Topic: How much dice fudging do you do for the sake of the story?

[vector]

100% 'let the dice decide' DM here.

There was an article a little while back on the DnD website that actually told DMs to fudge the dice whenever they wanted. I absolutely hated that. I like to give my players an appropriate challenge and then let them either succeed by good play and good luck or die by bad play and bad luck. If the dice are loaded, sooner or later smart players start to realize it, and then the game just kind of degenerates into a 'DM may I' scenario, in which some players just try to get into the DM's good books because they know that the dice have become more or less meaningless. That's just our group though.

As Brian VanHoose would say, "The dice are the only thing that protects us from the tyranny of the GM!"

That being said, I fudge the dice rarely and with fate points I usually don't need too. For me maintaining the illusion of a believable, and dangerous, living world is always more important than whatever plot I'm running. My "story" has to be flexible and respond to the players good and bad luck.

[Peter R]

I seem to have a memory of if you force the GM to use a fate point to save the big bad boss baddie then you get that fate point. If you use a fate point the the person who caused you to use it gains the point so there is a finite number of points in the game and they pretty much ebb and flow between GM and PC's.

I cannot remember where I got that from though. It/they are not something I use.

It's from the official Fate Point rules in RMSS Channeling Companion, p. 44.

I probably read it on here as I don't own the Channeling Companion and have not played the RMSS flavour.

[Spectre771]

So, let's say my character starts the game with 1 fate point. This I assume allows me to use it to negate a mortal critical whenever I want. A few questions though for those of you who use them:
--Do I ever get more fate points? And if so, how?
--Has anyone ever tried allowing players to buy fate points with Development Points? I was just thinking this might be another way to balance it, as it puts a real penalty (in the form of Dev points) on taking mortal criticals while still allowing characters to avoid random deaths.
--Are there any specific rules for fate points in any Rolemaster material? If not, from where are people getting the idea of fate points?

Personally, we tend to like the possibility of random deaths, as it adds an apparent sense of realism to our games. But I'm open to trying new stuff.

I can only speak for my group and how we handled the Fate Points on this.

--  We do  not give extra Fate Points.  We likened it to "Your PC should be 'dead' now, but Fate let you live one more time."  So it's the equivalent of having two PC's, or, if they were lucky, 3 PCs.  Instead of rolling a new PC, starting all over again, Fate has given you a 2nd or 3rd chance.

-- If the player can keep getting Fate Points through DP's, XP, praying to gods, etc. then the PC is eventually immortal.  We like the game mechanics of RM being a pretty deadly gaming system with the random crit laying low a great player from time to time.  It keeps the players on their toes.  With the amount of time and energy invested in the creation of the PC, the players tend to play more cautiously with RM characters.  I think part of the reason for Fate Points was to spare the player and the GM the pain of rolling a new PC. LOL  shhhhhh....

-- I'm pretty sure I got the idea from one of the later RM2 Companions, but I'll have to do some research on that to give you an accurate answer.

As a note, we allowed players to use Fate Points for ANYTHING they wanted.  We made them *that* powerful and consequently, impossible to replenish, and to only have 1 or 2.  I've since changed itstarting points to 1d4 roll with 1, 2, 3 = 1 Fate Point and 4 = 2 Fate Points. 

If a player wanted to use a point to have the GM re-roll a killing crit roll, he could.  That doesn't mean the 2nd roll won't be just as deadly, but least there was a chance the PC would survive to play another day.  The Player could use it to reroll a fumble whose result would end up in his death.  i.e.: Failing to jump across a 6' crevasse filled with molten lava and plummeting to hot, painful death.  One player fumbled a Locate Secret Opening roll so miserably that the result was that he was unable to test that skill again in that area for 3 months (or something long like that).  He had rolled well below -176 on the result.  He opted to use his Fate Point to find evidence of a secret opening. 

As always, it's GM's discretion.  I don't think I would allow a player to use a Fate Point to find an artifact weapon laying on the ground, but I would allow the player to re-roll on a random treasure roll in the hopes of finding something better, but (in my mind) that's a wasted roll.

[Spectre771]

As Brian VanHoose would say, "The dice are the only thing that protects us from the tyranny of the GM!"

That is excellent! 

And so very true.  I think the GM should be subjected to the same gods of random die rolls that the players are.  It makes the game really fun and sometimes really funny.

[Hurin]

Thanks Ecthelion and Warl for the references. I've read through those parts and the full-on fate points are explained in a lot of detail in the Channeling companion.

