Topic: Moving Strike - rule clarification request

[Jinor]

Yes, Guild companion, save us.

So far there has been brilliant ideas and interpretations, but I still have to wonder what did the original writers have in mind when writing SoHK section 5.4.

I agree with Peter Mork's interpretation about movement, moving maneuvers and how they connect, but did you mean that a medium climbing maneuver would get a penalty only from difficulty i.e. -25 from a medium maneuver? Running with 40% would give you -40? Or would the climbing have additional penalties?

[jdale]

Sadly our RM group does not play very often. I would be uncomfortable submitting an article with alternate rules that I haven't playtested at all. If someone feels like trying out some of these ideas in actual practice I am all for it! If they want to write it up and submit it that is great too.

[Kristen Mork]

Yes, Guild companion, save us.

So far there has been brilliant ideas and interpretations, but I still have to wonder what did the original writers have in mind when writing SoHK section 5.4.

My initial reply indicates what the original writers had in mind, but my subsequent comments correctly imply that I no longer agree with what I originally wrote.

I agree with Peter Mork's interpretation about movement, moving maneuvers and how they connect, but did you mean that a medium climbing maneuver would get a penalty only from difficulty i.e. -25 from a medium maneuver? Running with 40% would give you -40? Or would the climbing have additional penalties?

My thought was that a Medium climbing maneuver would suffer from a -25 only.  However, I agree with jdale that we need separate rules for maneuvering in place, attacking en passant / charging, and moving into position.  I welcome a Guild Companion submission!

[MariusH]

I'd rather make skiing possible with less percentage activity. I don't see why you shouldn't be able to move just half the distance on skis. But "swing at a foe while skiing past him" is something different. If you're using all your activity to move, I don't see how you could attack. The best thing you could get is one "swing" at your foe, which can hardly be compared to attacking that foe for the entire round (or at least 60% of it).

As for flying: We handle the flying spell so that you're motionles in the air if not actively flying, and you can use any percentage to fly, just like running. For flying creatures it's different, but we still allow dragons to fly by and breathe fire. But they could have moved faster if NOT breathing fire, which simply means they use less percent activity to fly (I don't see this as "fly, stop, breathe fire, fly again, even if it means snap=fly, normal=breathe fire, deliberate=fly; that's just the game mechanics, what really happens is it flies by and breathes fire). They would have to fly at a higher "pace", which really just means more exhaustion points and a more difficult maneouver, neither of which probably means anything for a flying creature in a normal setting.

But that's just the way we play it :-)

[Kristen Mork]

Basically, the movement/attacking rules should be able to handle:

• Standing and fighting
• Moving around an opponent while fighting
• Swinging at an opponent while chasing him
• Swinging (once) while moving past an opponent
• Fighting while engaged in "forced" movement (flying/downhill skiing), i.e., you will move or you will crash/fall
• Fighting while maneuvering, but not moving (climbing/swimming), i.e., a maneuver is needed to stay in place (hanging on to a rope/treading water)

Supporting all of these options (plus some that I've missed) is a challenge!

(With respect to the fly spell, I find it too powerful for a low-level spell.  I require Airborne Combat and some movement each round.)

[MariusH]

For ordinary combat (melee or missile) while flying, we impose VERY heavy penalties, but we allow spellcasting as usual, so casting fly on fighters is of little use.

In principle, I agree that the rules should be able to handle all these situations and more. However, not allowing something IS a way to handle it.

I'd handle the first four bullets by the "standard" combat options. For point 3, that would mean "react and melee", or, if you manage to get adjecent to your opponent at some point, "press and melee". If he's faster than you, obviously no attack is possible. Point 4 I'd handle by move in snap, attack in normal, then move in deliberate (or "disengage from melee", if you think your opponent might attack back and thus have you "in melee"). Or react and melee, then move away (in this case "disengage from melee" is normally impossible, since react and melee requires 80% and disengage from melee requires 25%).

The last two points are more challenging, but still manageable. Some things I'd just not allow (probably downhill skiing and attacking - if I allow this, why can't I attack ALL foes along my path, if I can attack with 0% activity while doing a 100% action? Also, I think an attack has to be more than one "swing" in order to compare this to a normal attack, where you spend the entire round in melee and STILL get only one attack. The alternative would be a second-based system, with attacks every second by the one in melee, and one single attack by the "ski-fighter", but that's not a path I'm starting down). For other things I'd say you need to do your movement, but in some cases you can attempt this at less than 40% activity at a penalty and be able to attack.

Anyway, that's how we'd probably handle it. Always room for improvement, though! :-)

[Kristen Mork]

Standing and fighting

Yes, easily handled.

