Author Topic: Defense vs Arcane magic?  (Read 7978 times)

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Offline thrud

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Defense vs Arcane magic?
« on: April 16, 2008, 09:58:35 AM »
How do you solve this? Cancel xx, Dispell xx, ...?
How do you dispell arcane spells?
Since RMC doesn't have the arcane realm yet let's use RM2 instead.

Offline Marc R

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Re: Defense vs Arcane magic?
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2008, 10:45:04 AM »
For my games you need a cancel/dispell that directly affects arcane, or can affect any realm.

If I recall, you get "Dispell Channeling" "Dispell Mentalism" "Dispell Essence" then "Dispell Power". . . .the last one can work on any realm, so I'd allow it to work on Arcane.

That makes arcane more powerful.

I have seen the opposite view used also, that since they're off all three realms any cancel/dispell works on arcane (much like you get the average of your three RR bonuses)

I guess this depends on if your arcane is "High" magic that trancends the three realms(as it is in my games) suggesting the first, or "Primitive magic" (pre-realm) supporting the latter.
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Offline mocking bird

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Re: Defense vs Arcane magic?
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2008, 10:59:54 AM »
We also go with a third option - you need all three realm cancell/dispells to get rid of an arcane spell. 
With this reasoning arcane will also show up with any detect but will show up differently than a realm spell.

It depends on where you put arcane in magical evolution - later where the realms got put together (high magic) or before the realms were split (primordial magic).
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.    Buddha

Offline thrud

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Re: Defense vs Arcane magic?
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2008, 11:22:17 AM »
There is no Arcane realm i the core rules thus there are no dispell arcane in Spell law. I can't find dispell power either? Paladin has dispell power but that's the only list I can remember with that spell?

mocking bird> How do you make that work? All cancel/dispell spells are "C" for duration?

My view of Arcane is the primordial magic, before the splitting.

Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Defense vs Arcane magic?
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2008, 11:35:25 AM »
RMC has no "Arcane Realm", therefore, the "Arcane" spell is being cast via a single realm, regardless of its origins. Therefore, I would rule that an appropriate Cancel or Dispel for the realm of the caster would work just fine.




Offline Marc R

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Re: Defense vs Arcane magic?
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2008, 12:36:41 PM »
went through the PDFs looking for references.

There is a discussion of magic, including Arcane in SL 2.1 (Page 11)

More on topic to your question are the mechanics of Creature abilty resolution in CT (Pgs 20-21)

On page 21 it gets into what spells resist or cancel vs arcane. That's specific to innate proto-magical arcane abilities though, so it may not all apply to "Arcane" spells.

As to spells that affect all realms:

Cancel True
Lesser Dispell True
Greater Dispell True
Spell Shield True
Resistance True
Those are mostly fairly high level

also, any spell that gives a generic DB, RR or other bonus vs "Magic" would seem to apply.
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Offline Cernid Win

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Re: Defense vs Arcane magic?
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2008, 12:45:06 PM »
I would make it easier
the highest cancel spell from the list
for a essence user this would be cancel channeling (lvl 6) and he had to learn the other cancel spells before

Offline mocking bird

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Re: Defense vs Arcane magic?
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2008, 01:36:40 PM »
mocking bird> How do you make that work? All cancel/dispell spells are "C" for duration?

When the cancel/dispell 'works' it has taken apart a section of the spell so they can be cast in successive rounds and don't need to be done all at once. If the process is not completed, spell is left intact, then it will 'regrow' - kind of like a yucca.  This aspect hasn't really been fleshed out as we either have done it or not even started.
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.    Buddha

Offline thrud

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Re: Defense vs Arcane magic?
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2008, 02:00:05 PM »
Multiple spells work for dispelling wards and other stationary spells but not wen it comes to battle.

Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Defense vs Arcane magic?
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2008, 02:56:07 PM »
To expand upon what I was saying above...

When a caster from a specific realm learns a list, he learns to cast it from his realm. This is a given when a Channeling user learns a Mentalism list or a Essence use learns a Channeling list, etc. (based upon the option being used -- specifically Option 2.5 (full list availability) which also recommends Option 10.3 (ESF Mod of 20) be used).

When a character learns a list from another realm, and then casts spells from that list, he is casting the spell with his PP (which are of his original realm) and the spells are resisted against as being from the same realm. In other words, if a Cleric learns a Mentalist's base list, he casts the spell as a Channeling Spell and if a target has to resist, he resists it as if it were a channeling spell.

Thus when a character from RMC learns a spell list that might be considered Arcane, that spell list will be learned as and treated as if it were from a single realm (the realm of the caster). And that includes what can cancel or dispel it.

