Author Topic: Combat with a broken arm  (Read 1987 times)

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Offline Jacchan

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Combat with a broken arm
« on: May 27, 2013, 05:42:53 AM »
A sorcerer broke a limb at a lv 9 warrior, with flesh destruction.
Dice roll to see what limb... Obviously the right arm, that he uses for the sword...
If he wanna use the sword with left, how much penalty has he?
Sorry for my very bad english...

Offline VladD

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Re: Combat with a broken arm
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2013, 07:46:09 AM »
Its a bit of a downer, but he'd have no skill, (-15), just add his category bonus and stats, suffer -20 for off hand and suffer -21 for a broken limb (fracture is a medium injury so it has a minimum of -21 penalty), so he's at -56 - additional wound penalties accrued from hits taken and other wounds + category bonus + stats + professional bonus.

For RMC he'd be at -25-20-20- additional penalties + stats + professional bonus (and maybe + similar skill rank bonus from his right hand if RMC and GM allow that).
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Offline jdale

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Re: Combat with a broken arm
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2013, 10:21:06 AM »
I don't think using a weapon in your left hand is as dissimilar from using a weapon in your right hand as using a different weapon would be. And while separate skills for using a weapon in your right hand vs left hand are not an uncommon house rule (which does help balance two-weapon fighting), I don't think that is supported by the rules as written either. I would use your full skill minus the -20 for off hand.
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Offline markc

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Re: Combat with a broken arm
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2013, 10:38:46 AM »
 The rules sate that you have to be trained in each hand to use the weapon in each hand, but there are House rules out there that do it differently.
 So officially VladD is correct but I have seen people often use jdale's way also.


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Offline yammahoper

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Re: Combat with a broken arm
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2013, 11:15:23 AM »
I would use simular weapon skill (1/2 skill ranks) and -20 for off hand.

So, a level 9 warrior probably has 20 ranks in Cat and Skill, providing a cat bonus of say 65, while the skill bonus is 50.  Half the ranks reduces skill bonus to 30, so the fighter has an OB of 75 when imcluding the -20 OB penalty for off hand.

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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Combat with a broken arm
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2013, 12:42:14 PM »
This is where I think rules for PC morale come in; unless absolutely necessary, a combatant with their weapon arm broken would either flee or surrender. But, as a PC, where the person controlling the character doesn't actually face the pain and fear of the situation, they have a 100% morale rate.

So, other than off-hand penalties and injury penalties (both mentioned above) I would probably give them a morale penalty to all actions that are to keep that character in the fight, as opposed to fleeing or surrendering. Depending upon the situation, this penalty could be from -20 to -50. (Sure, I could give them a Self-Discipline RR* with the "level" of the fear being dictated by the situation.)


*I would use RR over a skill check because I believe their experiences with dangerous situations is the primary factor in how they respond to such. New guys in combat freeze more overall than "salty-dogs", as old-timers were called in the Marine Corps.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Combat with a broken arm
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2013, 01:03:47 PM »
Game rules: Basically, no skill in that specific weapon imo and, really, a -15 penalty - although I might do away with that since they actually do know the weapon - just in the other hand.  Now if they had ambidexterity it would only be a -20 penalty off their full normal OB.  However if you are using RMSS/FRP you have category ranks.  Which after my next bit will show you how they make sense for weapons in a way.

Real life: I've done this as we practiced the "Princess Bride" fight at the top of the cliff for about a week each year before a local ren faire we would perform it at a couple times a day (for three days).  If you do not practice it (which means ranks in the skill) , initially, I'd say it's about a 50% at best deal (think about how in RMSS/FRP you have category/stats/prof bonus, etc).  You know what to do, you just aren't used to doing it with that arm.  After practicing for about four days (2-3 hours a day) you get decent at it, maybe up to around 75% I'd guess, after a week maybe 90%... but keep in mind this is a choreographed fight.