Moving around an opponent while fighting

Handled moderately well, although suffering a penalty of -10 for walking five feet to circle around an opponent is kind of rough.

Swinging at an opponent while chasing him

For point 3, that would mean "react and melee", or, if you manage to get adjecent to your opponent at some point, "press and melee". If he's faster than you, obviously no attack is possible.

I disagree, the RAW don't handle this one at all.  If you need to move more than 40% then you cannot attack.  Thus, as long as your opponent can move as half as fast as you can, he can avoid being attacked.  Sure, you can kick up the pace to get an attack in, but so can your opponent.  As a result, unless you are significantly faster than your opponent, he's going to get away.  Cinematic, perhaps, but frustrating for players!

Swinging (once) while moving past an opponent

Point 4 I'd handle by move in snap, attack in normal, then move in deliberate (or "disengage from melee')

First, the rules don't really specify a penalty for choosing a move action rather than a disengage from melee action.  But, that's really a different thread.  Let's assume that once you're "in melee" you must use a disengage action to leave melee.  Then, a charge attack becomes: Move at most 15%, attack at -40, then disengage 25%.  At a Fast Sprint pace (lots of exhaustion points gone), that's 30' of movement + 10' for the disengage, all for a charge attack at -40.  (If we throw in SoHK, you can get half of that back, or all of it with a pole arm.  I.e., even with SoHK charge bonuses, a charge attack is rarely worth the effort.)

Fighting while engaged in "forced" movement (flying/downhill skiing), i.e., you will move or you will crash/fall

if I allow this, why can't I attack ALL foes along my path

The rules are very unclear with respect to flying.  If a flying creature can remain aloft for 0% activity, then flying creatures can all hover (a feat most birds cannot accomplish).  Thus, it would seem that a hawk (or other similar creature) is forced to use the charging rules in the previous case.

With respect to attacking everything along one's path, the same issue arises if you allow mounted combat.  When two knights ride past each other, they both (presumably) get an attack, even though there's only one "swing" involved.  We can claim that the mount is doing all of the moving, but is that much different than gravity providing the movement when standing on a slope with skis on your feet?

Fighting while maneuvering, but not moving (climbing/swimming), i.e., a maneuver is needed to stay in place (hanging on to a rope/treading water)

And, the rules are also not clear how to handle these situations at all.  Perhaps such maneuvers require only a small amount of activity (e.g., 20%), but that runs counter to the RAW, which indicate that climbing and swimming require (IIRC) at least 50% activity.

Not that I have great suggestions.  Just that the RAW are (IMHO) overly restrictive.

[Ynglaur]

I think part of the challenge is that RAW represents rounds of "about" 10 seconds, and attack rolls represent multiple thrusts, parries, etc.  Attacking someone while moving past them amounts to something akin to a charge: you have one shot at hitting your target (and, possibly, vice versa).  I think the React & Melee rules (similar to the Opportunity Fire rules in Space Master 2nd edition) are the best bet for a simple system.  You get a straight -20 just for being opportunistic, minus whatever Action you required to get to your target, understanding that if you have less than 60% Action remaining, you can't attack (you're too busy not falling down, or controlling your wyvern, or whatever).  I agree that in the case of skiing, it makes sense to have skiing maneuvers use less than 100% Activity.  The Riding rules probably provide decent guidance here.

[jdale]

Swinging at an opponent while chasing him

For point 3, that would mean "react and melee", or, if you manage to get adjecent to your opponent at some point, "press and melee". If he's faster than you, obviously no attack is possible.

I disagree, the RAW don't handle this one at all.  If you need to move more than 40% then you cannot attack.  Thus, as long as your opponent can move as half as fast as you can, he can avoid being attacked.  Sure, you can kick up the pace to get an attack in, but so can your opponent.  As a result, unless you are significantly faster than your opponent, he's going to get away.  Cinematic, perhaps, but frustrating for players!

Swinging (once) while moving past an opponent

Point 4 I'd handle by move in snap, attack in normal, then move in deliberate (or "disengage from melee')

First, the rules don't really specify a penalty for choosing a move action rather than a disengage from melee action.  But, that's really a different thread.  Let's assume that once you're "in melee" you must use a disengage action to leave melee.  Then, a charge attack becomes: Move at most 15%, attack at -40, then disengage 25%.  At a Fast Sprint pace (lots of exhaustion points gone), that's 30' of movement + 10' for the disengage, all for a charge attack at -40.  (If we throw in SoHK, you can get half of that back, or all of it with a pole arm.  I.e., even with SoHK charge bonuses, a charge attack is rarely worth the effort.)

