Topic: RMSS - Entity Summons Spell List

[aarcc]

Was wondering what creatures exactly people allow to be summoned using this list. Fire & Ice lists a load in Ch 7. To me the creatures one can summon are very powerful at a comparatively low level.

Thoughts?

[providence13]

For me, Entity Summons is similar but not the same as Elemental Summons or even Planar Summons. But I do wish there was more common ground on rules.

Different cultures might have alt entities. One culture might have elementals, another demons , still others might use djinn or fairy creatures. Make a list of creatures that fit your game and the spell List.
One player has the EssCo Elemental Summons List and summons Elementals from C&M. I offered the F&I List, but he wanted the stock elementals and that's what he gets.


I really like the creatures and levels of power in Fire & Ice. Making each 'Type' be 5 lvls made more sense than the old way where type had little to do with lvl. Now, Type I is "up to" 5th lvl, Type II is up to 10th lvl, III is 15th, etc. But there's still a letter after the lvl which can give another variable in that range if you want to use it. 5H is -3 to +4 lvls, if you want to use the chart in C&M. You could make them weaker unless they develop Summoning skill, or something.

The creatures can be powerful. Here's some of the issues I have dealt with:

Everyone's game is different, but the way the rules read, these beings are enslaved; totally against their will. If it makes the RR, it goes straight into fight or flight. You either have to constantly Control them (50%Act concentration) or Master them (no concentration but a higher lvl spell) or they go into fight or flight. If they want to travel around with elementals, even outside the city, another caster can try to take control using the same spells. If you have elementals around, then you will be fighting them eventually.
 
Control/Mastery is also broken by range limit. If it leaves the range, it will attack or flee. My characters don't have pocket laser distancers. If you know the range is 120' and the pc's see an enemy at 130'.. what happens if the elemental is commanded to engage? You might allow casters to sense the range of their active spells. If so, they'll rarely send them out of range.

Elemental Summons from Essence Companion allows 3 Elemental Servants, 3 Weak Elementals and 3 Strong Elementals to be Mastered at once. That's a lot of critters for one Mage to handle. Never let players use them as NPC's. Every time our Mage says "the Weak Elemental is going to protect me and the servant is going to go here and look for.." I stop him and say "Only touch your miniature" and "what commands do you give them?"

The F&I List allows more variety of creatures and allows a chance that weaker/stronger creatures are summoned. I like this variability. Now there's a reason for the Summoning skill.
But with that List, you can master as many creatures as you have levels, half must be from your element. As a house rule, if you actually pick a specific element for this List, I make the fight or flight be 25/75 instead of 50/50. You have something in common so it doesn't hate you as much.
At first, I allowed players to take either Elemental Summons List. From now own I'm only using the F&I List. It's better fleshed out and things are complicated with the slight differences.

Never let elementals or any obviously summoned entity into town. No guard or halfling sherrif worth his salt would ever stand for that.

For the EssCo List, you can't even talk to them until 11th lv Elemental Communication spell and the description makes a point to say they aren't automatically friendly. You can mentally tell them what to do with other Master/Control spells (I make the player use 5 words or less.), but they can't talk back without that spell.

A player had his Air Elemental go into a side tunnel to "kill all the giant spiders" there. Air Elementals are not gentle creatures. The party came in to "count the loot" after the elemental did all the dirty work. I described broken bottles, crushed shields, mangled arrows and tatters of chainmail strewn about the cave (magic items failed RR). The player was upset about losing treasure but realized you can't send a bull to the market.

Utility Spells
RM has a lot of Lists but only a few handful of very high spells that utterly control someone's mind. Even then they won't likely blind themselves, etc. I don't allow Utility spells to work on elementals. How can something that will flee or attack as soon as it's released be willing? You control the actions, but not their mind, IMHO.
I don't allow Fly, Haste, etc to affect elementals. Now if you somehow Control/Master an Elemental Savant, then it can convince the lesser elemental to allow the spell because lesser elementals always defer to greater... but that's the only way.

In C&M it says that "elementals maintain contact with the ground". I do allow air and fire elementals to fly. But I wish I never opened that can of worms..

So let them summon whatever the theme of the List provides, but it doesn't have to be out of your control.

[providence13]

Here's another related discussion that could help.
http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=10912.msg138003#msg138003

[Ynglaur]

"You could make them weaker unless they develop Summoning skill, or something."

This is a great idea.  I've wondered what use the Summoning skill could have, but this would be a good one.  Now it's got me thinking Summoning could affect mind contests, precision of summoning particular entities, etc.

[aarcc]

Ref: RMSS Spell Law Pages 84 and 126

Also I think this list also allows too easy control* of summoned creatures and a more or less permanent duration. (See Lv 6 Entity Mastery I pg 126). Should the limitation on Pg 84 under Lv 2 Summons I be used. So if the entity has to perform a dangerous task it's only there for rounds.

Also how does the summoner communicate with demons if summoned?

Also if you had 2 controlled Demons from Entity Summons wouldn't they most likely fight each other and even if you had only one it would be super hard to keep under control?

