problems did you find that led you to make those rules?

I think I can already see one that would be a significant problem in RMU, due to RMU's skill costs being so much less varied than RM2's: players could switch classes just to get access to new base lists at a trivial cost. So for example my Mentalist could say he wants to switch to Lay Healer. The skill costs for most skills are virtually identical, so this won't really adversely affect him in the way it would have in RM2 (which had individual skill costs), and he will now have access to the best healing spells in the game. Sure, he has to find a teacher... but from what I am gathering, most of you would allow that, so I don't see that as a significant obstacle. The same could be said of a Ranger who wants Paladin spells, or a Cleric who wants Druid spells, or an Illusionist who wants Magician spells. Have your Illusionist take his first few levels in Magician (till he gets firebolt), and then you can take all the rest in Illusionist. This wasn't so much of a problem in RM2, when skill costs were individualized and varied greatly by class. But when classes are essentially just different archetypes with more or less the same costs in most categories, you set up a system where the costs of switching classes are minimal. Why pay the closed/restricted costs (6/8 or more) for the spell lists rather than simply switching classes for a level or two and gaining the spells at a cost of 1/2?
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Offline Hurin

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Re: changing profession
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2016, 03:10:02 PM »
I do like your idea though Warl of requiring one level of No Profession, as the character transitions to the new profession.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: changing profession
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2016, 03:53:25 PM »
Or why not do this? Play your Illusionist up to level 5. At level 6, instead of spending 6/8 to buy two ranks in the Magician's list Fire Law, just switch to Magician and pay 1/2/2/2/2/2 to get 6 ranks, all the way up to Firebolt. You'll save something on the order of 31 Development points that way: instead of paying 6/8, 6/8, 6/8 to get to Firebolt, you now pay just 1/2/2/2/2/2. Presto, you've now got a character with the best spells from both classes, and you've saved 31 development points to do it.
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Offline Warl

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Re: changing profession
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2016, 05:43:01 PM »
the problems I experienced were exactly what has been mentioned before, Trying to have Characters that could do Everything well.

The players would avoid developing skills they wanted until they could switch to a profession that had a lower cost. All the while dumping every point they had into the lowest cost skills of the class they currently had.

Especially was bad in the Warrior monk/High Warrior Monk Switch to Magician or Magician/Caster switch to High Warrior Monk.

I even tried the " to add a new profession, Average the costs of the old profession with the new Profession" Route. and that just became a head ache...

Today I just stick with the "you can't" rule and if you want to develop Skills/spell lists, you are stuck with the Life path you chose.

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Offline Warl

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Re: changing profession
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2016, 05:47:50 PM »
Or why not do this? Play your Illusionist up to level 5. At level 6, instead of spending 6/8 to buy two ranks in the Magician's list Fire Law, just switch to Magician and pay 1/2/2/2/2/2 to get 6 ranks, all the way up to Firebolt. You'll save something on the order of 31 Development points that way: instead of paying 6/8, 6/8, 6/8 to get to Firebolt, you now pay just 1/2/2/2/2/2. Presto, you've now got a character with the best spells from both classes, and you've saved 31 development points to do it.


Which is exactly the problem of killing the balance in the game.

Hell He doesn't need the Magician Base lists to get access to a fire bolt. He could develop the Warrior mage spell list (from RM2) Elemental Ways and get access to all Bolt spells + Stun cloud, Cold Ball and fire ball, vacuum, fog, Projected light and all other sorts of fun elemental spells.
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