Author Topic: When do i pull my sword??  (Read 7031 times)

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Offline MikeG

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When do i pull my sword??
« on: October 19, 2014, 11:32:02 AM »
ok i have a pretty popular game store here in Fresno CA  they host quarterly RPG meetups, have an annual mini con and cosponsored Fresno's first con.  the problem i have is convincing them i am serious.  I can demo game systems.  However the only way to get them on board is if ICE products are available for sale at the store.  How shall i proceed? :'( 

Offline Wolfhound

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Re: When do i pull my sword??
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2014, 03:12:05 PM »
Note, that I'm not a member of the ICE staff (only a freelance writer and play-tester for them), so my comments here are not official or coming from them directly. 

This has been an issue for quite some time, as the original ICE management was hurt by a poorly managed and underhanded distributor; which via some financial issues caused a change in management.  However the changed management, did not manage things very well at all and made a lot of very poor decisions with one of them being only carrying things via online orders directly from them, which pretty much meant that their sales fell off a cliff and they didn't do anything productive to try to fix those issues.  Which in-turn resulted in another change in management, with the new management being much better, but struggling to fix the problems created by the previous horrible management team. 

This issue of stores not being able to get a hold of products has been a major hurtle for them, but it is also a common problem for several other game companies that now distribute through their new supplier (RPGNow.com (and its family of other web sites) which started out only doing electronic (usually pdf) versions of games, but which expanded into doing "print on demand" for actual physical books).  This supplier has been talking for a while now about a couple of possible solutions to this problem as listed below:

One is to allow physical ("brick and mortar" stores) to get set up with them (RPGNow.com) with an electronic storefront from which people can order the books directly from the printer/supplier, but for which the actual gaming store gets a small cut of the profits (for sending the customers to RPGNow.com) and RPGNow.com would do the same Print on Demand printing to supply copies as they are ordered.  There are a couple of minor flaws with this potential option though as I suspect that the profit with this model is probably very small due to the fact that RPGNow.com does most of the work and the physical store owners only have to direct people in that direction).  The other issue with this method is that there are no actual physical copies of the books in the store for people to pick up and look through to see if it is something that they would like to buy (although if you were to do demo's that would help to alleviate that issue at least partially), and since a very large number of the small-press RPG's in the past have been a "spur of the moment" purchase because someone picked something up that they thought looked cool its chances of being a good and profitable model for the physical store is small.  This method I know has been tested to a small degree with a few physical retailers, but not sure how successful it has been.

The other option that RPGNow.com has been talking about for even longer (but last I've heard they still haven't started to try this yet, and I first heard about it about 3 years ago) is to still do the print on demand system as above but doing larger print runs for retailers who order modest quantities of a particular book (and if they combined several of these orders from different retailers and did a singe larger print run it would save costs) at a reduced price via this method, then RPGNow.com could ship them boxes for their order at a reduced price, so that the retailers could then list them for the same price as ordering them online via the print-on-demand method that is already being used for the physical books.  Which in my opinion is the way to go, but not sure why RPGNow.com has not yet implemented this method, but hopefully they will in the near future. 

But again, I'm only speaking from talks that I've had with RPGNow.com customer service and others, so not sure what the status of such a system are or where RPGNow.com is in the process of trying to get one of them set up.  But I do know that the new ICE management is trying to pursue one of these types of methods as they realize the value of having a presence on the shelf of local gaming stores.  And this may not be the "official" plan of ICE, as I have not talked about it with anyone from ICE in a while about it. 
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Offline markc

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Re: When do i pull my sword??
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2014, 06:07:15 PM »
For Official Inquiries you should contact John Seal whose info is John @ ironcrown (no spaces).
 But what Wholfhound has posted above is what I have heard in the past and I have not heard anything new, but I am a volunteer only.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: When do i pull my sword??
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2014, 04:29:45 AM »
I'll never buy into a game system that I can't look into first.  This, essentially, means I need a copy to read though and decide if I like it or someone who is familiar with it to show it to me or full on demo it.

So... two thoughts...

FIRST...
If it's an electronic copy (and we'll say for arguments sake I am ignorant to the idea of or have no respect for the work put into it - which is a large group) why would I then go buy the book?  I've already got an electronic copy.

SECOND...
The store needs to realize that getting people interested in the game system could help proactively make it worth their time to then order hard copies of the book to have on the shelf... and therefore only good can come from you demo'ing the game in their store so long as they are willing to support the product if people like/want it.  The problem also then becomes, do they think it's taking possible sales away from game systems they already sell and possibly make more profit on?

