Author Topic: Killed player characters, does it happen often? how do you deal with it?  (Read 7945 times)

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Offline Hurin

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Re: Killed player characters, does it happen often? how do you deal with it?
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2017, 11:01:28 PM »
I often try to explain it this way:  Let's say you're watching a TV show or movie, forget what the actual plot it, but one of the main characters is killed off in a completely random and meaningless way out of sheer bad luck... like tripping and falling down the stairs.  Most people would think that is pretty damn stupid.

Now, it's unusual a character is going to die in a way that silly, however consider they are even more invested in their character than they would be characters in a movie.  Players are playing the character in a story, for them to effectively 'fall down the stairs' and die just isn't fun.  And why else do we play other than to have fun?

I understand and respect your perspective, but our group doesn't prioritize narrative to the same extent. In our games, narrative doesn't override the dice, or the general rules, or the physics of the world. We prefer more of the 'fantasy Vietnam' style game, where you can die at any time and from any opponent if the fates are against you. We prefer the game to be as realistic as possible in that respect-- that is, as realistic as a fantasy game can be. I think we'd find it quite boring if all the players knew they could only die in the boss battles. We prefer a Game of Thrones style narrative to a King Arthur style one. The fear of omnipresent death is what gives our games life.
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Offline Witchking20k

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Re: Killed player characters, does it happen often? how do you deal with it?
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2017, 08:28:01 AM »
I think if you manage Fate points like any other in-game resource they are fine.  I just don't think they are a get out of jail free card.  The problem has always been they are not written in to the system (aside from the Channeling Companion) and so they immediately become just that, a get out of jail free card......one which players plan on using just like any other asset.  And who can blame them.

The idea of only being able to die in climax scenes is a compromise, but does not mean only boss encounters....all skill and spell use falls under this category too.  What I do agree with is that there has to be consequence for encounters.   Which is why the compromise in my games has always been fate points managed like any other in game resource.
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Offline Druss_the_Legend

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Re: Killed player characters, does it happen often? how do you deal with it?
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2017, 01:57:11 PM »
I'm going to add something else the discussion.
There are story driven consequences as an alternative to death. Perhaps not as bad as death but they can be severe. Here is an example. In my campaign two players betrayed a powerful crime-lord by murdering his most experienced NPC, a fighter who was his second of command within his organisation. The motive was ambition. To cover their guilt the pcs set him up to look like a traitor. It was a clever plan. Devious even because one of the pcs wasnt in on the scheme - he actually thought the guy WAS a traitor thanks in large part to his friend telling him so and persuading him the killing was required.

Now the crime-lord who knew there was a traitor in his organisation of course wanted proof the dead npc being a traitor and therefore interview the pcs individually seeking the truth of the matter. This was when their story started to unravel and he deduced there was foul play afoot.

As GM I had to sort out the consequence for their actions. Crimelords dont get to be crimelords by being nice and giving second chances. They tend to make examples of people who betray them. This particular crimelord was an ex-gladiator, slave dealer, smuggler and general badass who you didnt want to cross. He is motivated mostly by money and ambition/furthering his reputation. Clearly this was a dent to both of these. My initial reaction was to have the crime-lord order them killed immediately. He has 20+ fighters/rogues working for him so that would have been a quick and easy response and totally true to his motivations. I decided on a different course of action.

It turns out the NPC they murdered owed him lots of gold. This dept is now passed to the pcs. One of the pcs, the ambitious one who master-minded the murder is demoted to the lowest rank within his organisation. He was previously 3rd in command and poised for a promotion to 2nd in command due to the vacant position helped create. The fine needs to be paid in a month otherwise both will be kicked out (or worse... maybe he will have them killed after all... its got good for his reputation to have people who owe him money just left alone after all). Like all crime-lords he of course used this event to keep his other men in line and publicly stated to his remaining men that the traitor had been found out and death with accordingly. In reality the traitor is still alive and he knows it but they now might let their guard down and slip up now thinking they are safe from discovery.

This news was taken hard by the players. They knew they screwed up and they will be paying for it for some time. They are also on the crime-lords radar as 'under supervision' so will need to keep in line or risk his wraith.
One last thing happened that impacts on the guilty pcs. One of them is a skilled burglar will caches of loot hidden throughout the city. These were located and taken. It isnt known who looted them but he suspects the crime-lords hand in this. That gold they owe the crime-lord? just got a lot harder to repay now they are starting from ground zero. This was as you might imagine very upsetting for the burglar who had made plans for the money with his sights set on having a cool magic item made. A triple blow. Demotion, massive fine and loss of wealth.

