Author Topic: Miniatures or Theatre of the Mind?  (Read 2711 times)

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Offline Hurin

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Miniatures or Theatre of the Mind?
« on: December 06, 2016, 02:01:38 PM »
There's an interesting poll on the EN World forums, asking players whether they use miniatures or not. As of now, about 60% say the do use miniatures, while 40% say they use the Theatre of the Mind. So I figured I'd start one just for Rolemaster players.

Which system do you use?
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Offline Peter R

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Re: Miniatures or Theatre of the Mind?
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2016, 02:48:17 PM »
I haven’t used miniatures since I was probably 16 or so.
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Offline jdale

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Re: Miniatures or Theatre of the Mind?
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2016, 03:09:52 PM »
I like the clarity that miniatures provide about the situation. Otherwise there are too many questions about who is where, what blocks what, etc. This is less of a concern, I think, in a rules-light system, but we even used them when we were playing Mage.

Also, miniatures are basically toys, and that's a plus too. :)  I've designed encounters around particular miniatures that I liked just so I could use them.

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Offline Spectre771

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Re: Miniatures or Theatre of the Mind?
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2016, 03:16:10 PM »
I do theater of the mind.  If I have to use a visual, I'll make a very rough map with just general locations (circles or x's) of the targets or persons in relation to each other.  I purposely don't draw it to scale and I don't let the players try to use it for measuring distances or calculating any specifics. When it comes to a dungeon crawl, I'll roll the player's Cartography skill and I'll rough out a map based on how well they roll and hand it to the player.  That's led to some fun "emergency retreats."  8)
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Offline Peter R

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Re: Miniatures or Theatre of the Mind?
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2016, 03:32:34 PM »
Yes, I am inclined to do a quick top down sketch and a side on profile to give the lay of the land. The actual terrain I can sketch out while I am prepping and then just mark the figures in real time during play.
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Offline Voriig Kye

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Re: Miniatures or Theatre of the Mind?
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2016, 05:18:28 PM »
I will normally try to avoid miniatures except for combat with more than 1 o 2 enemies.

But the players complain that my explanations do not allow them to understand the specific details that they would use to make optimized decisions in combat.
I know, I could force it my way, but when you have 4 players and all of them just love to make every calculation before each decision, going against that would be going against "having fun".  :o

Offline Witchking20k

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Re: Miniatures or Theatre of the Mind?
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2016, 07:38:30 PM »
Sometimes I'll design encounters around neat new minis I get.  Plus I like to use movement a lot so that lends to using a map and minis too. 
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Offline Peter R

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Re: Miniatures or Theatre of the Mind?
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2016, 02:18:11 AM »
I will normally try to avoid miniatures except for combat with more than 1 o 2 enemies.

But the players complain that my explanations do not allow them to understand the specific details that they would use to make optimized decisions in combat.
I know, I could force it my way, but when you have 4 players and all of them just love to make every calculation before each decision, going against that would be going against "having fun".  :o

In games I have played in, but not run, I noticed that when minis were used the game became very two dimensional, encouraged I felt because the table was flat, the map was flat and so on.

Looking back on your last combat was or could elevation have been a factor?
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Offline juza

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Re: Miniatures or Theatre of the Mind?
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2016, 02:56:43 AM »
I started to use a big squared sheet on which I draw the setting and then use miniatures on it. My players find it very usefull to get more involved in combats.

Offline Voriig Kye

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Re: Miniatures or Theatre of the Mind?
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2016, 05:46:42 AM »
Looking back on your last combat was or could elevation have been a factor?

Whenever some character is flying we put the minis under some d6 or similar, to hold them higher.
But that is just to identify that the ones "on the ground" can't reach them, not to identify distance in a third dimension.

The final battle of our last campaign included a balcony, and I think we added some tall prop to identify it and placed the minis over it whenever they went there.

Some time ago I started toying with the idea of adding a hex display to ERA, but when I realized that it would be incomplete without something to identify obstacles (walls, trees), I dropped the matter. I am just not ready to go there yet.

Offline arakish

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Re: Miniatures or Theatre of the Mind?
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2016, 07:34:56 AM »
I voted both.

Currently, we are using Theatre since none of us have miniatures.

In the past, I have used miniatures and theatre.

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Offline Pazuzu

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Re: Miniatures or Theatre of the Mind?
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2016, 07:54:36 AM »
With the modifiers for position, range, etc., miniatures are a must.

Offline vector

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Re: Miniatures or Theatre of the Mind?
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2016, 11:32:39 AM »
I voted "we use both". Like any good tool, its important to know when to use them.


I would certainly rely on imagination only for quick, simple encounters between few combatants.


But, my love of detail and fetish for maps demands "miniatures" and battle maps for more elaborate encounters. I put miniatures in quotations because for a while now I've been using the 3DVTT web app for encounters that allows the use of imported artwork for maps and miniatures and tokens.