I like to think my perspective is pretty balanced.  I've done freelance RPG work, I've worked for WotC, I've worked with gaming stores, and I've been a fan/customer of RPG's most my life... so I see it from all the angles.  The most current "ICE" is stuck between a rock and a hard place.  It pretty much comes down to: You need to have money to market, you must market to sell product, you need to sell product to get money.
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Offline John @ ICE

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Re: When do i pull my sword??
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2014, 05:04:02 AM »
Hi Folks:

Believe me when I tell you we talk about this EVERY year.  We WANT to do it, but there are a number of hurdles. Here are the facts:

1) Firstly, ICE has limited staff. Its not that capital is a problem - we have access to that, its that it takes a lot of time  (and that means more employees and that's even MORE cash needed) to actually manage a retailer/distributor/print run process.

2) RISK - And the risk of losses are far greater. You may print 10,000 books, but unless you sell about 6,000, you don't break even.  All your profit is in the LAST 4,000 books, the hardest to sell. And given the state of bricks and mortar, this is a high risk. So the risk/return trade off appears to be a poor one.

3) Print on demand is VERY efficient. ZERO risk to us and to RPGNow.  The negative is that people cant feel and see the product in a shop. But the mitigant to that is people are increasingly becoming comfortable with buying online where they cant see and feel it in advance.

4) RPGNow have talked about having a B&M program. But I think they are full of it. Why would they do it?  they have no desire or interest to support a competing format of sales.  They will talk about it, but never do it.  We have talked about retailers purchasing at RPG Now where we make no profit such that RPGNow gets its print costs/margin covered, and the retailer can make something (and thereby go around the distributor system. The numbers just about work, though the retailer would not make the standard "50%" margin (they would make a little less), and we would make nothing.  We then said, "Well maybe putting books in shops is "marketing" that would "cost us nothing". You know, a way to build brand presence...But then it does cost something as I pointed out in #1 above, more time.  Not as much as #1, but more and then it does cost something to actually put books in shops.

And I think that's where it all breaks down for us.  When you read the above, you start to realize that its a weak proposition. We just sorta lose momentum on the idea :-\

Now, that being said, when unified RM comes out, we are considering print runs and a push...as a one off which we consider "marketing".  If it gets decent support in B&M, we could see support product print runs...maybe.  This makes sense because this is a big project and deserves big support.
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Offline MikeG

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Re: When do i pull my sword??
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2014, 02:37:37 PM »
Well thank you all for the imput.  It seems we are stuck in a holding pattern.  I will still do demos.  And prepare one off adventures for the meetups.  Hopefully I get good responses

Offline Jaeru

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Re: When do i pull my sword??
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2014, 06:43:32 AM »
Has ICE ever considered kickstarter for RMU or a new HARP/RM adventure/campaign line?

I bring it up, because I read that for example the Exalted 3rd edition met its target in 18 minutes and raised in total more than tenfold what they needed! Talk about an active fanbase! (http://theonyxpath.com/exalted-kickstarter-is-live/  and https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/200664283/deluxe-exalted-3rd-edition). Of course it wasn't all a success, for its still unclear when the game company will deliver, so the fans are getting angry...so what else is new.

The thing is it takes away a lot of problems for ICE: First of all the risk part. If you raise the money in a kickstarter and people get the book in return, then you've sold your necessary volume beforehand. Unless you budget the project really poorly, you'll make a guaranteed return.

Even more so you know beforehand what people are willing to pay for fancy artwork, full-time freelance designers, luxury binding and what not. No more discussions about pricing this or that PDF for $5 or $20. The Exalted kickstarter raised $680k (from 4,368 pledges)...that's on average roughly $150 per pledge and that was only for developing the new core rulebook (at that amount of money people also got additional goodies of course). For $680k ICE should be able to contract some good full time designers/writers, artists, etc. for a new RM module or a HARP adventure line (HARP for kiddies) and throw in some serious marketing money. Now $680k is perhaps too ambitious, but the Exalted 3rd edition goal was 60k...so my guess would be that that would be enough too (I'm going out on a limb here).   

In other words...I read a lot of discussions here on what ICE should do in terms of marketing, bringing out (what type of) new material, what to pay for it, how material should look (artwork etc.) etc. All with the purpose of keeping our favourite game alive and kicking. This way the fans can put their money where there mouth is and ICE knows beforehand what the business case is and can make the required investments accordingly.

In any case...hope this helps


Offline Wolfhound

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Re: When do i pull my sword??
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2014, 06:53:23 AM »
That is a good point.  That is the approach that most small-press game companies are now going, is using Kickstarter to both fund and market their products (as well as provide a good indicator as to the interest that exists for their products).  The vast majority of the new games I encountered, as well as many of the newer games that have had successful launches in recent years went that route. 

