Author Topic: Are spell casters popular among your players ?  (Read 5600 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ecthelion

  • ICE Forum Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,497
  • OIC Points +0/-0
    • Character Gallery
Re: Are spell casters popular among your players ?
« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2017, 04:58:34 PM »
The spell development is very costly at level up. Do you guys use the rules as written for calculating the available DPs or give a bit more ?
In my RM2 times we used to use the rule that the realm stat bonus would be added when determining the chance for a new spell list. For semis this meant that we'd usually only invest one rank per level for a new spell list and then hoped for a lucky roll. And we use the system of using two stats columns and always took care that our characters had relatively high values in the stats relevant for DPs. So we usually had around 40 DPs from mid-levels onwards. That was enough.

For RMSS we use RAW and never had an issue with DPs. Our characters usually have above 90 DPs from mid-levels onwards.

Offline Doridian

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 161
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Are spell casters popular among your players ?
« Reply #41 on: August 21, 2017, 04:10:11 AM »
This is a 1st lvl Magician, built with as much as RAW as I've understood of RMSS (the character has been built with the gorgeous RMOffice, I've corrected the software itself to have it be the closest to the rules). I think it's quite powerful a character to start with. A real boost (that I've not found anywhere it's forbidden) is to spend one background point to have stats increase during adolescence. It works for every kind of character.

P.S.: I've removed the attachment. Maybe it's silly, but I'm not sure it's allowed to share a character sheet. If you tell me that I'm allowed to upload one, I'll restore it.

Offline Dragonking11

  • Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 88
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Are spell casters popular among your players ?
« Reply #42 on: August 21, 2017, 07:25:49 AM »
The spell development is very costly at level up. Do you guys use the rules as written for calculating the available DPs or give a bit more ?
For RMSS we use RAW and never had an issue with DPs. Our characters usually have above 90 DPs from mid-levels onwards.

To have above 90 DPs you would need to have very high starting stats in Ag, Co, Me, Re and SD. I suppose you put very high values in the 3 neglected stats at character creation ? (Me, Re, SD)

Offline jdale

  • RMU Dev Team
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,101
  • OIC Points +25/-25
Re: Are spell casters popular among your players ?
« Reply #43 on: August 21, 2017, 09:35:27 AM »
In our RMSS game, with standard rules for stats, the paladins have 85 and 88 DP, the mentalist has 89 DP, the nightblade 90, the fighter 86. The nightblade started with abysmal Empathy which is part of why that number is higher.

I think the DP numbers are fine in RMSS. In RM2/RMC, I think the number of skills in use is more variable which might make it harder to set the optimal number of DP per level.
System and Line Editor for Rolemaster

Offline electra

  • Apprentice
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Are spell casters popular among your players ?
« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2017, 02:25:28 AM »
I personally always play one. We usually start games at 5th level any lower and toons tend to die easily.  At higher levels spell casters can rule.

Offline Dragonking11

  • Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 88
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Are spell casters popular among your players ?
« Reply #45 on: August 22, 2017, 07:44:58 AM »
How do you guys handle the level up of your spell casters regarding their spell list ?

Do you allow them unrestricted spell selection of any list or do you enforce the use of external "learning tools" like books, library, university, mentor, others

Usually in my campaigns, I houserule that the first 5 ranks of any list are simple enough that players can learn them easily by themselves and past that, require some form of study from one form or another as mentionned above

What about you ?

Offline Peter R

  • Navigator
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,850
  • OIC Points +480/-480
    • Rolemaster Blog
Re: Are spell casters popular among your players ?
« Reply #46 on: August 22, 2017, 10:30:36 AM »
This is very setting specific I guess.

For years my players wanted to use the optional rule in RM2 that allowed them to add their stat bonus to spell list acquisition rolls but that optional rule clearly says that access to the lists should be limited so that is what I did. Finding a tome or a teacher that would teach a list was an important find. Without a teacher then the characters could only improve the lists they had or research unique lists of their own devising.

More recently I have gone to the no additions to the SLA roll but lists can be learned without access to a teacher. The intention was to make lists harder to learn, to have less lists per character and therefore greater variety, not all mages could cast fireball and icebolt and lightning bolt. It was much more likely they would know one of them.

Tomes and libraries and teachers are still valuable in my games as I am a huge advocate of spell research and essence users need them but not for day to day spell list learning.

I do play in a game where the GM is very generous with spell lists, we can add our stat bonuses to SLA rolls and we can learn more than one list per level. At the rate we are going by the time we are 10th level I will have every open, closed and base list for my profession and already be learning a couple to 20th unless the dice are extremely unkind.

In my PBP game I have a housed ruled version where only spell lists you have used can be improved without access to a teacher and or training. So even if you know a list, if you have not been casting spells from it during the adventure or have sought out professional training I do not allow you to improve it and that improvement is not automatic.
Rolemasterblog http://www.rolemasterblog.com
Twitter https://twitter.com/RolemasterBlog
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/rolemasterblog/

Spectre771 A couple of weeks ago, I disemboweled one of my PCs with a...

