Topic: Moving Strike - rule clarification request

[Jinor]

Greetings  I have been viewing these boards for years. Thank you for all of the good ideas, concepts and clarifications received through the discussions here. Now I would like to request a clarification for the rules concerning moving strike and it's use. Have I understood this correctly?

Our quite sterotypical hero, Conan, declares a moving strike maneuver against Guz the orc who is 100' away. The conditions are rough so the GM requires a medium running maneuver to cover the distance without injury. Conan makes the roll, 100%, reaching Guz at the of the round. He has used 100% of his movement to cover that distance, but gets an attack against Guz modified by -25 from the medium running maneuver and +10 from his speed of 100'/round. If he has moving strike developed, he can cancel that penalty, but not receive any bonuses except from his speed. No other modifications are applied e.g. percentage used to move etc. If he uses less than 100% for his combat maneuver, he will get a penalty of -1/1%, right?

Have I missed something? These are RAW, are they not?

[MariusH]

This must be from some companion or something I have not read. The way I see the rules, if you have used 100% activity to move during your round, you can NOT attack that same round. In fact, since the smallest percentage you can use to attack in melee is 60%, you can not have used more than 40% of your activity if you want to attack the same round.

So, for your situation, I'd say Conan has moved adjecent to the orc, and has no activity left, so there he stands. He better hope Guz has used at least 40% of his activity by this point, or Guz could cancel whatever action(s) he had declared for the rest of the round, and attack Conan (although at a penalty).

I guess there may be a few exceptions with react and melee (requires at least 80%, but lets you move up to 50' and attack  in the same phase) or press and melee (requires at least 80%, but lets you "follow" the foe you wanted to attack (who you should be adjecent to when declaring the attack, or declare a move adjecent to before declaring the attack), and still attack with only half the penalty), but it seems this is not what you're describing here.

I assume that I'm missing something essential here. Where are the rules for "Moving Strike" written? I'm using RMSS; perhaps you're using RMFRP and there are "new" rules there? Or are these rules described in one of the companions? Please explain what I got wrong! 

[markc]

 If you can provide a book and page # that would really help out a lot.
Thanks
MDC

[Kristen Mork]

SoHK has rules for moving strike, but I don't have my copy on me.  I'll try to remember to look up the rules when I get home.

[Jinor]

School of Hard Knocks #5808, Section 5.4 - Combat Skills, page 15.

Hmmm... is SoHK a RMFRP specific companion product? I have never owned any of the RMSS books, only FRP, so I apologise if I assumed too much. Assumption is the first step to failure. 

Correction. I do own "...and a 10' pole", but as I replaced to original covers, I forgot that it was RMSS.

[Kristen Mork]

SoHK was written for RMSS, but RMFRP was released before SoHK went to press, so I think it is officially an RMFRP product.

[Jinor]

Learning every day 

MariusH, it is for that "max 40% for movement per round, if you wish to attack" why I am seeking this clarification, because two of my fellow players couldn't believe that you could move more than 40%, up to 100%, and still have an attack the same round. The fact I thought it is RAW (and still do), not my own interpretation made me doubt myself.  The truth is out there... in here I believe.

[markc]

 Thanks for the info Jinor.


 After looking at the MAC, AL95 and the SoHK here is what I have come to understand.
   The rules for charging are vastly different than normal combat in that the longest weapon strikes first, you receive a bonus to OB based on the length of the charge and a penalty based on the MM required to achieve that pace (for the charge) and there are other stipulations based for polearms and setting of polearms.
   From my understanding your move and attack are both the same so you are at effectively a 100% move, whether you do that or not.




 OK, I also seem to remember from somewhere else that charging was +2/ instead of +1/, limited by the last distance moved to the target, had to have a pace of run, limited by the OB you have in that you can not receive a bonus greater than your OB and had a max bonus of +50.
 But I cannot find or remember where I got that info. I do like many of the options above especially the pace, limited distance, max OB based on your OB and max bonus of +50. I might even have the bonus increase (ie +1/ to +2/ to +3/) for greater speeds and increase the max bonus for higher paces. Also note that the max bonus IMHO is for normal human sized people and I would adjust it up or down based on the size of the attacker.


Does that help at all?
MDC     

[VladD]

As I'm reading the moving strike entry in SoHK; it never says that any of the combatants move their full speed in feet. The bonus seems to be based on the speed, (feet/ round) rather than on distance (feet traveled). So if you are sprinting (3x move) with a base rate of 60' you attain a speed of 180 or a +18 bonus, but the guy is using a spear, so that is multiplied by 2, but since he needs 60% activity remaining for an attack, he can only move 72' without losing the opportunity to strike. His OB is then modified by +36-5 (easy maneuver) +5 (succesful moving strike maneuver) -40 movement = -4... I'd call that impressive!

