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Systems & Settings => HARP => Topic started by: NicholasHMCaldwell on March 05, 2017, 02:10:45 PM

Title: HARP Folkways
Post by: NicholasHMCaldwell on March 05, 2017, 02:10:45 PM
Is now released and we are offering it a special discount price of 10USD for its first month. Link in the March 2017 Briefing.

If you catch any typos, let us know so that we can rectify them ahead of the print masters.

Best wishes,
Nicholas
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: GMLovlie on March 07, 2017, 02:22:09 AM
I have a question concerning the Training Packages, some of them seem to break with the established guidelines of the corebook of maximum 5 ranks in a single skill.

For instance Envenomers grants 8 ranks in poisoning, Firsherfolk grants 8 ranks in swimming, and a few granting 6 and 7 ranks. One grants 10 ranks, but its in linguistics and is divided between spoken and written, and up to three different languages, so it makes sense. 8 ranks in poisoning and swimming however does not, unless you pick it up late in the game to give yourself something new, but is basically pointless at character creation. Right? As you still have to pay for those ranks, even if you don't get them.

Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Kullervo on March 07, 2017, 12:05:35 PM
Wow! I must to buy it! It looks perfect, I like very much the "earthly" professions.

Also:
I'm thinking about biuying some HARP old books in Drivethrurpg.
They sale yet: "Dun Cru", "City of Archendurn", "Friends and Rivals".
Are those worth? Any compatibilty problems?
Friends and Rivals looks like the NPCs in "Martial Law", isn't?
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Zhaleskra on March 07, 2017, 02:46:23 PM
This is one of the best detailed gaming books that I've read in ever. I haven't even gotten to new cultures and professions because of the wealth of material for world building.
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: NicholasHMCaldwell on March 07, 2017, 04:11:44 PM
I have a question concerning the Training Packages, some of them seem to break with the established guidelines of the corebook of maximum 5 ranks in a single skill.

For instance Envenomers grants 8 ranks in poisoning, Firsherfolk grants 8 ranks in swimming, and a few granting 6 and 7 ranks. One grants 10 ranks, but its in linguistics and is divided between spoken and written, and up to three different languages, so it makes sense. 8 ranks in poisoning and swimming however does not, unless you pick it up late in the game to give yourself something new, but is basically pointless at character creation. Right? As you still have to pay for those ranks, even if you don't get them.



Good catch - I will tweak the rank allocations to be consistent with core rules.

Best wishes,
Nicholas
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: NicholasHMCaldwell on March 07, 2017, 04:15:53 PM
Wow! I must to buy it! It looks perfect, I like very much the "earthly" professions.

Also:
I'm thinking about biuying some HARP old books in Drivethrurpg.
They sale yet: "Dun Cru", "City of Archendurn", "Friends and Rivals".
Are those worth? Any compatibilty problems?
Friends and Rivals looks like the NPCs in "Martial Law", isn't?

Archendurn and Dun Cru could be used with some modest issues. They both need their HARP stats tweaked to be in line with current HARP rules.

Friends and Rivals - all the characters were built using the old HARP rules so would need tweaking to be consistent. The spreadsheets are part of the product so these could be amended. It is just fiddly work.

I will happily entertain volunteers to perform updates.

Best wishes,
Nicholas
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Glenn_Gould on March 08, 2017, 08:05:29 AM
Nice work, love the book. Most new characters I'll create will probably start with one of the new professions!

Notes, after a first quick glimpse:

The "New Skills" should get their own entry in the table of contents despite sharing a page with the "New Talents".

A lot of the new talents seem to be of the "3 +10 skills for 15DP" sort. There could be some culmination of relatively cheap boni on single skills through these, if a number of these talents are acquired by a single character. If I didn't overlook something, there are limits for the (much costlier) "Skill Specializations" but not for the multiple boni type of talents which could become a problem if more and more of these enter the rules. I didn't look it up, but especially in subterfuge there might be some over the top combinations possible for skills that appear in multiple talents.
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Zhaleskra on March 08, 2017, 08:14:14 AM
Typo on page 20, there's an extraneous "r" in what should be the word "women".
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: pyrotech on March 08, 2017, 11:44:54 AM
I just got Folkways and read through it yesterday.