I wonder if these two situations can be best handled by simply allowing melee attacks with less than 60% activity. Suppose you are chasing someone and make an attack with 20% activity. It's at -80, but you get +35 for a rear attack on the person you are chasing away, and they aren't going to be parrying either. This is not a very good circumstance for making an effective attack, so the penalty is not unreasonable. The net result is that if you are the same speed as the person you are chasing, they will gradually pull away. Not unreasonable since they are totally focused on escaping. But if you are a little bit faster you can eventually run them down.

For the situation of one swing as you run by, this is highly disadvantageous, if they are ready for your attack. In that case they have their parry and can attack you back without a big activity penalty, whereas the attacker is at a big minus (assuming most of their activity is in movement and not in the attack). But if they aren't ready for your attack, especially if there are positional modifiers, you could do some damage.

The main problem here, I think, is that it opens things up for multiple attacks. An easy fix would be to simply say "maximum of one attack per 100% activity". Are there other problems it would create?

[Kristen Mork]

I wonder if these two situations can be best handled by simply allowing melee attacks with less than 60% activity. Suppose you are chasing someone and make an attack with 20% activity. It's at -80, but you get +35 for a rear attack on the person you are chasing away, and they aren't going to be parrying either. This is not a very good circumstance for making an effective attack, so the penalty is not unreasonable. The net result is that if you are the same speed as the person you are chasing, they will gradually pull away. Not unreasonable since they are totally focused on escaping. But if you are a little bit faster you can eventually run them down.

For the situation of one swing as you run by, this is highly disadvantageous, if they are ready for your attack. In that case they have their parry and can attack you back without a big activity penalty, whereas the attacker is at a big minus (assuming most of their activity is in movement and not in the attack). But if they aren't ready for your attack, especially if there are positional modifiers, you could do some damage.

The main problem here, I think, is that it opens things up for multiple attacks. An easy fix would be to simply say "maximum of one attack per 100% activity". Are there other problems it would create?

I think your suggestions handles a chase scene just fine.  I don't think it handles two people crashing into each other with spears (while on foot).  The penalty for moving means that you want to wait for your opponent to approach (eating the penalty) while you prepare your attack.

[jdale]

Agreed, there should be a charge action. I'm just trying to carve away as much as possible so charge is just for charging. And keep as much as possible consistent with normal mechanisms.

[Kristen Mork]

Good call.  In that case, I think that reducing the minimum percentage and adding a special case that you get one attack per round fixes many problems.  (Until you throw haste/TWC/etc. into the mix.)

Peter

[naphta23]

How would you handle the following situation:

Spearwielder charges a defender, but does neither slow down for the attack, nor move by or around the defender, thus trying to "run through" the defender with the spear's pointy end first.

In my opinion the spearwielder should not suffer a penalty for moving, since the movement is an integral part of the attack. On the other hand, the defender should receive a bonus if he can sidestep the attack, forcing the spearwielder to correct the course and lose momentum  .

[yammahoper]

How would you handle the following situation:

Spearwielder charges a defender, but does neither slow down for the attack, nor move by or around the defender, thus trying to "run through" the defender with the spear's pointy end first.

In my opinion the spearwielder should not suffer a penalty for moving, since the movement is an integral part of the attack. On the other hand, the defender should receive a bonus if he can sidestep the attack, forcing the spearwielder to correct the course and lose momentum  .

Charging mnv.  RMCIII has a good ruleset.  Short stuff: +1 OB/10' movement with thrusting weapon, x2 hits.  +1 OB/20' movement with non thrusting weapon.

[naphta23]

Charging mnv.  RMCIII has a good ruleset.  Short stuff: +1 OB/10' movement with thrusting weapon, x2 hits.  +1 OB/20' movement with non thrusting weapon.

Thank you very much for your help! 
My players are going to hate you for it. 

[yammahoper]

Charging mnv.  RMCIII has a good ruleset.  Short stuff: +1 OB/10' movement with thrusting weapon, x2 hits.  +1 OB/20' movement with non thrusting weapon.

Thank you very much for your help! 
My players are going to hate you for it. 

It can get worse 

Say, x2D on foot, x3 from horse back.

Bring that down a little.  Say, x1.5D charging on foot, x2D from horse, x2.5D from warhorse, x3D from greater warhorse.  Creatures that already receive a hit multiple add +1 to their bonus.

[mtpnj]

To keep it simple we use the chart in Rolemaster companion 4 on page 20.  Based on your speed and action you roll under that column on movement/maneuver table to see what percentage of action you have remaining to attack, defend or whatever.   Only modifier we apply is armor penalty.  Agility is already figured in to armor skill and quickness is already figured into base movement rate so applying them again would be a double benefit.