Offline Spectre771

  • Revered Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,385
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Are spell casters popular among your players ?
« Reply #47 on: August 22, 2017, 11:13:06 AM »
Wow.   Fantastic thread and really great replies!   I'll throw my 2p in as well.

A lot of the RM players I have now were AD&D players first and the cardinal sin they make is that spell casters in RM2 work just like AD&D.  When they first start playing RM, I encourage them to choose a non-spell caster to get used to the system first and to see how it works.  The die-hard D20 players always try to argue with me and they inevitably roll up a very poorly crafted RM spell user.  Any long time player in RM will know a poorly crafted spell user; high stat values in the wrong categories,  too much emphasis on non-magical skills, one or two spell lists even at level 3 or 4 PC level, spell lists from non-class spell lists, on and on. 

Then three's playing the spell caster "less than ideally" in game play.  They remember back to the days when D20 spell casters had 1D4 HP and they see their RM spell caster with 30+HP but they don't parry or hide, they don't realize that "2 rounds to prepare, 1 round to cast" is a long long time in RM combat, and Stunned crits are devastating in RM.  Spell casting in RM is a lot more involved than in other gaming systems I've played and spell casters tend to be weaker at lower levels unless really crafted well.

Compare that to the long time RM players who know how to make a really good spell caster.  They have 4 maybe 5 spell lists at level 3 or 4, they've maxed out their magical skills and spent some good points in a weapon and maybe some defensive skills.  They know to plan their spell casting with the flow of the game.  We've had some amazing spell casters, but they weren't the majority of the party.  We would have maybe 2 spell casters in the group at most at any time.  One time, we had a non-spell user who spent 20DP for a 5% chance to learn a spell list.  He eventually rolled 96+ and learned the spell list!

Our gaming world is a little different as well.  We start all of our players at level 5.  One of the main reasons was to give players a chance to make really well developed spell casters and to give them some longevity.  This also allowed them to cast level 1 spells in 1 round a little easier for them.  To help with the massive amount of spells lists, we limited the magic to only Elemental Companion (RM2).  Only Elementalism is allowed and I've since added Alchemy Companion to the mix as it fits perfectly with the "Age of Discovery" in which our gaming world takes place.

Something I've learned over the years "Protect the Healer/Spell caster!"  Some members of the party would invariably protect the spell caster while he prepares his spell.  I've found this isn't quite as imperative in the D20 system.  As the RM spell casters go up in level they can be very powerful and it's the party's best interests to keep them alive and to allow them to cast spells.  We learned over the years to be very careful when spell adders and PP multipliers as loot.  Spell users really became powerful then.
If discretion is the better valor and
cowardice the better part of judgment,
let's all be heroes and run away!

Offline Dragonking11

  • Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 88
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Are spell casters popular among your players ?
« Reply #48 on: August 22, 2017, 11:33:41 AM »
When you have the chance to play with a well coordinated group of players, that are helping each other such as protecting the spell casters, it becomes so much fun to throw big baddies at them as a GM. The players like the challenge more often than not. Of course the campaigns must ideally be planned accordingly so as not to become a dungeon crawl with endless dangerous combats (that can be fun too sometimes).

A group composed of complimentary professions are really fun to GM overall

Offline Ecthelion

  • ICE Forum Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,497
  • OIC Points +0/-0
    • Character Gallery
Re: Are spell casters popular among your players ?
« Reply #49 on: August 23, 2017, 04:16:32 AM »
To have above 90 DPs you would need to have very high starting stats in Ag, Co, Me, Re and SD. I suppose you put very high values in the 3 neglected stats at character creation ? (Me, Re, SD)
That's correct.

Offline Ecthelion

  • ICE Forum Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,497
  • OIC Points +0/-0
    • Character Gallery
Re: Are spell casters popular among your players ?
« Reply #50 on: August 23, 2017, 04:19:27 AM »
How do you guys handle the level up of your spell casters regarding their spell list ?

Do you allow them unrestricted spell selection of any list or do you enforce the use of external "learning tools" like books, library, university, mentor, others
We don't restrict spell casters in learning their spell lists. IMHO it is well balanced that spell casters are a bit weaker in the beginning but then better at later levels. Restricting their spell list learning might disturb this balance.

Offline Dragonking11

  • Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 88
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Are spell casters popular among your players ?
« Reply #51 on: August 23, 2017, 02:36:47 PM »
We don't restrict spell casters in learning their spell lists. IMHO it is well balanced that spell casters are a bit weaker in the beginning but then better at later levels. Restricting their spell list learning might disturb this balance.

So you let your players invest DPs in any list and learn the appropriate spells right away at level up ?

Do you also let them start new Spell Lists of any kind (or realms) as they see fit ?

Offline Ecthelion

  • ICE Forum Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,497
  • OIC Points +0/-0
    • Character Gallery
Re: Are spell casters popular among your players ?
« Reply #52 on: August 23, 2017, 03:28:58 PM »
We don't restrict spell casters in learning their spell lists. IMHO it is well balanced that spell casters are a bit weaker in the beginning but then better at later levels. Restricting their spell list learning might disturb this balance.

