Topic: Monk's Bridge. Levitation

[Jacchan]

Some question on Levitation (Monk's bridge, monk base list, essence)...
A monk's could use Levitation while falling from a cliff, at example? Or Levitation need to start with feet on the groiund (ot similar)?
After he move up (or down), monk can float in the air (inside the duration of the spell levitation)?

[Ecthelion]

A monk's could use Levitation while falling from a cliff, at example?

The problem could be that Levitation is not an instantaneous spell but takes 75% activity, i.e. ~7-8 seconds, to cast. In most cases the caster already hits the ground before casting the spell is done. But if the fall is long enough then you could theoretically allow the caster to cast while already falling and then slow his fall until he comes to a standstill. And afterwards he could levitate normally.

Or Levitation need to start with feet on the groiund (ot similar)?

I would advise to handle it that way.

After he move up (or down), monk can float in the air (inside the duration of the spell levitation)?

IMO yes.

[Jacchan]

Thanks Ecthelion. 
Levitation is istantaneous. But I think i'll have a chat with my player to insert the restriction that he need a firm surface to cast this spell.
Another possibly use...
He wants be able to levitate and, when it is at a certain height, use a bow. Is possible? If it is, i think that shoot a arrow without a firm surface for the feet have some penalty (-30?)...

[Ecthelion]

Similar to Mounted Combat, for attacking from horseback, you could limit the OB by a new Aerial Combat skill, for attacking while in mid-air.

[Jacchan]

Good idea, thanks!
Very last question (sorry!)... A monk can cast a istantanous like great leap (Monk's bridge, 10th) around the end of round, to be up in the air ( a 12th level monk can jump 60' vertically)at the beginning of the next round and cast in the next round snap "levitation"? A little trick to go up quickly. 

[providence13]

Similar to what Ecthelion said,
We use 3x Agility bonus or your Acrobatics skill. Acrobatics describes in air maneuvers (eg. "Flying or Levitation" SoHK, pg 20.) so you don't have to make up a new skill.
The Flying skill is specifically for aerial maneuvers involving wings that provide lift; birds, planes, clockwork orinthopters, etc. We don't use Flying for maneuverability spells like Levitation and the various Fly spells. We use 3x Ag or Acrobatics.

If you decide to treat it like Mounted Combat, your skill with a bow can be limited by Acrobatics. This is the same as your skill with a sword is limited by your Mounted Combat while on a horse.

I think the -30 you propose is fair, but if you treat missile weapons while Flying or Levitating just like Mounted Combat it works too. Now you don't need the penalty, they just need to put ranks in Acrobatics.
  The rules are there, they're just hidden between the lines. 

If you use %Activity, keep in mind the BMR or the spell is now 100%Act. A Fly spell that allows 75'/rnd translates to 75' movement /rnd. If they want to move 75', they've used 100%Act and don't have any left for firing their bow. Using missile weapons or doing anything else while flying will slow them down. Until they start casting Fly Tue. 

[RandalThor]

Good idea, thanks!
Very last question (sorry!)... A monk can cast a istantanous like great leap (Monk's bridge, 10th) around the end of round, to be up in the air ( a 12th level monk can jump 60' vertically)at the beginning of the next round and cast in the next round snap "levitation"? A little trick to go up quickly. 

The way I would rule this is as follows:

Great Leap is cast in the last part of round 1, but he doesn't actually jump yet, because jumping is still an action that he has to take. (The spell says "allows" not does or automatically jumps the character, but allows them to jump farther tahn normal, but they still have to take the movement action to perform the jump itself.) So, in the beginning next round before the jump, the character casts Levitation - provided he is not interrupted. Then on his main action he will do the MM for the jump, with that rool telling me how well he timed when his levitation will kick in. He may overshoot or start too soon, if that is even a problem. But, I would only bother with this if there was reason to, like he was under attack or needed to do it perfectly or he would miss the opening to whatever. Otherwise, I would not bother, just make them roll the spell casting for the two spells and if those are successful just have them describe what they want to do and it happens - so long as it is in line with the spell perameters. (No going further/long than the spell says, etc...)