If the distance traveled is much less: say 10' minimum, then the +36 bonus isn't reduced so much, leaving a much bigger bonus. Going for a Dash movement (300' with a base rate of 60') yields a +60 bonus when charging with a polearm... on a 10' charge that would be a +60 -20 (maneuver) +20 (if succesful Moving strike) -3 (movement 10') = +57!!!
Then again: you need to succeed with 2 maneuver rolls and the attack roll of course for it to connect...

Thinking even more ahead: When used on horseback with a mounted lance: this could become REALLY nice.

[Jinor]

Thank you for your answers. They have helped and also increased my confusion - markc confirms my understanding, but VladD my fellow players vision. I consider moving strike to be one 100% action where movement and attack are fused into one thus you wouldn't need to keep 60% after movement. One could effectively run 100' (with a base rate of 50'/round) and still attack. I imagine this represents the kind of charge where you do not necessarily stop in front of the enemy after the strike e.g Aragorn decapitating the orc or a lance strike from horseback. The bonus comes from the speed at the moment of impact so you couldn't slow down until your weapon hits. This would lead to the chaos like imagery I have of infantry formations charging into one another.

I know that I can adjusts the rules etc., but what is official?

[jdale]

With regard to the activity requirement, I agree with VladD's interpretation. It doesn't say anything about activity requirements, and never says anything about the actual distance traveled in the example, so I would assume it does not change the activity requirements or anything else about how the round works except as explicitly stated (e.g. it does change the initiative order).

I disagree on one minor point. The difficulty penalty applies to "Combat skills (including attacks)". It further says "The penalty associated with attacking while maneuvering depends on the difficulty of the maneuver." It also says "Note that many Combat Maneuvers do not require a maneuver roll."

My reading is that the -5 penalty for attacking while performing an Easy maneuver is automatically applied to the attack roll. There is no maneuver roll for "Moving Strikes." So you only make one maneuver roll before making the attack roll. This is a little less unwieldy.

If the GM allows the development of a Combat Maneuver skill "Moving Strikes" (it says "the GM may allow" characters to develop this skill, which is not listed as a skill anywhere else, including in the extensive skill lists that make up the majority of this book), its "skill bonus is only used to reduce (or eliminate) the penalty". You never actually roll against it, you just reduce the penalty amount by the skill bonus. If the skill bonus exceeds the penalty, the penalty is eliminated but you don't get any further bonus. This is in line with how many other Combat Maneuvers skills work.

[Kristen Mork]

The intention of 5.4 was to provide an alternative to the move then attack rules presented in RMSR.  In RMSR, there's no way to attack someone while skiing past them.  Nor for two flying dragons to attack one another (unless they get to hover for 0% activity).

So, the intent of 5.4 was as an alternative to move then attack: namely attack while moving.  However, I admit that the modifiers for Routine through Light maneuvers (e.g., running) are so small that there's no reason for someone to choose move (Snap) and then attack (Normal) with a penalty of -1 per 1% distance traveled.  (Of course, there's no reason to stick with the intent of what was written! )

Unfortunately, the rules for moving need to account for flying creatures (where a significant amount of activity is needed to remain aloft) that can make fly-by attacks and humans running around on the battle field.  Simply combining the SoHK rules with the normal RMSR rules makes fly-by attacks (and even most charges) impossible.

In any event, Vlad is correct: the rules in SoHK are based on speed (not distance).  As written, the attack is supposed to be combined with the movement (so no penalty for movement), and there is no Moving Strike maneuver.

So, in Vlad's example: If the BMR is 60' and you are dashing (300' per round).  The bonus is +60 with a polearm (regardless of how much of the 300' were used) - 25 for the Medium maneuver (which could be offset with Moving Strike skill).

Perhaps a decent interpretation would be that all Moving Strike movement must be in a straight line?

[Jinor]

"The attack is part of the movement action, but still requires 100% activity or there will be penalties"

I found a official ruling, but I am not quite finished yet. If you apply normal movement restrictions, then the use of this skill is essentially to change initiative determination and get a bonus to your charge. If you apply it to flying or skiing, then dragons only move 40% although they swoop past each other like horses on a jousting field. Why would they cover less distance while still maintaining a high speed before, during and after the strike?

Moving strike is an extension to the rules which allow you to attack while maneuvering i.e. I could in theory learn to attack while doing acrobatics. Moving maneuvers allow movement up half of your movement (not running). Being the devil's advocate, would it not mean that you could make a set of somersaults to cover over 40% and still make an attack?