*"Control" - I think the creature should get a Resistance roll vs caster.

Thoughts?

[Abdanck]

For my Rolemaster Game (Using RM2) i have done a conversion chart with Pathfinder RPG bestiary.

Indeed i'm using Adventure Path from Paizo converted to RM2.


Demon (Abyss)
Type 1 (CR 1-2-3) : Dretch, Quasit, Yeth Hound
Type 2 (CR 4-5) : Barghest
Type 3 (CR 6-7) : Babau, Succubus, Shadow Demon, Greater Barghest
Type 4 (CR 8-9-10) : Vrock, Bebilith, Nabasu
Type 5 (CR 11-12-13) : Hezrou, Retriever, Glabrezu
Type 6 (CR 14-15-16) : Nalfeshnee
Type 7 (CR 17-18-19) : Marilith
Lord (CR 20+) : Balor


Daemon (Abaddon)
Type 1 (CR 1-2-3) :
Type 2 (CR 4-5) : Nightmare
Type 3 (CR 6-7) :
Type 4 (CR 8-9-10) : Night Hag
Type 5 (CR 11-12-13) : Cauchemar, Astradaemon
Type 6 (CR 14-15-16) :
Type 7 (CR 17-18-19) :
Lord (CR 20+) :


Devil (Hell)
Type 1 (CR 1-2-3) : Lemure, Imp, Hell Hound, Gaav
Type 2 (CR 4-5) : Barbazu
Type 3 (CR 6-7) : Chain Devil (Kyton), Magaav, Levaloch
Type 4 (CR 8-9-10) : Nessian, Erinyes, Osyluth, Phistophilus
Type 5 (CR 11-12-13) : Hamatula, Ayngavhaul, Gelugon
Type 6 (CR 14-15-16) : Cornugon, Bedellavrita
Type 7 (CR 17-18-19) : Deimavigga
Lord (CR 20+) : Pit Fiend


Archon (Heaven)
Type 1 (CR 1-2-3) : Lantern Archon
Type 2 (CR 4-5) : Hound Archon
Type 3 (CR 6-7) :
Type 4 (CR 8-9-10) :
Type 5 (CR 11-12-13) :
Type 6 (CR 14-15-16) : Trumpet Archon, Astral Deva, Planetar
Type 7 (CR 17-18-19) :
Lord (CR 20+) : Solar


Azata (Elysium)
Type 1 (CR 1-2-3) :
Type 2 (CR 4-5) :
Type 3 (CR 6-7) : Bralani, Lillend
Type 4 (CR 8-9-10) :
Type 5 (CR 11-12-13) : Ghaele
Type 6 (CR 14-15-16) : Astral Deva, Planetar
Type 7 (CR 17-18-19) :
Lord (CR 20+) : Solar


Elemental (Earth, Wind, Fire, Water)
Type 1 (CR 1-2) : Small Elemental
Type 2 (CR 3-4) : Medium Elemental, Mephit, Janni
Type 3 (CR 5-6) : Large Elemental, Djinni, Xorn, Salamander
Type 4 (CR 7-8) : Huge Elemental, Efreeti, Invisible Stalker, Shaitan,
Type 5 (CR 9-10) : Greater Elemental, Marid
Type 6 (CR 11-12) : Elder Elemental
Type 7 (CR 13-14) :
Lord (CR 15+) :


(Ethereal)
Type 1 (CR 1-2) : Spirit
Type 2 (CR 3-4) : Spirit
Type 3 (CR 5-6-7) : Spirit V, Xill, Phase Spider, Specter, Ghost
Type 4 (CR 8-9-10) : Spirit, Night Hag, Greater Specter, Greater Ghost
Type 5 (CR 11-12-13) : Spirit, Greater Ghost
Type 6 (CR 14-15-16) : Spirit
Type 7 (CR 17-18-19) : Spirit
Lord (CR 20+) :


Undead (Negative Energy Plane aka the Void)
Type 1 (CR 1-2) : Skeleton, Zombie, Ghoul
Type 2 (CR 3-4) : Skeletal Champion, Shadow, Wight
Type 3 (CR 5-6) : Mummy*, Wraith
Type 4 (CR 7-8) : Ghost, Specter, Greater Shadow, Mhorg, Ghoulking*
Type 5 (CR 9-10) : Vampire*, Mummy Lord*, Greater Ghost, Greater Specter, Greater Wraith
Type 6 (CR 11-12) : Vampire Lord*, Lich*
* Can’t be summoned. Need a special Ritual to create

[markc]

Abdanck,
 Nice charts. I always love to see just what people have done with other settings and conversions. I do like how it is broken out vs planes or dimensions with slots empty where you could fill in with more powerful lesser summoned creatures.
MDC

[aarcc]

Shouldn't "Entities" get an RR vs being controlled or mastered?

At the mo caster only has a small chance of failure.

[Cory Magel]

I suspect most 'control' spells kinda of work that idea into the process.