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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Harp Fantasy Core Book printed version errata
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2013, 01:33:36 PM »
This is Not really an Errata but just something I notice in the Hard cover PoD.

All of the examples in the italicized text seem really faintly printed.  sometimes making you have to peer a bit closer to the page to read them.
This is consistent throughout the book so Im guessing it was intentional but it would be nice if it could be just a few shades darker
Y'now? When you posted this, I was sure I had already mentioned it, but I looked up thread and..... nope. Well, anyway, I think so too.
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Scratch that. Power attracts the corruptible.

Rules should not replace the brain and thinking.

Offline dagorhir

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Re: Harp Fantasy Core Book printed version errata
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2013, 01:39:00 PM »
Dagorhir - we have some of the table typo's collected, but would be interested in seeing  those you believe are inaccurate also. Ideally we can explain the perceived inconsistencies, but if not we can update the files for re-download and provide an errata version of the table.
This is what I found so far:
Ant, Giant DB – +18 Stats; +20 Instinctive Defense; +60 Tough Hide(Greater) Total: 98 Table 13.4 DB=18
Battle Demon DB – +16 Stats; +20 Tough Hide; +60 Armor (Plate); +40 Shield; Total: 136 Table 13.4 DB=138
Centaur DB – +4 Stats; +30 Rigid Leather; +30 Full Shield Total: 64 Table 13.4 DB=75
Gargoyle DB – +8 Stats; +5 Dense Musculature; +60 Tough Hide Total: 73 Table 13.4 DB=69
Goblin DB – +4 Stats; +6 Agile Defense; +20 Soft Leather; +15 Buckler Total: 45 Table 13.4 DB=49
Hippogriff DB – +24 Stats; +0 Agile Defense; +20 Instinctive Defense; +20 Tough Hide (minor) Total: 64 Table 13.4 DB=68
Hobgoblin DB – +6 Stats; +30 Rigid Leather; +20 Target Shield Total: 56 Table 13.4 DB=64
Kobold DB – +6 Stats; +6 Agile Defense; +20 Soft Leather; +15 Buckler Total: 47 Table 13.4 DB=51
Lizardmen DB – +0 Stats; +20 Tough Hide; +20 Target Shield Total: 40 Table 13.4 DB=46
Orc DB – +4 Stats; +5 Dense Musculature; +30 Rigid Leather; +30 Full Shield Total: 69 Table 13.4 DB=72
Spider Giant: +18 Stats; +6 Agile Defense; +20 Instinctive Defense; +20 Tough Hide (Minor) Total: 64 Table 13.4 DB=76
Spider Greater: +16 Stats; +6 Agile Defense; +20 Instinctive Defense; +20 Tough Hide (Minor) Total: 62 Table 13.4 DB=74
Spider Lesser: +16 Stats; +4 Agile Defense; +20 Instinctive Defense; +10 Tough Hide (Lesser) Total: 50 Table 13.4 DB=58
Wolf DB – +12 Stats; +20 Instinctive Defense; +20 Tough Hide(minor)Total: 50 Table 13.4 DB=60

Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Harp Fantasy Core Book printed version errata
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2013, 02:06:44 PM »
All the data is in the table 13.5 (pag. 169). Battle Demon (ST+3), Goblin (ST+3); Cat, Large (ST+2), Sabertooth Tiger (ST+4); Spider Giant (ST-1), Spider Greater (ST+10), Spider Lesser (ST+1)??? What does it means???

It means that you have an old version of the book.  Your PDF needs to be updated.  If you purchased it from rpgnow or drivethrurpg you should be able to download an updated copy.  Note that there are still some typo's that we're getting straightened out but the concept and layout is much better in the newer release.