A great book - different than I expected but a very solid piece of work.  It reminds me of some of the older Gurps books, and considering I have a shelf full of those books and use them frequently in my world building that should tell you something.  Even without the new races, the new professions, and the new training packages this book would still be a great resource for anyone building their own setting.

Kudos to Nicholas and Jonathan (as well as everyone else involved) for releasing this!
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: NicholasHMCaldwell on March 08, 2017, 01:29:38 PM
Nice work, love the book. Most new characters I'll create will probably start with one of the new professions!

Notes, after a first quick glimpse:

The "New Skills" should get their own entry in the table of contents despite sharing a page with the "New Talents".

A lot of the new talents seem to be of the "3 +10 skills for 15DP" sort. There could be some culmination of relatively cheap boni on single skills through these, if a number of these talents are acquired by a single character. If I didn't overlook something, there are limits for the (much costlier) "Skill Specializations" but not for the multiple boni type of talents which could become a problem if more and more of these enter the rules. I didn't look it up, but especially in subterfuge there might be some over the top combinations possible for skills that appear in multiple talents.

I will be keeping an eye on these 3 +10 bonus talents as we continue to extend HARP.

Best wishes,
Nicholas
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Kullervo on March 10, 2017, 04:55:05 AM
Archendurn and Dun Cru could be used with some modest issues. They both need their HARP stats tweaked to be in line with current HARP rules.

Friends and Rivals - all the characters were built using the old HARP rules so would need tweaking to be consistent. The spreadsheets are part of the product so these could be amended. It is just fiddly work.

I will happily entertain volunteers to perform updates.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

Thank you.

I've just bought Folkways now. A very good book, indeed! I like very much the new professions, skills and talents. It's funny for a spaniard like myself the "Conquistadors" Training package, he he... I don't if this is a typo, you write "Conquistadors" (english grammar) in the title and "Conquistadores" (spanish grammar) in the text. Mmmm, "Witch Hunter", wow!

I'll wait for a possible update of the old supplements.

Thank you for "Folkways", we'll enjoy very much of this!
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Bruce on March 11, 2017, 09:40:10 PM
There are three skills listed as new in this book that are in the core book. They are: Painting, Sculpting, and Writing. In HARP Folkways the stats for Painting changed from In/Ag to In/In.
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: NicholasHMCaldwell on March 12, 2017, 04:21:07 AM
There are three skills listed as new in this book that are in the core book. They are: Painting, Sculpting, and Writing. In HARP Folkways the stats for Painting changed from In/Ag to In/In.


I cannot find them in HARP Fantasy (ICE/GCP edition). They are in HARP SF and the stats are In/In for Painting in HARP SF.

Best wishes,
Nicholas
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Zhaleskra on March 12, 2017, 08:21:56 AM
Painting, Sculpting, and Writing are in the Artistic category in HARP SF. So from a certain perspective, they're new to the fantasy side. I'm noticing some timing issues between HARP SF and HARP Fantasy, particularly about separate skills vs. subskills.

I just found that the case study of the Enyryx Gryx lists its Self Reflection Ways, word for word, twice: on page 47 and page 56.
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Bruce on March 12, 2017, 11:43:01 AM
There are three skills listed as new in this book that are in the core book. They are: Painting, Sculpting, and Writing. In HARP Folkways the stats for Painting changed from In/Ag to In/In.


I cannot find them in HARP Fantasy (ICE/GCP edition). They are in HARP SF and the stats are In/In for Painting in HARP SF.

Best wishes,
Nicholas
My bad then. I must have put them into my auto character sheet because I thought they fit and had forgotten they weren't in the original sheet. I am not sure why I changed the stats to In/Ag? Unless I determined there was some manual dexterity involved........ Either way adding the other new skills will change the way my auto sheet works because I am running out of room for adding new skills.
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Bruce on March 12, 2017, 02:39:52 PM
I found an error and a typo (or rather missing words) in the racial talents of the new races.
Three races are listed as having Tough Hide (Minor), Bentaxa, Navrothor, and the Vengha. The Bentaxa and Vengha get a +20 to DB whereas the Navrothor's listed bonus to DB is a +10. It seems like there is a typo there somewhere. I am thinking the Bentaxa are supposed to have Tough Hide (Major) and the other two race tough hide bonuses are supposed to be +10's.