So you let your players invest DPs in any list and learn the appropriate spells right away at level up ?
Yes
Quote
Do you also let them start new Spell Lists of any kind (or realms) as they see fit ?
Yes. No restrictions beyond RAW core rules.

Offline Spectre771

  • Revered Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,385
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Are spell casters popular among your players ?
« Reply #53 on: August 24, 2017, 06:59:07 AM »
We don't restrict spell casters in learning their spell lists. IMHO it is well balanced that spell casters are a bit weaker in the beginning but then better at later levels. Restricting their spell list learning might disturb this balance.

So you let your players invest DPs in any list and learn the appropriate spells right away at level up ?

Do you also let them start new Spell Lists of any kind (or realms) as they see fit ?

Ditto.  We looked at it as the caster has a math book that covers basic math to algebra to calculus to whatever level rocket science math there is.  He may have the high level maths but the can't understand or use the math until he understands the lower level stuff.  We looked at the spells as the same way.  Here's a list of 10 spells.  They are ordered in a hierarchy and the ones at the end are pretty complex.  You can't even understand the writings and directions because it's just way above your head.  If the spell caster was able to find someone else who knew those spells and who could help train the person, we'd give a bonus to the spell gain roll.

As far as DP cost and access to open/close/restricted lists, it's RAW.  The spell casters can be extremely powerful so giving unlimited access to every spell list would throw the balance way off.
If discretion is the better valor and
cowardice the better part of judgment,
let's all be heroes and run away!

Offline Dragonking11

  • Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 88
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Are spell casters popular among your players ?
« Reply #54 on: October 14, 2017, 05:32:28 PM »
When putting spell casting npcs or monsters, do you use the RAW for them or do you make them cast the spells freely in a more "narrative" way ?

I find it hard to use the RAW as things can go wrong easily with a misroll or something, making the fight really boring

Offline Peter R

  • Navigator
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,850
  • OIC Points +480/-480
    • Rolemaster Blog
Re: Are spell casters popular among your players ?
« Reply #55 on: October 15, 2017, 09:42:10 AM »
When putting spell casting npcs or monsters, do you use the RAW for them or do you make them cast the spells freely in a more "narrative" way ?

I find it hard to use the RAW as things can go wrong easily with a misroll or something, making the fight really boring

It depends on how you define RAW.

I encourage my players to so spell research and I use that a lot with my spell casting NPCs. This means that I have a lot of spells available that are not in Spell Law for example. I tend to concentrate on making new lower level spells. For example Shockbolt is 2nd level but a version that had a range of just touch would logically be 1st level. It does mean that the magician has to get into melee which is a big decision to make. Another example could be a touch version of the Vacuum spell effecting a single target (a ShockWave spell).  These lower level versions or other unique low level spells allow casters to cast spells quickly and with little chance of failure when compared to trying to rush a spell that should require 3 rounds to cast.

I have always favoured lower level spells but then in my game spell bonus items are extremely rare so managing your powerpoints is important for both NPC and PC casters.
Rolemasterblog http://www.rolemasterblog.com
Twitter https://twitter.com/RolemasterBlog
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/rolemasterblog/

Spectre771 A couple of weeks ago, I disemboweled one of my PCs with a...

Offline Spectre771

  • Revered Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,385
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Are spell casters popular among your players ?
« Reply #56 on: October 16, 2017, 06:26:21 AM »
When putting spell casting npcs or monsters, do you use the RAW for them or do you make them cast the spells freely in a more "narrative" way ?

I find it hard to use the RAW as things can go wrong easily with a misroll or something, making the fight really boring

I try to stick to the rules that will be governing  the players.  If it would take a PC 3 rounds to cast this spell, it would take the same amount of time for the same level NPC to cast the same spell.  If there are special rules for the NPC in the description such as "...may cast shockbolt IV three times a day without preparation..."  Then I follow the description.  I'll narrate to the players "the NPC appears to be backing up and trying to position the overturned table between them, he appears to be mumbling something under his breath.   He doesn't attack this round."  That should be plenty of clue that there is a spell in the works.  I'll also track the PP spent by the NPC.  Fair is fair.
If discretion is the better valor and
cowardice the better part of judgment,
let's all be heroes and run away!

Offline Zat

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 105
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Are spell casters popular among your players ?
« Reply #57 on: October 20, 2017, 11:43:50 AM »
Current RM2 campaign:
Elementalist (RMCVII)
Elemental Archer (Warrior Mage Variant - custom class)
Dreadnaught (Paladin variant - Semi-Mentalism - custom class)
Kensai (Arms Master variant - Semi-Mentalism - custom class)
Demonologist (Sorcerer variant - custom class)
Reality Mage (Astral Traveler variant - custom class)
Lay Healer (Core class)

2 things I noticed when writing this list:
That's a lot of custom classes in this group.
ALL spell users (4 semi, 2 hybrid and 1 pure) but no Channeling!