I've had a few, uh, shall we say, argumentative players over the years and maps and miniatures prevents about 80% of game arguments before they occur.

Offline Hurin

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Re: Miniatures or Theatre of the Mind?
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2016, 11:44:31 AM »
With the modifiers for position, range, etc., miniatures are a must.

That's our philosophy too. My group likes to know the exact details of the battle, because my players (and me, when I play) like a lot of combat. We tried going back to theatre of the mind for 5th edition DnD, but it just didn't work for us; we wanted to know exact ranges, facings, positions and things like that. So the hex battlemat is back and here to stay, for us at least.
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Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: Miniatures or Theatre of the Mind?
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2016, 11:55:23 AM »
I do use sketch maps from time to time, mainly to deal with questions of elevation. Like Peter I found that games I was in with minis tended to become very two dimensional when it came to combat, and in most scenarios I run elevation can become a factor. Unless you've got a Warhammer terrain setup hanging around, elevation (in my experience) is often discounted.
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Offline Witchking20k

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Re: Miniatures or Theatre of the Mind?
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2016, 05:05:00 PM »
I played a lot of Battletech in my youth- so, we always used the elevation and terrain concepts from that in our maps.  Simple and "transpararent" for the palyers
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Offline jdale

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Re: Miniatures or Theatre of the Mind?
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2016, 06:55:53 PM »
In games I have played in, but not run, I noticed that when minis were used the game became very two dimensional, encouraged I felt because the table was flat, the map was flat and so on.

Looking back on your last combat was or could elevation have been a factor?

Dwarven Forge helps with that. I'd like a better solution for outdoors terrain though.
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: Miniatures or Theatre of the Mind?
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2016, 10:54:01 AM »
With the modifiers for position, range, etc., miniatures are a must.




That's our philosophy too. My group likes to know the exact details of the battle, because my players (and me, when I play) like a lot of combat. We tried going back to theatre of the mind for 5th edition DnD, but it just didn't work for us; we wanted to know exact ranges, facings, positions and things like that. So the hex battlemat is back and here to stay, for us at least.

Hurin, agree with you 100% for 5th. ed.   The battle map is integral. 

For RM, why not simply say "he's 5 feet away, you'll get +15 to your attack" or "the wyvern is 10 meters up, he's out of range for a bonus"?  The players will look at the miniatures and say "Look, he's 1 grid space away that's 5 feet.  +15 to my attack."

For Star Wars space battles or D&D, the grid-mat was almost a must.  The dry-erase markers, the miniatures, etc. are fantastic for the D&D and Pathfinder games we played and I loved it.  One of our GM's painted all of his miniatures and he was simply talented and patient far beyond my abilities.  We did the D&D Beta, then switched to Pathfinder until 5th ed. was released and we used the grid-map all throughout.
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Offline Pazuzu

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Re: Miniatures or Theatre of the Mind?
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2016, 11:13:56 AM »

Why not simply say "he's 5 feet away, you'll get +15 to your attack" or "the wyvern is 10 meters up, he's out of range for a bonus"?  The players will look at the miniatures and say "Look, he's 1 grid space away that's 5 feet.  +15 to my attack."
 

We play the RMFRP version. We also try to stick to RAW as much as possible, for consistency's sake. Movement distance has to be covered to determine penalties for movement. Flank has a different bonus than rear. Radius and range of spell effects need to be accounted for. Etc., etc.

All of these things really need to have a physical representation that can be seen and measured. You don't have to strictly use a miniature. A coin, a die, a pog, or anything else can be used to represent the PCs/NPCs. You don't even need a map or battlemat, a tape measure can do the trick just as well. But no matter what the medium, our group finds that some sort of "miniature" and "map" combination is necessary.

Tactics are a large and integral part of our RoleMaster games. And miniatures and hex maps are a key part of representing the tactical situation.

Not only am I not nearly good enough to keep everything straight in my head, but the players need to see the situation so that they can plan their actions.

But there are some game systems where representing the tactical situation in a physical manner isn't all that important. We generally don't use minis and maps for games in which the tactical combat doesn't have that much of a role such as World/Chronicles of Darkness, or in games where position and range doesn't make all that much of a difference such as Palladium or one of the super hero games.

So yes, there are some games where minis and maps aren't needed, or all that useful. But our table finds that RoleMaster is not one of them.

Besides, minis are just cool. And painting them is an enjoyable hobby all its own.

Offline Spectre771

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Re: Miniatures or Theatre of the Mind?
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2016, 11:22:49 AM »


Besides, minis are just cool. And painting them is an enjoyable hobby all its own.

Absolutely!  The GM that paints his minis for us, obtained his 1000th mini last summer and we had a little celebratory gaming session. LOL.  He has the patience of a god and amazing skills with a brush.  I've designed my PC's around mini's that he's painted because they looked so darned good.

I've wanted the WH40K minis for some time just to paint them.  No one around me plays the game, but I love the novels/CPU games and the minis would be fun to have.
If discretion is the better valor and
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