The Vengha description for tough hide reads: "Tough Hide (Minor)—Vengha gain a +20 DB because of their
stone-like", the sentence is obviously not finished.
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Karizma on March 12, 2017, 04:40:57 PM
I just skimmed through this, and it's even better than I could have hoped for.

My current game was designed using Dawn of Worlds, letting players make up their own peoples and societies; this is exactly what I needed. The added races and professions are great too. I'm thrilled that there's a table for each of the questions, they are great for when you're stuck. I only have the PDF for the time being, but I want it on my bookshelf!

This is wonderful stuff :D

(Plus, Thomas Covenant helped define me in my school days, and seeing it mentioned always brings me a smile!)
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Bruce on March 14, 2017, 10:42:47 PM
Bump on this as I was not sure if you had seen it
I found an error and a typo (or rather missing words) in the racial talents of the new races.
Three races are listed as having Tough Hide (Minor), Bentaxa, Navrothor, and the Vengha. The Bentaxa and Vengha get a +20 to DB whereas the Navrothor's listed bonus to DB is a +10. It seems like there is a typo there somewhere. I am thinking the Bentaxa are supposed to have Tough Hide (Major) and the other two race tough hide bonuses are supposed to be +10's.

The Vengha description for tough hide reads: "Tough Hide (Minor)—Vengha gain a +20 DB because of their
stone-like", the sentence is obviously not finished.
I also noted that the Seeker seems to only get a level bonus to one skill at 1st and every 5th level thereafter. Should they have more options for professional talents?

I was also wondering is there supposed to be a section for Racial Hybrids for all the new races in this book or not?
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Zhaleskra on March 15, 2017, 09:34:57 AM
The Seeker thing may be on purpose, consider the Rogue from Fantasy. Gets a skill bonus at 1st level and every 5th level thereafter and nothing else except several favored categories.

Blood Talents are easy enough to figure out for new races, although given height ranges in the descriptions, a table for heights and weights would be nice.
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Ryhope Wood on March 15, 2017, 01:32:22 PM
Is the description of the special ability 'Danger Sense' for the Queequayth correct?  It has very similar wording to the Combat Awareness talent in HARP Sci-fi except that the modifier is -20 in HARP Folkways and -30 in HARP Sci-fi.
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Ryhope Wood on March 15, 2017, 01:41:59 PM
What are the costs for some of the new special abilities?

Shrewdness appears to be similar to the People Person talent in HARP Sci-fi, but with half the bonus (+5).  Would this be half the cost of the People Person talent? That is, 10 points.

Exceptionally Dense Musculature has twice the OB and DB bonus of the Dense Musculature talent.  Is this twice the cost?  That is, a hefty 50 points.  Plus is the penalty on the swimming maneuver doubled to -50?

What are the DP costs associated with Amphibious Action, Gregariousness, and Hardiness?  I can't find an obvious equivalent in either the HARP or HARP Sci-fi core rules.

Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Ryhope Wood on March 15, 2017, 01:45:33 PM
Bentaxa have Elemental Affinity, which are very similar to the Affinity of X talents in HARP College of Magics.  However, the bonuses are slightly different.  + 20 DB/RR and +10 to casting in HARP Folkways and +10 DB/RR and +5 to casting in HARP College of Magics.  Is this intentional?  Is this a Greater form of the Affinity talent and would the DP cost be doubled (that is, 30 DP)?
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: NicholasHMCaldwell on March 15, 2017, 02:14:20 PM
The Seeker is deliberate. It has so many high-utility favored categories that providing it with additional abilities would have made the profession too good. All professions have to be within a certain range to be considered in balance.

The Racial Hybrid issue is interesting and something should be added on that. I will have to think about race height & weight as well.

Best wishes,
Nicholas
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Bruce on March 18, 2017, 12:41:34 AM
The Seeker is deliberate. It has so many high-utility favored categories that providing it with additional abilities would have made the profession too good. All professions have to be within a certain range to be considered in balance.

The Racial Hybrid issue is interesting and something should be added on that. I will have to think about race height & weight as well.