Why the chart express values for medium creature if many of them are not??? I guess it's important to give clear information. In fact even if i give a final +4 ST final bonus (-1 Stats, +5 size bonus) and considering the portage skill (x3 weight allowed) the sum is: 34x3=102 lbs, 46 kg!!! Only 46 kg before having -10 to Qu and Ag, and the speed limited to Fast sprint??? It's a joke??? And in fact, if i look in the chart 8.3 (pag. 65) i find the column capacity and the pony has maximum capacity of 300 lbs, 181 kg. The Pony BMR in Table 8.3 (pag.65) is 14, to a maximum of 4.5 mph (7,2 km/h), in the table 13.6 (pag. 170) has BMR 28. It's not clear and even real!!! A Bosnian Pony is able to transport 100 kg (220lbs) for 16km, in only 75 minutes, that means at 12.8 km/h, otherwise 21 feet/round. [\quote]

The encumbrance table is designed for humanoid NPC characters, not for animals.
The carrying capacity is listed for horses on table 8.3. 
A mature pony can carry 300 lbs with no penalty a rate of 4.5 mph.  The pony can increase up to dash speed (x5 speed) for a short time. If they carry over 300 lbs. there are penalties for encumbrance.

Not using the Horse Strenght to the combat would be easy: the difference between a war horse and a normal horse is the training. A normal horse would rather combat and even if he does, he's not trained (Combat skill) and would have a low bonus. The warhorse is trained to combat and answers also to specific command to perform special action (this, in the reality, not in the game). So can have a better bonus. Easy! But if i make calculation, i loose myself cause the results doesn't corresponds with ones expressed in the various chart.

Feel free to house rule it as you see fit. 

Do i have to send you my PDF version???
Ps:Sorry for my bad english!!! :)
[\quote]

I have no problem with bad English, but you may want to review your phrasing.  Calling things ridiculous, asking if things are a joke, and calling them nonsense are not very positive ways of communicating.  I've got no problem explaining things, or even acknowledging errors in the product.  Thanks! :)
Email -    Thom@ironcrown.com

Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Harp Fantasy Core Book printed version errata
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2013, 02:29:02 PM »
Armor maneuver penalties

Dagorhir - we have some of the table typo's collected, but would be interested in seeing  those you believe are inaccurate also. Ideally we can explain the perceived inconsistencies, but if not we can update the files for re-download and provide an errata version of the table.
This is what I found so far:
Ant, Giant DB – +18 Stats; +20 Instinctive Defense; +60 Tough Hide(Greater) Total: 98 Table 13.4 DB=18
Battle Demon DB – +16 Stats; +20 Tough Hide; +60 Armor (Plate); +40 Shield; Total: 136 Table 13.4 DB=138
Centaur DB – +4 Stats; +30 Rigid Leather; +30 Full Shield Total: 64 Table 13.4 DB=75
Gargoyle DB – +8 Stats; +5 Dense Musculature; +60 Tough Hide Total: 73 Table 13.4 DB=69
Goblin DB – +4 Stats; +6 Agile Defense; +20 Soft Leather; +15 Buckler Total: 45 Table 13.4 DB=49
Hippogriff DB – +24 Stats; +0 Agile Defense; +20 Instinctive Defense; +20 Tough Hide (minor) Total: 64 Table 13.4 DB=68
Hobgoblin DB – +6 Stats; +30 Rigid Leather; +20 Target Shield Total: 56 Table 13.4 DB=64
Kobold DB – +6 Stats; +6 Agile Defense; +20 Soft Leather; +15 Buckler Total: 47 Table 13.4 DB=51
Lizardmen DB – +0 Stats; +20 Tough Hide; +20 Target Shield Total: 40 Table 13.4 DB=46
Orc DB – +4 Stats; +5 Dense Musculature; +30 Rigid Leather; +30 Full Shield Total: 69 Table 13.4 DB=72
Spider Giant: +18 Stats; +6 Agile Defense; +20 Instinctive Defense; +20 Tough Hide (Minor) Total: 64 Table 13.4 DB=76
Spider Greater: +16 Stats; +6 Agile Defense; +20 Instinctive Defense; +20 Tough Hide (Minor) Total: 62 Table 13.4 DB=74
Spider Lesser: +16 Stats; +4 Agile Defense; +20 Instinctive Defense; +10 Tough Hide (Lesser) Total: 50 Table 13.4 DB=58
Wolf DB – +12 Stats; +20 Instinctive Defense; +20 Tough Hide(minor)Total: 50 Table 13.4 DB=60