Offline Druss_the_Legend

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Re: Killed player characters, does it happen often? how do you deal with it?
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2017, 02:05:12 PM »
A fate worse than death? No but annoying as hell. I'm betting they are regretting crossing paths with the crime-lord and plan to leave his employ as soon as they have paid their dept.

Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Killed player characters, does it happen often? how do you deal with it?
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2017, 04:19:41 PM »
Chance encounters should have little to no risk to the party at large.  To die in a side track is terrible. 

I respectfully disagree. If there is no risk, there isn't the same excitement; at least, that's how our group feels. To die in a side track is terrible... but c'est la vie. That threat really keeps you on your toes -- and not just in the big battles, but all the time. Every battle becomes meaningful, and every victory a cause for celebration.

If there isn't any risk, then the fight should not be played through if it happens at all. That's just bad time management. If you want kobold attacks in the woods for setting purposes, but don't want any chance a PC will be killed or crippled, just say something like "It takes you three days to pass through the forest. During that time, you are harassed by kobold snipers and ambushers, but they were no match for your prowess and you come through with nothing more than a few scratches and bruises." Then get on with stuff you'll actually allow to be important.
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Offline Druss_the_Legend

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Re: Killed player characters, does it happen often? how do you deal with it?
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2017, 04:27:43 PM »
Chance encounters should have little to no risk to the party at large.  To die in a side track is terrible. 

I respectfully disagree. If there is no risk, there isn't the same excitement; at least, that's how our group feels. To die in a side track is terrible... but c'est la vie. That threat really keeps you on your toes -- and not just in the big battles, but all the time. Every battle becomes meaningful, and every victory a cause for celebration.

If there isn't any risk, then the fight should not be played through if it happens at all. That's just bad time management. If you want kobold attacks in the woods for setting purposes, but don't want any chance a PC will be killed or crippled, just say something like "It takes you three days to pass through the forest. During that time, you are harassed by kobold snipers and ambushers, but they were no match for your prowess and you come through with nothing more than a few scratches and bruises." Then get on with stuff you'll actually allow to be important.

yes. agree with this 100%. well said.

Offline Witchking20k

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Re: Killed player characters, does it happen often? how do you deal with it?
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2017, 07:21:26 AM »
Agreed as well.
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Offline Dunadan

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Re: Killed player characters, does it happen often? how do you deal with it?
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2017, 08:35:28 PM »
I handle Fate Points slightly differently in my campaign.

Rules for using Fate Points as follows:
1. All starting PC characters start with one (1) Fate Point.
2. A Fate Point may be used to modify any single dice roll eg a skill check, an attack roll (for any PC, NPC or monster), a critical roll etc
3. Use of Fate Points is subject to the following rules:
     - the use of the Fate Point must be declared immediately after the dice roll to be modified; and
     - the user of the Fate Point states the result of any dice roll (increase or decrease); and
     - once used the Fate Point is lost.
4. Additional Fate Points may be allocated for exceptional play (as determined by the GM).
5. Some (major) NPC's may also have Fate Points.

Fate Points do not replenish each level or adventure. They are very rare, I might award a single Fate Point to a player once every ten or so sessions.

If a character dies... he dies. It is up to the players with Fate Points to decide if they want to expend them. I very occasionally may fudge a dice roll (but not often). This for me keeps the "every combat is possibly deadly" feel to the game.

“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” - J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Mordrig

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Re: Killed player characters, does it happen often? how do you deal with it?
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2017, 06:43:42 AM »
Chance encounters should have little to no risk to the party at large.  To die in a side track is terrible. 

I respectfully disagree. If there is no risk, there isn't the same excitement; at least, that's how our group feels. To die in a side track is terrible... but c'est la vie. That threat really keeps you on your toes -- and not just in the big battles, but all the time. Every battle becomes meaningful, and every victory a cause for celebration.

I didn't say "Cannot Die" I said Little to no, it still can happen, it mainly depends on the characters.  As an example, I had an encounter for my players with an individual who had a temper and often duelled.  He challenged a player, that player had the option to grovel, or apologise for the slight, run away, or fight.  They chose to straighten out the misunderstanding.  The NPC became a strong contact for the players and supported them in later episodes.  This was totally random, in fact, I hadn't even intended that they really interact with this NPC, he was thrown in as a quick aside that was easily discarded, but the players chose to make him more involved in the storey.  If they had fought the player probably would have died, but being rolemaster who really knows?

I have definitely killed more players in my campaign than the average, and more than almost anyone at a bet.  My players know that they can die at any time.  I do allow luck to modify the roll, but as I said it can only modify the roll by your luck stat bonus, and then the luck stat drops by the amount used.  Additionally you may only modify the last roll, so if you are in a fight and the guy rolls a hit, you decide then and there to burn the luck to modify that roll, if you get a C critical on you and don't change that roll and I roll the next one That becomes the one you can change.  As the player you hate to lose your level 5 sorcerer to that lesser orc scout with the bow, but it happens. 