Best wishes,
Nicholas
I also assume you are looking into the Tough Hide differences between the three new races that it have along with the one I mentioned where the text is cut off. Otherwise I did not notice any other typos or missing info. That is other than the other errata that has been reported more recently, like the few missing talents from the new talents section.....
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: NicholasHMCaldwell on March 18, 2017, 11:42:22 AM
They should all be Tough Hide (Lesser) which gives +10 DB. The Bentaxa Affinity needs to renamed to Imbued with X and will then be equivalent to the same talent available to Giants (and the Giant's talent in the core book will be renamed as well).

There are some other minor tweaks which need to be performed upon the new races as well.

Best wishes,
Nicholas
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: NicholasHMCaldwell on March 18, 2017, 02:33:44 PM
Is the description of the special ability 'Danger Sense' for the Queequayth correct?  It has very similar wording to the Combat Awareness talent in HARP Sci-fi except that the modifier is -20 in HARP Folkways and -30 in HARP Sci-fi.

Danger Sense is intended as an improved version of Combat Awareness (available in HARP SF and HARP Martial Law), so value is correct.

Best wishes,
Nicholas
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Zhaleskra on March 19, 2017, 11:00:29 AM
Amarvish and the automatic languages from culture needs some clarification. The Amarvish do not write. At first glance, this seems to be only their own language, but other interpretation can take it to mean they do not write at all. Does this just cut off the writing portion of languages from selecting a culture, or do they put more ranks into speaking?
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: NicholasHMCaldwell on March 19, 2017, 02:23:03 PM
Will add sentence to recommend redistribution of written skill ranks to own racial spoken and other languages.

Best wishes,
Nicholas
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: trechriron on March 19, 2017, 08:00:02 PM
I'm here to just say WOW. This is a super impressive work! I love the academics and think this is a unique entry into the RPG market overall.
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Random on March 20, 2017, 10:30:48 PM
I picked this up last week and it's great.  One of the best things about it is that the 20 questions can used in any system.
My only small disappointment is that there was know Hedge Mage type class in chapter 6.
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Zhaleskra on March 21, 2017, 07:32:52 AM
I know it's done to save space on the Training Package Ways of the Forestals, but my reading of how the Linguistic skill works means that speaking and writing a language are two separate skills.

While I liked the detail of the 20 questions, and the case studies, what I particularly like is the 20 questions tables at the end of the book. I also like the "you don't really need to answer all of these". Just remember, no GM plan usually survives contact with the players. You can have an extremely detailed culture, but as soon as your players don't care it doesn't matter.
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Bruce on March 21, 2017, 10:36:33 PM
I know it's done to save space on the Training Package Ways of the Forestals, but my reading of how the Linguistic skill works means that speaking and writing a language are two separate skills.

While I liked the detail of the 20 questions, and the case studies, what I particularly like is the 20 questions tables at the end of the book. I also like the "you don't really need to answer all of these". Just remember, no GM plan usually survives contact with the players. You can have an extremely detailed culture, but as soon as your players don't care it doesn't matter.
An extremely detailed culture is a little different. Culture descriptions and such are background info that adds color, feel, and belief to your game. The players can ignore it all they want but it will affect them in one way or another. Of course that all depends on the GM and how she/he handles the players intro to the culture.
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Zhaleskra on March 24, 2017, 04:49:22 AM
I used to love giving extremely detailed descriptions, until I realized "how much are my players actually going to care?" Granted, this was mostly in the designs of rooms, and it leads back to "unless they look thoroughly, are they even going to notice?" So I just give players enough to get by on, if that's all they need great, if they get more involved, then I'll go into more detail.
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Bruce on March 24, 2017, 10:53:05 AM
I used to love giving extremely detailed descriptions, until I realized "how much are my players actually going to care?" Granted, this was mostly in the designs of rooms, and it leads back to "unless they look thoroughly, are they even going to notice?" So I just give players enough to get by on, if that's all they need great, if they get more involved, then I'll go into more detail.

That is good and works for most adventuring scenarios. But the culture and background can affect how the people and environment respond to the PCs actions. If the players inadvertently insult a culture because they ignore the world around them it is their own fault, and there are usually consequences. Consequences can make any adventure or scenario that much more intense.
For me this is a really awesome book that adds some things that are much greatly needed for background. The way I look at it each town, each city, each culture is different. If the players are ignoring all the details then they could be missing out on possibly the best part of the game.
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: dagorhir on March 25, 2017, 03:08:43 PM
I think this typo has not by brought forward, at least I haven't seen it here so forgive me if it's a repeat.