Thanks also Spectre for an explanation of how your group uses them. If I used them, I would use them, like you, and far more sparingly than is suggested in the Channeling companion. The Channeling companion suggests giving characters 2-4 to start the game and then giving more out as frequently as one per session, which to me would be far too much. I like the idea of starting the game with 1 and then maybe getting one more somewhere far down the line when the character completes his/her own individual story arc or some plot point/goal personalized to him/her.

[intothatdarkness]

I always liked the old Top Secret mechanic, personally. That system had Fame and Fortune points. You gained a Fame point every time you went up a level, but the GM rolled a d10 for Fortune when you created the character (the player NEVER saw the roll). Fortune was never gained, only spent, and who you used the last one "your luck was up."

The James Bond RPG had a similar mechanic, but you gained points through maximum success skill rolls outside of combat. Different setting, obviously, so they needed a mechanic to allow players to pull off the sort of actions Bond did on a regular basis.

Bond did allow NPCs to have these points (but in a restricted manner, and only certain 'levels' got them), but TS did not.

[vector]

As Brian VanHoose would say, "The dice are the only thing that protects us from the tyranny of the GM!"

That is excellent! 

And so very true.  I think the GM should be subjected to the same gods of random die rolls that the players are.  It makes the game really fun and sometimes really funny.

And just as importantly the dice can protect the players from a coddling, cloying, "benevolent" sort of tyranny. A GM that is too soft, or heaven forbid a "Monty Haul" sort, can ruin the fun just as quickly as one looking for that next TPK (Total Party Kill).

It's sort of like playing a new video game and using cheat codes right from the start. No better way to make sure you lose interest fast.

[lillassea]

After reading all the replies,  risk being the only one...but I fudge constantly (for the good or detriment of the party)! In fact often I roll the dice just to make it look random, but I've already made the decision! All for the story! Lol

[Hurin]

After reading all the replies,  risk being the only one...but I fudge constantly (for the good or detriment of the party)! In fact often I roll the dice just to make it look random, but I've already made the decision! All for the story! Lol

That's fine if it works for you and your group. What I just objected to in the DnD article was that the writers were just telling everyone to fudge, and presenting it like everyone does it, and worse, this was in an article meant to introduce people to DMing. Some of us don't fudge, but rather roll all attacks and criticals in front of the players, so it felt to me like my playstyle was being rejected.

[Peter R]

When I have played with a GM who did obviously fudge rolls frequently to keep us alive we, as players, used to take advantage of it. If you declared loudly that you only had 1hp left then no one would hit you and you became suddenly almost invulnerable.

When that GM became a player in my RM game he was shocked that charging into a raiding party of orcs got his first character killed pretty damn quick, he just expected to survive.

I find that without risk there is little excitement in RPGs, particularly ones that lean towards hack and slash which my f2f game is.

[Spectre771]

When that GM became a player in my RM game he was shocked that charging into a raiding party of orcs got his first character killed pretty damn quick, he just expected to survive.

I find that without risk there is little excitement in RPGs, particularly ones that lean towards hack and slash which my f2f game is.

OMG! that's awesome!   

As you mention the risk/excitement, I think RM (for me, RM2) offers a great value.  With the amount of time required to create a level 1 PC in RM vs. other gaming systems, the excitement is keeping the PC alive so you don't have to roll a new one.  One D&D module we played, the DM told us to make 3 PCs because people were going to die.  Well, that set the tone for me as well as my level of interest in the game/session/campaign.  We were making disposable PCs and they were so easy to make, I really didn't care if he died.  Heck, I didn't even care what my dice rolls were at that point.  I was left wondering which of these disposable characters will I be using next week and should I invest time in keeping THIS one alive?

In fact often I roll the dice just to make it look random, but I've already made the decision! All for the story! Lol

I roll the dice for no reason at all at random times and frown or smile.  It makes the players think something random is happening and they all shift in their seats and try to figure out what they just did that just triggered something bad that's about to happen.  Keeps em on their toes.

[vector]

I roll the dice for no reason at all at random times and frown or smile.  It makes the players think something random is happening and they all shift in their seats and try to figure out what they just did that just triggered something bad that's about to happen.  Keeps em on their toes.

Ha! That is a great idea and a useful tool in the GM's arsenal. Keep the players on edge if they are supposed to be in a tense situation or dangerous environment.

It reminds me of one of my earliest tabletop experiences as a player. It was D&D and the our newbie DM was running a module (cant' remember which one) and the DM only text for an area had the instructions to "roll dice, shake head." to mislead the players.

So, of course he reads that out loud as part of the encounter description.

[vector]

After reading all the replies,  risk being the only one...but I fudge constantly (for the good or detriment of the party)! In fact often I roll the dice just to make it look random, but I've already made the decision! All for the story! Lol

Hey, if everyone, GM and players alike, are having fun then more power to ya!