Spell mastery could be used to modify the MM or in a more normal fashion, like distance of jump or duration of levitation provided they have the right spell mastery, of course.

[jdale]

It's not really significant, but I was curious about conservation of momentum for a levitating archer.

Typical English longbow arrows were about 1000-1500 grains. (Shortbow arrows would be less.)
1200 grains = 0.1714 lbs
Initial velocity around 55 m/s or 180 ft/s

Momentum is conversed, so if a 200 lbs archer fires an arrow of this mass and velocity, they will be propelled at a speed of 0.154 ft/s in the opposite direction. Since the RM round is 10 seconds, that's a rate of 1.5 ft/round. When the archer is standing on the ground, the energy is absorbed by the bow, their stance muscles, etc, and they aren't pushed back. However, if you are floating in the air with very low friction, you would be moved and continue to float back for at least a couple of rounds. One arrow isn't going to make a big difference but if you spend the combat up there it might add up.

If you want to be mean, the arrow is fired from above your center of mass. So if the levitation spell does not provide any stabilizing force, you would actually start to tumble. With practice, you could probably take a posture that pulls your center of mass up closer to the level of the arrow to compensate for this. If you feel like you want to limit this tactic, you could consider this issue.

[RandalThor]

I think you are getting too scientific with it, its magic. Don't treat is like science it will ruin the magic of it. (Magic is magic, get it?)

Make the effects of doing non-standard things with spells more unpredictable, that way an element of mystery and uncertainty is maintained. I said it on another thread, but I will go into a little more detail here.

Magic is belief. The magician's spells do what they do because he focuses essence through his will of shaping the energy, and because he believes it will do what he wants it to do - because he was taught that it would, and because he has seen it.

So, the magician fully believes that when he focuses the right amount of essence, says the correct words and does the correct gestures, a fireball will shoot forth from his hand to explode against his target.

Only through special training (spell mastery) can he alter the effects of his spell at will, and trying to cast the spell with limitations, like quietly, is harder because he believes it is. And, when he tries to do the unusual with a spell, like fire a bow while levitating (which is basically just about going up and down in the air), the results are unpredictable because the magician doesn't really know what will happen, he may have an idea, but he doesn't know. Is it possible for a set effect to come into place after attempting the unusual? I don't know, is it?

[providence13]

Typical English longbow arrows were about 1000-1500 grains. (Shortbow arrows would be less.)
1200 grains = 0.1714 lbs
Initial velocity around 55 m/s or 180 ft/s...
 One arrow isn't going to make a big difference but if you spend the combat up there it might add up.
If you want to be mean, the arrow is fired from above your center of mass. So if the levitation spell does not provide any stabilizing force, you would actually start to tumble. With practice, you could probably take a posture that pulls your center of mass up closer to the level of the arrow to compensate for this. If you feel like you want to limit this tactic, you could consider this issue.

Thanks jdale.
I appreciate the physics of it. -5 or even -10/arrow could work. Eventually, you have to stabilize with an Acrobatics roll. Or your skill just cancels the penalties, no extra roll required.

There's more than one way to rule lifting a Monk.

[Jacchan]

jdale, your analysis is really interesting.
Well, a lot o factors are involved...

[Dreven1]

Areal combat is very dangerous and powerful when combined with spells.  VERY easy to abuse IMO. 

After working with these spells for years, I have a house rule (I don't think its as harsh as Combat Companions rules), three thoughts about it, either:

1) Have them develop the Flying/Gliding skill and only be able to use up to the Flying/Gliding skills bonus when attacking with your Missile weapon/Spell

OR, if it is still too powerful

2) Restrict the flying/gliding spells to (C) concentration.  Therefore you cannot fire a missile weapon whilst concentrating on the spell... either fly OR shoot but not both.  If you don't want to be that restrictive then combine these two...