On page 28 in the Gender and Sexuality Ways section near the end of the Norms sub-section:

Quote
In the first two cases, a person born biologically male carries out roles in society that are conventionally assigned to wormen.

I think wormen was meant to be women.

Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: NicholasHMCaldwell on March 25, 2017, 03:17:17 PM
Already caught.

Best wishes,
Nicholas
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: NicholasHMCaldwell on March 25, 2017, 04:00:30 PM
Refreshed the pdf clearing the typos, correcting the errors, and adding in various talents. Please download the pdf at your convenience.

Best wishes,
Nicholas
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: dagorhir on March 25, 2017, 04:01:07 PM
Already caught.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

Just downloaded the latest version and saw it, thanks
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: NicholasHMCaldwell on March 26, 2017, 12:49:28 PM
Print masters have been uploaded into OBS.

Best wishes,
Nicholas
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Bruce on March 26, 2017, 07:20:29 PM
Print masters have been uploaded into OBS.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

Awesome! I have downloaded the updated PDF but have not been able to really go through it. So far I have noticed the things I mentioned had been changed.

Great Work!

Bruce
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Glenn_Gould on April 11, 2017, 05:50:58 AM
I think a 6 rank skill (singing) slipped through the edition process, in the "Ululateors of Hark" training package. All the other training packages have been edited to match the "max 5 ranks per skill" rule, but here, public speaking got an extra rank which wasn't taken away from singing.

I like the extracted racial talents in the master talent list!

PS: https://www.qtrac.eu/diffpdf.html seems to be a nice way, to get a quick overview of changes between PDFs (showing them side-by-side with differences highlighted)
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Zhaleskra on April 18, 2017, 08:45:58 PM
Speaking of Training Packages, I'm a little confused by one skill with the "Ways of the Forestals". It gives you ranks in a specific Foraging/Survival subskill.
Title: Point Values
Post by: jasonyarnell on July 29, 2017, 12:30:35 PM
Hello, is there a point value for Flight? Also what is the point value (reduction?) for Hollow Bones?
Title: Re: Point Values
Post by: Bruce on July 29, 2017, 01:08:32 PM
Hello, is there a point value for Flight? Also what is the point value (reduction?) for Hollow Bones?
I don't believe either of those are selectable as talents. But if they were I would think they would go hand in hand, meaning you can't have Flight without Hollow Bones, though one might have Hollow Bones without Flight. Though I am not sure why someone would want that.

Hollow Bones as a talent by itself sounds more like a flaw and HARP does not currently use flaws.
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Zhaleskra on August 01, 2017, 07:24:29 AM
Flight does have a value in HARP SF: 20 DP. In the Folkways Blood Talents Flight and Hollow Bones are paired for Faleeka.

As for HARP not using flaws, mostly true. Exceptions: several monster races as PCs, Krakur (SF), Silth (SF), and Faleeka (FW). At least for goblinoid races and Faleeka cross breeds, if you remove the talent the limitation is tied to the limitation is removed as well.
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: NicholasHMCaldwell on August 01, 2017, 01:24:39 PM
Speaking of Training Packages, I'm a little confused by one skill with the "Ways of the Forestals". It gives you ranks in a specific Foraging/Survival subskill.

Treat it as Foraging/Survival. It is a holdover.

Best wishes,
Nicholas
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: NicholasHMCaldwell on August 01, 2017, 01:25:19 PM
I think a 6 rank skill (singing) slipped through the edition process, in the "Ululateors of Hark" training package. All the other training packages have been edited to match the "max 5 ranks per skill" rule, but here, public speaking got an extra rank which wasn't taken away from singing.

I like the extracted racial talents in the master talent list!

PS: https://www.qtrac.eu/diffpdf.html seems to be a nice way, to get a quick overview of changes between PDFs (showing them side-by-side with differences highlighted)

Missed the spare Singing rank. Swap it for something else that works for you.

Best wishes,
Nicholas
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: NicholasHMCaldwell on August 01, 2017, 01:30:39 PM
Hello, is there a point value for Flight? Also what is the point value (reduction?) for Hollow Bones?