Now, if using the Archmage, from RMCI, or something similar. The Archmage would, in my opinion, be treated like a tri-realm hybrid since he can learn spells from all three realms and since RMC does NOT have a magical realm known as Arcane (the closest thing is the innate abilities of some creatures).

For his Base Lists, he would have to follow the same rules as for regular Hybrids, as stated on page 16 of RMC Spell Law. The Archmage would have to abide by the realm restrictions for all three realms when casting from his Base Lists. For his Open and Closed spell lists, he would have to abide the restrictions from the realm from which the list came.

In countering spells from a Hybrid, which we unfortunately did not cover in Spell Law, you have to counter the realm from which the spell comes from, in regards to the Open and Closed lists.

But this is more problematic when it comes to Base lists, since for the Hybrids and the Archmage, they are considered to be from all of the involved realms (2 for the hybrid, and 3 for the Archmage).

Now, if we make an analogy of a spell being like a house of cards - the shape of the house being what determines the spell, the number of cards being the level/complexity, and the different suits being the realm (yes, in this analogy, we only have 3 suits).

Then what happens when you do a cancel or dispel? You are essentially removing all of the cards of a given suit.

For a spell of a single realm, this removes all of the cards, and away goes the spell.

For a hybrid, it would remove half of the cards, and while there it a good chance that the spell will collapse, there is a chance that it will remain standing.

For an Archmage's spells (or arcane spells/abilities), you are removing about a third of the cards, and so the chance of the house falling is less than that of a hybrid spell, but it is still there.

Needless to say, we messed up in not covering this in Spell Law, in regards to the Hybrids, and in C&T because we didn't think it through well enough.

In C&T it says that only spells that affect all three realms can affect Arcane abilities.

I would have to say that it needs to be changed to the following:

Note: I am marking the following in green as a Potential/Provisional Ruling, until I can get more feedback from folks in this thread.




For Hybrid casters, it is already established that Open and Closed spells that they learn belong to the realm that they come from, when it is one of the two realms that the Hybrid belongs to.

Therefore, if a Hyrbid caster learns a list from the realm with which it is not associated (i.e. a Mystic learning a Channeling list), those lists are treated as Hybrid lists (i.e. of BOTH the Hybrid's realms).

This follows in the precedent of a caster from a single realm learning spell lists of other realms having those lists treated as being of the same realm as their Base Lists. If a spell user of a single realm learns an Arcane List, it would be treated in all ways, in regards to its realm and how it is resisted and/or canceled/dispelled, as if it were of that realm. If a hybrid spell user learned and Arcane List, then the list would be treated in all ways, in regards to its realm and how it is resisted and/or canceled/dispelled, as if it were another Hybrid list. In neither case, does this reflect what level that list may be learned to (that would be set by other options/rules).

Hybrid Spells -- If a spell list if of 2 realms, like the Hybrid Base Lists, then when a Cancel or Dispel against either of the Hyrbrid's realms is used, the defending spell must make a RR or be Canceled/Dispeled. However, it receives a +10 to any RR that it gets to make.

Arcane Abilities/Spells -- Being of all three realms, then when a Cancel or Dispel against any of the  realms, the defending spell must make a RR or be Canceled/Dispeled. However, it receives a +25 to any RR that it gets to make. If an Arcane Spell or Ability is his by a Cancel/Dispel that affects 2 realms, then it's RR receives a +10. If it is hit by a Cancel/Dispel that affects all 3 realms, then it receives no modifier to its RR (note: this last replicates the existing C&T rule, so we aren't really changing the rule, but expanding it to cover what was previously missed)




Offline thrud

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Re: Defense vs Arcane magic?
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2008, 03:12:40 PM »
I like it.  ;D

Simple and playable.

Offline Marc R

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Re: Defense vs Arcane magic?
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2008, 03:21:33 PM »
I totally agree on the caster angle, in terms of an arcane spell cast by a cleric is channeling (I think that's right in SL).

This also gets into "Resistance" like if an effect gives +30 resistance to channeling, how would that work vs a Sorcerer using Base lists or an Archmage using base lists. (If compared to how your stat and racial RR bonus logic works, it would be +15 vs the Sorcerer, and +10 vs the arcane)

Extending that same logic, since you resolve cancels as cancel spell level vs defending spell level, it might work as:

Single realm cancel vs hybrid, the canceling spell is considered 1/2 it's actual level on the RR table.

Single realm cancel vs arcane, the cancelling spell is considered 1/3 it's actual level on the RR table.