Although, I do recall once telling a GM that, "If you want to tell a story write a @#$!ing novel, we're trying to play a game here."

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

Dice are to make noise behind the GM's screen. 
I never nor killed any PC, save if resurrection was part of the story, or if a player kept acting stupid, annoyed me immensely and ignored my warnings about the matter. As I used to say, "there's nothing interesting you can do to a dead person."

I find that without risk there is little excitement in RPGs, particularly ones that lean towards hack and slash which my f2f game is.

Even without dying, you have the risk of losing everything you own, people about whom you care (who are, obviously, NPCs), fortune, fame, to end being hated, hunted down, being an infirm, living in misery, being captured and tortured, etc. In fact, in most cases IMHO, if the powerful NPC you oppose clearly wants you alive in order to be able to ruin your life... or to torture you to no end, you'd better wish you die in a fight against his underlings.
Anyway, I won't ever let a lucky or unlucky roll get in the way of my games and ruin my and my players' enjoyment.

[Peter R]

Dice are to make noise behind the GM's screen. 
I never nor killed any PC, save if resurrection was part of the story, or if a player kept acting stupid, annoyed me immensely and ignored my warnings about the matter. As I used to say, "there's nothing interesting you can do to a dead person."

I find that without risk there is little excitement in RPGs, particularly ones that lean towards hack and slash which my f2f game is.

Even without dying, you have the risk of losing everything you own, people about whom you care (who are, obviously, NPCs), fortune, fame, to end being hated, hunted down, being an infirm, living in misery, being captured and tortured, etc. In fact, in most cases IMHO, if the powerful NPC you oppose clearly wants you alive in order to be able to ruin your life... or to torture you to no end, you'd better wish you die in a fight against his underlings.
Anyway, I won't ever let a lucky or unlucky roll get in the way of my games and ruin my and my players' enjoyment.

You are certainly not wrong but those same lucky or unlucky rolls can take a game in new and unexpected directions. In fantasy games death does not have to be terminal.

[Druss_the_Legend]

Dice are to make noise behind the GM's screen. 
I never nor killed any PC, save if resurrection was part of the story, or if a player kept acting stupid, annoyed me immensely and ignored my warnings about the matter. As I used to say, "there's nothing interesting you can do to a dead person."

I find that without risk there is little excitement in RPGs, particularly ones that lean towards hack and slash which my f2f game is.

Even without dying, you have the risk of losing everything you own, people about whom you care (who are, obviously, NPCs), fortune, fame, to end being hated, hunted down, being an infirm, living in misery, being captured and tortured, etc. In fact, in most cases IMHO, if the powerful NPC you oppose clearly wants you alive in order to be able to ruin your life... or to torture you to no end, you'd better wish you die in a fight against his underlings.
Anyway, I won't ever let a lucky or unlucky roll get in the way of my games and ruin my and my players' enjoyment.

You are certainly not wrong but those same lucky or unlucky rolls can take a game in new and unexpected directions. In fantasy games death does not have to be terminal.

That is so true. 2 characters died in my old campaign (they were captured by the city guard and hung for murder), i know it wasnt due to a roll, more to bad luck and circumstance, wrong place/wrong time BUT as a result of this they were rescued by a mysterious magician with glowing eyes who had plans for them... this restarted the campaign over 28yrs later! ... the players assumed their characters were dead and buried but were surprised to learn they were alive... a dozen sessions later and two years of real time (we play every summer for 6 wks) these two pcs have been reunited and joined by two more pcs. Their luck hasnt changed much, its still bad but we are immersed in the same world we enjoyed playing in all those years ago. Good times

[Pazuzu]

We use the Fate Point system. I give each PC four fate points at first level, one fate point per level gained, plus an occasional fate point award for doing heroic or super cool acts.

I have found that the players at my table eat through enough of them that there is still plenty of chance for a fatality, or even a TPK.

When it comes to my intricately created big bad villains and nemesises (nemesese?), I don't fudge the dice or rules to keep them around. If they get gacked, they get gacked.

But some of them do have fate points too...     

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

In fantasy games death does not have to be terminal.

I wouldn't be so affirmative about the matter...

[Mordrig]

None, if the result is critical to the storey there is no die roll, if the result is critical to the character survival, there is a die roll, as GM i might hint they have better options, but once the dice are rolled you live (or die) with the results.

[Peter R]

In fantasy games death does not have to be terminal.

I wouldn't be so affirmative about the matter...

I didn't think I was being particularly affirmative. I thought that statement simply pointed out a possibility.