HARP SF has point values for Flight because it is more likely to be acquired by technological means. You can safely use those costs.

For races, we give three special abilities. Additional abilities will be paired with a suitable weakness. In HARP, unlike Rolemaster, I don't require races or professions to be exactly balanced in terms of DPs but they must fall within an acceptable range.

In due course, DP costs for many more talents will appear in HARP Bestiary.

Best wishes,
Nicholas
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: jasonyarnell on August 01, 2017, 09:13:26 PM
Hello, is there a point value for Flight? Also what is the point value (reduction?) for Hollow Bones?

HARP SF has point values for Flight because it is more likely to be acquired by technological means. You can safely use those costs.

For races, we give three special abilities. Additional abilities will be paired with a suitable weakness. In HARP, unlike Rolemaster, I don't require races or professions to be exactly balanced in terms of DPs but they must fall within an acceptable range.

In due course, DP costs for many more talents will appear in HARP Bestiary.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

Thanks for everyone's replies. I'm in the process of building my own races so having the costs separated and known are very helpful for me.
Title: Natural Weapons
Post by: jasonyarnell on August 07, 2017, 11:36:46 AM
Is there a point value for Natural Weapons?
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Zhaleskra on September 14, 2017, 08:03:32 AM
Noticed a few more of the Folkways TPs have the holdover of giving ranks in specific subskills.
Title: Re: Natural Weapons
Post by: Radimon on May 17, 2018, 05:24:02 AM
Is there a point value for Natural Weapons?

In Harp SF, it's listed as 10 points, and it lets you specify what type of damage it does on your own. You could even specify different damage types, based on how you envision it (claws could be either slashing or piercing, for example).

In fact, I think the way the Faleeka gets two different Natural Weapon talents, and therefore has to receive the Hollow Bones penalty is... questionable, at best. If I were to run a game, I'd count both the talons and beak as a single talent, as we've seen them do with the halfling's resistance to heat and cold (it's even the same point value!). I'd then allow players to simply ignore Hollow Bones entirely. 20 points for Flight, 15 for Lesser Peripheral Vision, and 20 for a combined pair of Natural Weapons (again, I stress, questionable) wouldn't even put them above half of the races in the core rules in terms of DP of racial talents (gryx: 60, elves: 55, dwarves: 55 PLUS Stone Sense!), let alone move them into first place (70, held by the navrothor from Folkways).
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Zhaleskra on May 17, 2018, 07:59:59 AM
After looking at both SF and Folkways, I think Halflings should have their temperature resistance split into two talents. It's the only race that has a single talent that's actually two. Faleeka get the Hollow Bones penalty because of Flight, not their natural weapons. They are more bird-like than the Gorsiva, who despite looking like birds fly more like a combined flying squirrel with pufferfish (couldn't think of any more appropriate animal), plus they only have three racial talents. As you can probably tell, I'm not that much a fan of "handwavium".
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Radimon on June 01, 2018, 06:40:37 PM
Zhaleskra, Nicholas has already said in this thread that if a race has more than 3 talents, they automatically give it a drawback to compensate. Faleeka flight/hollow bones is the prototypical example of this. They are given four talents: peripheral vision, flight, talons, and beaks. Neither talons nor beaks are 100% necessary for a race of birdmen with viable flight to feel complete. Even if you insist on including natural weapons like this, one or the other would do just fine. There's no real game balance reason to have two of them. However, ICE went ahead and added hollow bones - often a literally crippling vulnerability - for what is ALSO essentially no reason, aside from how the race has four talents. Combining the redundant natural weapons together in order to remove the rationale for a completely and utterly unnecessary vulnerability is not unreasonable.

Giving Faleeka hollow bones was the unreasonable action.

Let's break down my experience playing a faleeka.

Bandits jump out of the woods. Combat starts in earnest. I take to the skies and start casting an attack spell (an enhanced arcane bolt, I think it was). One of the bandits shoots a sling stone my way, and barely hits my guy. But it's crushing damage, and down I go, literally and figuratively.

Rest in Peace, Evinosso Limiven.

In a nutshell, that's my experience with the faleeka race: a couple of in-town setup scenes, and a couple of rounds of combat, and a couple of incidents of damage.