Might also want to leave the door open to consider ahead of time what to do with cancels or dispells on hybird or arcane base lists. Could require a table to do single/hybrid/arcane vs single/hybrid/arcane grid ala:

   Pure   Hybrid   Arcane
Pure   1        1/2    1/3
Hybrid    1/2   1        2/3
Arcane    1/3    2/3   1   

though, it gets messy with hybrid vs hybrid. . .if it's channeling/essence cancel vs channeling/essence spell it's easily at unity 1:1, but if it's channeling/essence cancel vs mentalism/essence spell it might be 1:2 or 1:4 depending on how you choose to look at it.
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Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Defense vs Arcane magic?
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2008, 04:04:24 PM »
Quote
Single realm cancel vs hybrid, the canceling spell is considered 1/2 it's actual level on the RR table.

Single realm cancel vs arcane, the cancelling spell is considered 1/3 it's actual level on the RR table.

Might also want to leave the door open to consider ahead of time what to do with cancels or dispells on hybird or arcane base lists. Could require a table to do single/hybrid/arcane vs single/hybrid/arcane grid ala:

   Pure   Hybrid   Arcane
Pure   1        1/2    1/3
Hybrid    1/2   1        2/3
Arcane    1/3    2/3   1   

though, it gets messy with hybrid vs hybrid. . .if it's channeling/essence cancel vs channeling/essence spell it's easily at unity 1:1, but if it's channeling/essence cancel vs mentalism/essence spell it might be 1:2 or 1:4 depending on how you choose to look at it.

That looks overly complex. There is no need for it.

Messing with the levels is too messy, and requires too much on-the-spot figuring to deal with. Plus they also totally disrupt the formulas behind the RR tables, and you can get some really wonky results. No need to make things unnecessarily complicated.

Simple mods to the roll work just as well, and makes it easier on all involved. And the proposed ruling I made up above already takes into account what to do if a cancel or dispel has 1, 2 or 3 realms in common.

all realms in common, no mod
1 realm not in common, defender  gets +10
2 realms not in common, defender gets +25

Short, simple, no tables, no on-the-fly figuring.


Quote
This also gets into "Resistance" like if an effect gives +30 resistance to channeling, how would that work vs a Sorcerer using Base lists or an Archmage using base lists. (If compared to how your stat and racial RR bonus logic works, it would be +15 vs the Sorcerer, and +10 vs the arcane)

No need to even deal with it....

Resisting multiple realms is done by averaging the bonuses involved. So, if you get a +30 vs Essence, and you are resisting a spell from a Mystic's Base List. You average the character's mods for Essence and Mentalism. The +30 is already applying to  Essence, so when you average them, it will automatically be averaged down like you are suggesting.




Offline Marc R

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Re: Defense vs Arcane magic?
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2008, 04:25:06 PM »
I like the simplified logic, but there's a problem:

If you have +30 vs Channeling resistance
"1 realm not in common" get hit with Hybrid CH/ES you get +15 (1/2)
"2 realms not in common" get hit with Arcane and it's +10 (1/3)

But if you have +30 channeling, and +30 Essence resistance
get hit with Hybrid CH/ES you get +30
"1 realm not in common" get hit with Arcane and it's +20 (2/3)

The two bold lines have the same status of realms not in common, but you can see the results are not the same. The proportions are a little more complicated, since it doesn't only matter how many realms you have "not in common", it matters how many realms you have in common also.

Modifiers are a little low, "Half" in RR terms is +25 (since equals resist at 50)
In terms of the logic of the RR table it's more like

             Pure   Hybrid   Arcane
Pure        -        +25      +33
Hybrid     +25      *        +17
Arcane    +33      +17      -   

Though again, hybrid vs hybrid could be either no modifier or +25:

             C/E      C/M   E/M
C/E        -        +25     +25
C/M       +25     -        +25
E/M       +25     +25      -   


Not saying that's not a workable, simple to use answer, just think the values are too low (Even at simplified logic it should be +25/+33) and it misses some of the detail you get if you expend to look at the degree of similarity, not just the degree of difference.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2008, 04:32:11 PM by LordMiller »
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Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Defense vs Arcane magic?
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2008, 04:54:54 PM »
You are making it too complicated, more than it needs to be by overthinking it. Keep it simple, there is less fuss, less muss, and less complication and argument overall between players and GMs.

And I chose the values I did carefully and specifically, they are not too low, they are what I felt would be appropriate. I wanted to reduce the chance of said spells being canceled or dispelled, but not by a "full realm's" value. I adjust to allow for the interdependencies to make it weaker overall, but not as weak as a single realm versus a single realm.