When I say they use it to market their product, what I'm referring to is the fact that it would reach a much wider audience and possibly former fans that don't know the status of ICE/RM anymore who are also active in the social media front (from what I hear anyways as I don't do the whole social media thing much, but from what I've heard from those who do), which gets the word out about their product to a much wider audience (as kind of a replacement for advertising).
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World of Aernth/Channel Cities setting: www.ChannelCities.com
City of Archendurn & Dun Cru author (for RM/HARP)
Cur. projects: RMU Creature Law 1 & 2, No Quarter Under the Crown (campaign module for RMU)

Offline John @ ICE

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Re: When do i pull my sword??
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2014, 08:06:22 AM »
Kickstarter...the Holy Grail :D

We have talked about this too, ALOT. 

Give me a day or two for Nicholas and I to compile our notes into a useful response.
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Offline Jaeru

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Re: When do i pull my sword??
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2014, 08:42:37 AM »
Quote
We have talked about this too, ALOT. Give me a day or two for Nicholas and I to compile our notes into a useful response.

I get the distinct feeling you won't be compiling too many arguments in favor  ;)

I can imagine the hesitation. When people go on and on about kickstarter and how its going to revolutionize the investment industry I'm more than sceptic myself, but there seems to be a place for it in the tabletop roleplaying industry. The reason is I believe that in an industry where getting a healthy ROI for new products is far from certain, kickstarter is a way to test the waters beforehand and (essentially) get your customers to pay you in advance. That way you can at least achieve something approaching a break even point in advance. (just set the target at the 6,000 * price you mention above)

Of course this only works if the fanbase is willing to pay in advance and get a new product and some additional goodies as a return on their investment and for the risk they're taking (there's always a risk the product never materialises).   

I would like to see to what extent RM fans are willing to do this just as the Exalted fans were willing to.

But there are likely lots of nasty details I'm overlooking, so I'm going to wait patiently now ;D

Offline Jaeru

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Re: When do i pull my sword??
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2014, 08:45:47 AM »
*accidentally posted twice and couldn't delete*

Online jdale

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Re: When do i pull my sword??
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2014, 09:46:42 AM »
I've seen more than a few Kickstarters that had pledge levels for dealers as well. Bundle of 10 or 20 books at a cheaper price. That would provide one opportunity to get books into interested stores without needing a distributor, while bumping up the pledge total (which in some sense is an excitement meter).
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Offline Wolfhound

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Re: When do i pull my sword??
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2014, 12:47:49 PM »
I've seen more than a few Kickstarters that had pledge levels for dealers as well. Bundle of 10 or 20 books at a cheaper price. That would provide one opportunity to get books into interested stores without needing a distributor, while bumping up the pledge total (which in some sense is an excitement meter).

If something like that was made available, I'd be willing to contact several gaming stores in my area who might be wiling to place such orders if they can get larger quantities at a reduced price (so they can still sell for a small profit), just to make sure they know about it.  One in particular I can almost guarantee will, since one of the owners of the store is in the play-test group (and a long-time RM fan) I run and all the other play testers are regular customers and we have our play-test sessions at the store with many other customers having shown an interest in the game.
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Cur. projects: RMU Creature Law 1 & 2, No Quarter Under the Crown (campaign module for RMU)

Offline Jaeru

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Re: When do i pull my sword??
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2014, 07:01:03 AM »
Another nice example is the new Numenera game by Monte Cook for handbook AND adventures...target $20k, raised $517k from 4,658 backers. I like their reward structure:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1433901524/numenera-a-new-roleplaying-game-from-monte-cook

From what I've read about the game it's been quite a succes so far. Don't know about the quality of the game mechanics and the adventures, but the reviews are good. The marketing has been quite successful and the graphics look mighty spiffy  8)


Offline MikeG

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Re: When do i pull my sword??
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2014, 11:52:09 AM »
My first official demo of rm is saturday night wish me luck folks.  Are there any fliers handouts etc. i can get for this mega game night 24 hour extravaganza?

Offline VladD

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Re: When do i pull my sword??
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2014, 02:15:49 AM »
Isn't colin@ironcrown responsible for that?
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Offline Colin-ICE

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Re: When do i pull my sword??
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2014, 10:24:42 AM »
I am indeed (though that isn't my email. You can find my email on the CONTACT ICE section of the website).

MikeG you should now have the flyers we discussed. Please don't forget to let us know how it goes.

Thanks

Offline John @ ICE

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Re: When do i pull my sword??
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2014, 10:59:58 AM »
 ;D  Well, I suppose there is more against than for at this moment in time otherwise we have already don't it for unified RM!
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Offline Jaeru

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Re: When do i pull my sword??
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2014, 11:10:33 AM »
Well, well??? Now I'm REALLY curious...  :D

But seriously, I'm sincerely interested in what's against it. From the outside I can't think of any reason that can't be solved...but I don't have the inside view obviously  8) 

Offline Jaeru

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Re: When do i pull my sword??
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2014, 11:12:13 AM »
I know Colin is a fan of kickstarter...based on http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=13852.msg177640#msg177640   ;D