One: You're hit by a pebble. 15 CH damage, 2 rounds of stun, -20 penalty.

Two: You're hit by a planet. Instant kill.

No one should have something like that as their first experience with this game. It especially should not be inflicted upon them merely because the the guys at ICE wanted to add both beaks and talons to their first flying race.
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Zhaleskra on June 04, 2018, 09:34:04 AM
We've already established that I strongly disagree with you, so there's nowhere else to go on that road.

Your GM allowed taking off and casting a spell on the same round?
How many ranks did your characters have in Flying/Gliding?
You didn't put ranks into Endurance in a game I assume you knew had a deadly combat system?
Your GM did make a mistake by deciding that the stun instantly made you fall. Sure, there are penalties for flying, and I'd probably have required a Will RR to stay airborne in addition to the Stamina RR for Stun.
I assume the hit by a planet bit is embellishment.
Sometimes I have had to remind players about Fate Points, did you forget about them?
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Radimon on June 04, 2018, 03:09:34 PM
First of all, I took off in the first round and began casting in the second. It was at the end of the second round that I got hit by the sling.

6 ranks in both Flying and Endurance. We were level 1.

My stamina RR was low against the stun. Being stunned applies a 50 point penalty to all subsequent actions. That, plus the 10 point penalty from the sling (doubled to 20, since it's an entry on the crushing table that specifically mentions broken bones) meant I had a 70 point penalty when I made a Flying maneuver to stay airborne. With that big a penalty, rolling poorly and therefore getting well below 0 on a Flying maneuver was what one could expect.

Ergo, I fell.

By that point, I'd already placed my miniature over the river, which was below us in the gorge, in order to be out of range of the brigands advancing across the rickety rope bridge with swords, but no bows in sight. Getting hit by a brigand who also happened to have a sling was surprising, to say the least.

But I digress.

The point is, being over the gorge meant I fell over a hundred feet, which in and of itself is a large crushing critical. Hollow bones bumps that up to huge, and when the GM rolled the damage roll, he rolled in the 96-100 range.

Twice.

What's the result on the critical table for when OB is more than 280 points above the effective DB? Instant death.

Ergo, I smashed into the ground, dying instantly on impact. So yes, I got hit with a planet, thanks to the attack roll made by gravity (that's how the falling rules work).

For the record, your post is the first I'd heard of fate points. Even after playing several sessions after the one in question, nobody has ever used any, nor mentioned using them. I don't know if our GM even allows fate points.
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Zhaleskra on June 04, 2018, 10:56:31 PM
Seriously? No one's mentioned Fate Points until now? The PCs in my game that's on indefinite hiatus due to work knew from the beginning they had them available, though some good hits on them I did have to reminded them about them. It also helped that I had enemies that were working to take the PCs alive.

Your initial critical description mentioned nothing about bones.
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Zhaleskra on June 06, 2018, 10:56:24 AM
I figured out how you could end up with a Running Fly rate of 100. So, sling man still hit you even with the -30 for range?
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Radimon on June 06, 2018, 06:04:01 PM
Keep in mind, this fight was happening on a bridge over a gorge, with the river banks about 50 feet below us. I went up and to the side in order to get away from the danger (or so I thought). Going up 50 more feet and a bit to the side meant I wasn't far enough away for him to get more than a -20 penalty. Thing is, he still managed to hit me by about 45 points, even with that penalty (lesson 1: soft leather armor is for doodoo on defense, unless you also have agile defense and high agility).

A sling is normally small crushing damage, but hollow bones increases that to medium, and therefore no size penalty on the critical table. I was in midair over the gorge when I got hit, so I fell not only the distance down to the height of the bridge, but also the distance from there to the banks of the river.
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Zhaleskra on June 06, 2018, 10:41:24 PM
Another case you could have used Fate Points for. Granted, I do give new players a session buffer (3-5 sessions) where I won't permanently damage their characters. I also ran a gladiatorial combat sessions with pregens with a player to show how the combat system works.

There are possible other penalties the guard should have had, possibly from armor and encumbrance. Yes, high Ag and St help with any armors, and soft leather is meant to be bargain basement. I know piecemeal gets slammed, but one video by Shad mentioned medieval workers making enough money to buy decent armor (though usually not all at once), and suggested getting the most important pieces first (cuirass/vest or shirt) and helmet so you don't blow your year's (or more) salary on a full suit of armor. At the same time, I think limiting what armor a character can wear and still fly is a good idea.