Going back to the house of card analogy, if you pull out half the cards from the house, it isn't going to be as strong as if you built it using only one suit. Some of the now missing suit was supplying support for the remaining suit. So, instead of +25, you only get +15 -- not as strong as you might think, but stronger than same realm versus same realm.





Offline Marc R

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Re: Defense vs Arcane magic?
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2008, 06:06:07 PM »
I get the house of cards analogy, but it implies a whole bunch of cards, and removing one, two or three, but really, there are only at most 3 cards in play. It works if you built a house of cards out of 1,2 or 3 suits, it would collapse if you removed any of the suits entirely. . .the analogy actually implies that 1 realm cancels would have unmodified effects on hybrid or arcane. . .sort of like what would happen if you removed 1/2 or 1/3 of the bricks from a building, it would collapse.

How about cover as an analogy. . .using a 1 realm cancel spell on an arcane means you can only possibly affect 1/3 of the target, so they have 66% cover. Using it on a hybrid can only target 1/2 so it's got 50% cover, etc. That is essentially the same logic resistance and realms works.

if you want simple, the above data can be compressed into 4 lines:

+0     All realms in common.
+17   Two of three realms in common.
+25   One of two realms in common.
+33   One of three realms in common.

Only adds one extra line to your example, and the actual numbers are derived from the RR table mechanics, rather than being ad hoc "about right".
« Last Edit: April 16, 2008, 06:15:52 PM by LordMiller »
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Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Defense vs Arcane magic?
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2008, 06:21:11 PM »
sigh... Your not getting it. Part of the point is that removing 1 of multiple realms is actually weakening the remaining realm(s) in the process (hence the bonus to the RR is LESS then the value that you are assuming is the equivalent to one realm). It is something that your numbers are not taking into account.


I could go with
+0     All realm(s) removed
+10   3 realm hybrid with 2 realms removed
+15   two realm hybrid with 1 realm removed
+25   3 realm hybrid with 1 realm removed

But nothing more than that.

Offline Marc R

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Re: Defense vs Arcane magic?
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2008, 06:44:33 PM »
I do get it, I just disagree, on the basis of the math of the RR table, and the precedent of resistance.

If you cast a spell that gives you protection from channeling +20, and someone casts a channeling/Essence spell on you, you get half protection, or +10. . .in a spell vs spell conflict, where realm is a mitagating factor, the strength of the effect is exactly proportional the the amount of realm equivalency between the two spells.

What you're saying, is that while resistance is proportional, there's some sort of mitigating effect related to cancellation or dispelling that reduces the effects, which doesn't happen with a magical resistance spell.

I'll admit it looks cleaner, but they're just numbers you arbitrarily prefer, not actually rooted in the mechanics or precedent of realm interactions.

If you prefer those numbers for some subjective reason, I can't stop you from making them official, but they're not objective or fair representations of proportional resistance to cancellation.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2008, 06:49:56 PM by LordMiller »
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Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Defense vs Arcane magic?
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2008, 07:24:06 PM »
one last analogy and I am done for now, and willing to let others have their say regarding it.

weight supported by 3 posts. You remove one post, and the weight is now support by the other two, but in addition to the extra weight each is supporting, there is also a balancing factor involved -- your number ignore the balancing factor and treat the mana involved in the spell as being equal and separate, not intertwined. The removal of the one also weakens the others to some degree - hence why I have lower numbers -- that balancing factor...

You are fine to interpret it any way you like, but if I make the proposed ruling into an actual ruling, it will be using the numbers I supplied.




Offline Marc R

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Re: Defense vs Arcane magic?
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2008, 07:56:46 PM »
You could just as easily call that an unbalancing factor. . .most three legged stools I can think of, if you remove one leg, they fall over 99% of the time. (The house of cards, three legged stool and similar metaphors imply no modification, that any cancel will have a normal effect on any spell it shares any realms with, since yanking all, a third, half, or two thirds of the support of just about any such structure will cause it to collapse.)

In the case of a resistance spell, the "intertwining" factor is 0%, and the modification is exactly proportional. I'm not ignoring the factor you refer to, I'm pointing out that the system itself already ignores it in the closest possible similar rule.

Either way it's not a quantifiable modification, it's just a subjective gut call. . .and that's an area in which I can't really disagree. If your gut says lower the numbers, then lower them.

BTW, you swapped the red and blue lines (I assume accidentaly).

+0     All realms in common.
+17   Two of three realms in common.
+25   One of two realms in common.
+33   One of three realms in common.

+0     All realm(s) removed
+10   3 realm hybrid with 2 realms removed
+15   two realm hybrid with 1 realm removed
+25   3 realm hybrid with 1 realm removed
« Last Edit: April 17, 2008, 09:46:00 AM by LordMiller »
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