In all of my campaigns the players are basically free to do what they will, a completely open world.  Pick a direction and travel, pick a building and try to get in.  Want to be a crime lord, do it, want to take over the realm, go ahead and try.  You face the consequences for your actions.

Another thing I add is fame and infamy.  Help that little old lady across the street, here is a fame point, drag her into the alley and stab her for her purse here is an infamy point.  The first one is easy to get, as you get more they become harder, the second fame point is not earned by helping that little old lady across the street.  Your fame / infamy levels determine how well known you are in the town / city / land / world.  If you have a lot of infamy, well there may be law enforcement / adventurers / soldiers looking for you.  If you have a high fame, you may be summoned by the council / king to help with a big problem.

The players all know there are consequences both immediate and future to their actions at all times.  Try to live life gaining only fame, it is pretty tough.

Offline Dragonking11

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Re: Killed player characters, does it happen often? how do you deal with it?
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2017, 07:11:35 AM »
I agree with people wanting to keep players on their toes. Rolemaster being as it is gives a wonderful feeling of victory after every battle.

I never liked other games that make PCs invincible when facing lower level opponents.

In my game Fate points are very scarce and need great deal of efforts from the pcs to obtain.

Offline Mordrig

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Re: Killed player characters, does it happen often? how do you deal with it?
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2017, 07:44:00 AM »
That was my biggest complaint with D&D, as a level 10 fighter you can walk into a colony of orcs and kill the whole tribe without taking a single hit.  Where is the challenge?  How is it possible for the orcs to have survived as a race?
In Rolemaster, go ahead and try, one dead fighter coming up.

Offline Hurin

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Re: Killed player characters, does it happen often? how do you deal with it?
« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2017, 11:44:35 AM »
Chance encounters should have little to no risk to the party at large.  To die in a side track is terrible. 

I respectfully disagree. If there is no risk, there isn't the same excitement; at least, that's how our group feels. To die in a side track is terrible... but c'est la vie. That threat really keeps you on your toes -- and not just in the big battles, but all the time. Every battle becomes meaningful, and every victory a cause for celebration.

I didn't say "Cannot Die" I said Little to no, it still can happen, it mainly depends on the characters. 

Ah, sorry then; I misunderstood you.

'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline B Hanson

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Re: Killed player characters, does it happen often? how do you deal with it?
« Reply #32 on: August 12, 2017, 10:11:42 AM »
Good blog post on this:

http://www.gnomestew.com/game-mastering/how-to-make-death-matter/
www.RolemasterBlog.com
Other stuff I've written: https://tinyurl.com/yxrjjmzg
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Offline Druss_the_Legend

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Re: Killed player characters, does it happen often? how do you deal with it?
« Reply #33 on: August 12, 2017, 03:37:57 PM »
great read. thanks B Hanson for posting it.

i like the shady dealings angle and the quest. id do a mix of these. in my campaign world necromancy is outlawed and resurrection magic is rare.

Offline Frabby

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Re: Killed player characters, does it happen often? how do you deal with it?
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2017, 04:10:13 PM »
It depends.

In our main campaign, death is rare. There is a gentlemen's agreement between all players and GMs involved that characters will often (but not always) be given an extra chance; and usually the GMs elect to maim instead to kill (permanent penalties; one character has -5 to all MM with his legs due to frostbite suffered to one foot; one character lost her eyesight completely; one was beaten to near-death and suffered permanent loss to some of his potential stats as if he were dead for a few rounds).
That's not to say nobody dies. This campaign has been ongoing for 17+ years now and has seen four or five deaths, one char banished for treason and threatened with death should he ever return, and one abducted by powerful enemies and MIA. We play an "Adventurers Guild" style where every player has a pool of several characters available to him, and occasionally gets to play two or even more simultaneously.

We have alternate settings that go by different rules, including one "Arabian Nights"-esque where we try to strictly follow the game rules, making it much more deadly while every player runs only one character. Most players (all save one) have lost at least one character here so far. Death is a very real possibility. We've found that it doesn't affect the playing style very much, though it does pose problems for long-time campaigns.

Our current alternate setting has the group playing as Orc grunts. It's not quite working out as I imagined as GM (more on that in another thread perhaps), but I got a chance to largely reset the board through a near-total party kill in the third playing session. We explicitly agreed for this setting that players shouldn't expect to survive beyond level 3 or so, and that their orc characters should be seen as throwaways. The same pattern begins to emerge as in the Arabian Nights setting though.