Did your GM apply the stun penalty and crit penalty to your Stamina RR?
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Radimon on June 07, 2018, 11:38:12 AM
Again, I'd never heard of fate points until you mentioned them the other day. Belaboring the point that using them would have been helpful is meaningless, flogging a dead horse.

In answer to your question, the stun penalty no, the critical penalty yes. My GM said that the effects of the stun itself don't apply to trying to shake it off. (Thank goodness!)

That said, with 'only' a +29 stamina roll to start with (5 from faleeka, 4 from constitution, 20 from ranks in the stamina resistance skill), a -10 penalty from the critical (doubled to -20, courtesy of hollow bones), and a -10 penalty to resist the stun because hollow bones also extended the 1 round of stun into 2...

Well, let's just say resisting the stun would absolutely require getting over 95, and then not having bad luck on the second roll.

And by the way, you sound like you're a much nicer (or at least more competent) GM than mine. Still, the reason I was wearing soft leather is because I had weight other than my armor, like weapons, supplies, a frontpack (which is a backpack worn backwards... you know, because of the wings). And plus, I knew if we got any loot, I would have to carry some of it, and that potential weight loomed pretty heavily on my mind (and wings)!

*SIGH!* I didn't even live long enough to get any loot...
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Zhaleskra on June 07, 2018, 11:44:07 AM
Oh I made my share of poor decisions, adversarial approach, and other bad GMing habits as I grew as a gamer.
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Zhaleskra on June 10, 2018, 09:03:45 AM
Should characters with the Sailor profession get +10 on Linguistics checks peppered with profanity?
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Radimon on June 10, 2018, 12:18:52 PM
+10 at level 1, increasing to +20 at level 5 and +30 at level 10. After all, it's a professional ability. *Scribbles it into the description of the profession, and then shows it to you.*
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Zhaleskra on June 10, 2018, 10:51:14 PM
Swears Like A: Sailors gain +10 bonus on any Spoken Linguistics skill when using copious amounts of profanity at first level, and every 5 levels thereafter. Maximum +30.
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Zhaleskra on May 17, 2019, 09:00:22 AM
I know I should have mentioned this a while ago. Folkways Training Packages also have a habit of giving too few skill ranks. A couple of them, Envenomers comes to mind, give 1 rank in a specific skill instead of the normal minimum of 2.
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Radimon on May 17, 2019, 01:46:52 PM
Yeah, and others give 6 or more. My GM takes the ones in the official rulebooks and tweaks them a little. Just add a rank to the ones that have just a single rank, or dropping to 5 the ones that have more than that. That shouldn't cause too much of a stir.

By the way, our game has a MMO-like Adventurer's Guild, and they offer this one (with a couple of exceptions, all these skills are General or Physical, so almost all professions pay the same cost for it!):

Adventurer's Guild Continuing Training Package
Endurance, 3 ranks
Perception, 3 ranks
Resistance (Stamina), 2 ranks
Resistance (Will), 2 ranks
Resistance (Magic), 2 ranks
Weapons Skills (one of choice) OR Martial Arts (Strikes, Sweeps, or Style), 2 ranks
Appraisal OR Healing OR Herbalism OR one Lore (e.g.: monsters, ancient ruins, common spells, magic items, etc.), 2 ranks
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Zhaleskra on May 20, 2019, 08:46:57 AM
If you're talking about Nestorians, you're supposed to split Charm and Storytelling ranks among the 7. Following the TP guidelines that gives you either 2 and 5 or 3 and 4.
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Radimon on May 20, 2019, 02:31:14 PM
I'm away from my books at the moment, but I remember that in Folkways, specifically, the Hark Singers TP gives 6 ranks in singing. I seem to remember there were a couple more in another book (college of magic, maybe?), although I'll have to wait until later to find them.
Title: Re: HARP Folkways
Post by: Zhaleskra on May 21, 2019, 11:18:36 AM
Yeah, a lot of Folkways TPs seem to have been built on holdover information or ignoring TP guidelines. For the Ululators, I'd lower the singing from 6 to 5 and raise Public Speaking to 4.