I understand that as a moving strike maneuver is a single packet of 100% (you get penalties for less) which is a movement maneuver first and an attack second, there are no explicit limitations concerning distance covered. Is this overpowered?

[MariusH]

Just an observation: Allowing an attack to be part of a movement action, while still doing 100% of the movement action, would be very powerful. It would also render lots of other combat options pointless, as this would always be better than these options (for instance move then attack, react and melee to close on your opponent).

Also, I find it strange that you should be able to spend 100% on something AND be able to do something else. So, I can either run 100% and do NOTHING, or I could run 100% AND ATTACK, and it's just as easy and requires just the same percentage activity. Just feels wrong to me. Also, it messes with the "melee is more than just that one swing" thinking.

[Kristen Mork]

I think the difficulty arises in that most movement (swimming, flying, climbing, etc.) requires significant activity (50% or more, which precludes making an attack).  The exception is walking/running, which can be performed in small increments (e.g., 10% for bookkeeping ease).

So, let me throw out an interpretation:
* A moving maneuver requires at least 50% activity.
* In some cases (such as climbing or swimming) you can choose not to use all available movement (or even choose not to move).
* In other cases (such as skiing or flying) you must use at least 50% of the available movement (i.e., stopping is hard (skiing) or impossible (flying)).
* Walking/jogging/running is (usually) not a moving maneuver (it just takes activity), but sprinting (and faster) is a moving maneuver.
* One can allocate up to 40% to movement (walking/jogging/running) and still make an attack at a penalty.
* While making moving maneuvers, one can make a "Moving Strike," in which case the difficulty penalties apply, and can be offset by Moving Strike skill.

The major drawback is dealing with an opponent that is running away (i.e., both participants are moving at a run pace).

The charge modifiers could be applied in either case, or just in the case of a sprint+ attack.

[markc]

  I think the other thing that can be seen is the advantage of pole weapons and the fact they can be set against a "charge" attack.
MDC

[jdale]

I'm not sure it's really unbalancing in any way. You generally grant your opponent at least as good a bonus as you receive yourself, often better. The only issue is if people have declared melee attacks against nearby targets before you charge in. That can become a bit unbalancing because the declaration requirements are (in my opinion) unrealistically strict.

But it does seem like it invalidates some of the normal options, and unlike the normal activity requirements (percentage for movement activity = attack penalty), adds another table lookup and possibly a maneuver roll. Personally I would probably simplify, e.g.

Charge And Attack: You must begin this action at least 20' from your opponent, but no more than your base movement rate from them. E.g. if your base movement rate is 60'/round, you must be between 20 and 60' from your opponent. As an attack action, you move to a position within melee range of the opponent and make a regular melee attack. You may use no more than 50% of your OB for parrying. If your opponent had declared a melee attack against you, or he declared a "React and melee attack" action and has not yet made a melee attack, he receives an additional +20 bonus for that attack, and if he has a longer weapon his attack is resolved on your turn before your own attack. This action requires 60-100% activity (for both movement and attack); any amount less than 100% is applied as a penalty to your OB.

That cancels out all the penalties and nothing special to compute, no skill to worry about. Speed is assumed to be a run but you don't cover as much ground because the attack is also in there. If you need to cover more ground, you can use up to 40% activity for a normal movement action before the charge, so it's still flexible but in a way that is consistent with how movement normally works.

[Kristen Mork]

That works well for ground maneuvers, but doesn't seem to handle flying/skiing (wherein you cannot easily stop moving), nor climbing/swimming (wherein even staying put requires a maneuver).

[jdale]

That's true but I think part of the problem with the RAW here is that the moving strike option is sometimes better and sometimes worse than the normal movement/attack activity split, so you almost have to figure it out both ways before deciding what to do. So I don't think this one-rule-for-all-maneuvers is the best solution.

Aside from this there are basically two situations I think: situations where your mode of transport means you must remain in motion, and situations where maintaining position requires a maneuver.

Remaining in motion would be things like non-hovering flight and skiing. Activity is not required to continue moving. Activity is required to maintain control. If the maneuver to retain control fails, movement may continue, it just may not be in the desired manner/direction. The easiest solution is to handle this like riding a horse. Develop and use Moving Strikes just like the skill Mounted Combat.

Then you have situations where maintaining position requires a maneuver, like climbing and swimming. These aren't moving strike situations. I would use the normal movement/attack activity split. Less activity for the movement maneuver should increase the difficulty.

[Ynglaur]

Sounds like Guild Companion needs to publish a good optional rule to cover charges.  Of note: charging *should* be the "best" option in many cases; there's a reason most ancient battles opened with a charge.  Just remember exhaustion penalties: charge from too far away, in heavy armor, and you'll be winded by the time you reach your target.