3) Must develop flying/gliding as a skill, only be able to use your weapons bonus up to your flying/gliding skills bonus AND restrict the spell to "C" concentration so that 50% of activity is used on the spell incurring a -10 penalty for the missile attack for only being able to use 50% of the rest of their round to fire (Max for a missile attack is 60% activity).

My two cents
Drev

[providence13]

Hey Dreven1,
I totally understand your logic and it sounds like you have a good handle on it for your games.

For me, normal walking/running doesn't take concentration, so I do think that requiring it for Flying isn't necessary either. Movement (any kind) does require %Act so my rules might be a bit more harsh.   
 If you run up to an opponent, then you've spent %Act, thus reducing the amount you have for combat. I always tell my players, let them approach you.
 If you Fly up to an opponent, the same rules apply. They need to coincide their arrival with the start of the round, if possible. Most Fly spells are faster than a walking pace, but  each spell has a max on speed. Like was mentioned above, I don't let them dive for increased speed unless they cancel the spell and then cast it again. That had better be a long fall for all of that, or Spell Mastered to an instant spell.

jdale,
I thought about your conservation of momentum approach and I agree that it would make a small difference. Yeah, you don't have the ground to push against but you do have the weight limit for movement spells.
 If you use the 1.5 x caster's weight + 5 lbs/level, one arrow would have less effect. The Flying/Levitated archer wouldn't weigh 200 lbs, he would effectively weigh 200 x 1.5 +5 lbs/level; assuming he actually cast the spell and it wasn't from a scroll, potion, etc.

Does that make sense? I could be off, but that's how I see it after considering the actual strength of movement spells. You do have the spell to push against.

[jdale]

The calculation of momentum analysis assumes levitation only provides a lifting force. I don't mean to suggest that it must be interpreted this way, only that it's available if you want to create complications for people using (or overusing) levitation. You could also say that there is a certain amount of Staying force (as the spell) which prevents you from being moved laterally -- might be useful to prevent getting blown around by the wind (which is certainly easier to ignore). If you want, you could say that there is a limit to how much Staying is possible, so normal winds or shooting arrows won't affect you, but hurricane winds or a cannon or being struck by a giant will be a problem. Totally within the discretion of the GM.

[Cory Magel]

Some (many possibly) may see the propulsion side-effect as beneficial...

[markc]

 I would require a skill such as mounted combat but called combat levitation to limit the max OB of the person firing the bow. Glide/Flying is for winged creatures only.
 In the past I also have used the persons acrobatics as a limiting factor for OB in such cases.


MDC

[Dreven1]

Hey all,

Speaking to the Player/DM perspective about all this... I play "Heroic Fantasy" which basically acts like a "Space Opra" in SpaceMaster instead of relying upon real physics.  If you play a Heroic Fantasy style game, all sorts of nice, cool playing opens open up, or issues are resolved fairly easily.  If you play with actual physics, you will get bogged down in the details and most players wont enjoy the game, at least in our games.

For instance, in SpaceMaster... if you play with real Einstein equations, space travel becomes a philosophical discussion about space/time vs. saying "You leave one point, travel at light speed for 3 hours, cover that distance and arrive 3 hours later".  With Relativity and according to real physics, several hundreds of years would have passed between the time on the ship and the "outside" universe.  If this is something you just simply love tormenting your players with (or if they like this leather-whip style torture) then go for it! 

However, most players (including the 35 or so I have had over the past 20 years) really like the playability of a "Space Opra" or "Heroic Fantasy" and not try to base judgment calls on real physics.

So, IMHO, if a Monk can rush a Fly spell (or teleport) to "instant" I usually let them catch themselves in mid-flight or BOINK to the point they want, survive, and move on with the rest of the adventure... it will save a 5+ hour debate on what should actually happen according to actual physics. 

Great discussion by the way! 
Drev