Basically I think the skill setup in RMSS/FRP does a decent job of simulating this.  Develop one rank in that arm and you jump from a specific skill of -15 with that weapon to +3.  So, let's say it's a Fighter (Profession bonus of +20OB) with, we'll say 10 ranks in category (+20) and an average stat bonus of +6.  That's +58OB without outside factors from category alone.  Now, he'll lose 15 points due to no skill, so you have 43OB.  Buy one rank in your off-hand and you have +61OB.  But like I said above, I'd probably do away with the -15 as a house rule (so long as they are 'highly' trained in that weapon in the other hand).  The reason for this is it's not like they know nothing about using that weapon, they are just using it with the other hand.
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Offline VladD

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Re: Combat with a broken arm
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2013, 02:27:14 PM »
My take on it is that all the above ruminitions and amendments are already contained in the category - skill system. The -15 for having no skill specifically in is there to simulate being trained, but not in that way. The category bonus and the stats will make the skill high enough, but I specifically want my PCs (ow and NPC's) to suffer from such a wound. Amending the penalties with RRs and similar skill rules and whatnot is making fighting with a broken arm look like a breeze. I do think the additional -20 - -50 for morale is a little harsh, but if the players don't moan too hard it is fine (and probably this is also reciprocated in enemy NPCs with debilitating wounds)
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Combat with a broken arm
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2013, 03:05:18 PM »
I would assume there was a penalty on the crit also, which should apply to all attacks/maneuvers, so there was likely a penalty to using the off-hand due to that in addition.
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Offline MariusH

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Re: Combat with a broken arm
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2013, 04:11:48 AM »
I think using the off hand incurs a -20 penalty. Check the 2-weapon combo skill description, which clearly implies this: "Switching either weapon to the other hand incurs the normal -20 penalty for use with the off-hand".
Also, "ambidextrous" would mean no penalty at all for using the off hand, as written in the description for this. At least, that's how I read the rules.
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Offline jdale

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Re: Combat with a broken arm
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2013, 10:28:00 AM »
I think using the off hand incurs a -20 penalty. Check the 2-weapon combo skill description, which clearly implies this: "Switching either weapon to the other hand incurs the normal -20 penalty for use with the off-hand".
Also, "ambidextrous" would mean no penalty at all for using the off hand, as written in the description for this. At least, that's how I read the rules.

That is how I read it as well. I can find nothing in the rules that supports requiring separate skills for the same weapon right-handed and left-handed. Can anyone else? (I can see some reasons why it might be house-ruled that way, which is fine, I just don't think it's in the RAW.)
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Combat with a broken arm
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2013, 11:40:37 AM »
Section 23.4 in RMSS. Not sure if they changed it in RMFRP (never bothered with it since it's mostly a re-organization of RMSS).
Quote
One-Handed Weapons — A combatant armed with a single one-handed weapon may attack once per round and may parry normally. When a combatant develops skill with a weapon, he must develop the skill with his dominant hand (usually his right hand) and skill with the non-dominant hand separately. A weapon used in the non-dominant hand automatically gets a -20 modification to its OB.

So it's actually worse than I thought.  Not only do you have to develop separately, but you get another -20 because it's your non-dominant hand.  We don't apply that penalty if you've developed the skill in that hand and it's the only weapon you're using (i.e. you aren't using a weapon in your dominant hand).  I'd still skip the -15 for not having the skill at all though.

TWC appears to imply you do not have to do this, which we must have never caught (we make you develop the weapon skill in both hands PLUS the TWC skill as it's a fairly powerful ability in RM).

So... it looks like, per the rules, if you use your off hand to use a single weapon you must develop that skill separately (or suffer a -15 from the specific skill, but still have your category skill) and get a -20 even if you are not using a second weapon.  TWC seems to imply you do not need to develop the weapon skill in your off hand, but instead just suffer the -20 off hand penalty (which can be overcome with Ambidexterity).
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Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Combat with a broken arm
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2013, 02:04:53 PM »
So it's actually worse than I thought.  Not only do you have to develop separately, but you get another -20 because it's your non-dominant hand.
Exactly
Quote
TWC appears to imply you do not have to do this, which we must have never caught (we make you develop the weapon skill in both hands PLUS the TWC skill as it's a fairly powerful ability in RM).
That's not correct. See the RM Rulings Page: "Two Weapon Combat must be developed for each combination, including (unless you are ambidextrous) the same two weapons in different hands."

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Combat with a broken arm
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2013, 02:23:32 PM »
Quote
TWC appears to imply you do not have to do this, which we must have never caught (we make you develop the weapon skill in both hands PLUS the TWC skill as it's a fairly powerful ability in RM).
That's not correct. See the RM Rulings Page: "Two Weapon Combat must be developed for each combination, including (unless you are ambidextrous) the same two weapons in different hands."

Ah, never pay much attention to 'official ruling' threads here since we just house rule stuff that comes up.  So we've actually been doing it right all along.  :)
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