Ant, Giant DB should be 98 (Typo in table)
Battle Demon DB my table 13.4 shows 136 (Please make sure you have the most recent version of the core pdf)
Gargoyle DB should be 73 (error was in my data file - it showed 69 as a carryover from Centaur)
Hippogriff Agile Defense is +4 and that brings it up from +64 to +68
Spider Giant: Agile Defense should read +18 and total is +76
Spider Greater: Again Agile Defense should read +18 and total is +74
Spider Lesser: Agile Defense should be +12 and total is +58
Wolf DB Stats should show +20 and total is +60

Need to dig out some files for humanoids. Will advise later tonight (sorry for the delay)
Email -    Thom@ironcrown.com

Offline dagorhir

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Re: Harp Fantasy Core Book printed version errata
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2013, 03:39:10 PM »
The current version of Harp fantasy that I have dates back to April 2013. Was it updated since?

Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Harp Fantasy Core Book printed version errata
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2013, 05:20:28 PM »
Yes. New release was as of May 9, 2013
Email -    Thom@ironcrown.com

Offline frenzyofmadness

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Re: Harp Fantasy Core Book printed version errata
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2013, 06:13:29 PM »
Hi,
me back once more!  ;)
I didn't mean to offend anyone. But the feeling i've got, reading this revised version (december 2012), is that the work is a little bit imprecise, equivocal. If i say that there are some non-sense feature is only to highlight that the version i read is made without a respect for the previous version and the standard knowledge of the fantasy that a veteran player and GM, as me, has (30 years of RPGing)   :o
Simply i don't understand these modifies and i don't find them correct. But not for this, anyone can feel hurt, it's not what i meant.  My argumentation is different: i found a lot of errors and it is a fact. Now you tell me that my new version is an old version, at least the first of three. For me, used to normal editorial books, three versions in less than 7 months it's a little bit strange.  :o
Moreover, at the beginning, i wanted to buy the paper version, and if I did it so, i would have bought a wrong one.  ???
But it's not the problem. As you adviced me i already make some modifications to the rulebook to better adapt it to our game. I just have to keep on.  8)
Thank you for everything and sorry again for the misunderstanding.

   

Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Harp Fantasy Core Book printed version errata
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2013, 08:52:27 PM »
Actually, the current rules are based upon the standard construction methods used throughout the book. The previous rules were filled with rounding and made every creature a Fighter.  There were a number of other issues with those creatures. We've now cleaned it up, built everything from ground up and made it consistent throughout.  I am saddened to hear that you don't believe it was done with respect to standard knowledge of the experienced GMs.

As for 3 versions in 7 months... not quite accurate, but I agree with your point.  Believe me, we wish that the last update had not been necessary either.  Unfortunately the layout work needed to be redone and there were issues with a few different sections (including monsters) which needed correction.  We'd rather correct it then simply leave it in place wrong.

For some they may see the changes we made as being inaccurate or inappropriate, but I would ask that before they make that judgement, ask us why the change was made.  We did not make these changes without reason.  I hope you'll give us that chance in the future and you'll realize that we put a lot of thought and effort into this.
Email -    Thom@ironcrown.com

Offline WoeRie

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Re: Harp Fantasy Core Book printed version errata
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2013, 12:27:40 AM »
Yes. New release was as of May 9, 2013

That's strange. I just double-checked on RPGNow and the latest version I could get is from April 2013  :'(
Have you forgotten to upload the new version or is it a special edition?

Offline dagorhir

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Re: Harp Fantasy Core Book printed version errata
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2013, 06:09:43 AM »
Actually, the current rules are based upon the standard construction methods used throughout the book. The previous rules were filled with rounding and made every creature a Fighter.  There were a number of other issues with those creatures. We've now cleaned it up, built everything from ground up and made it consistent throughout.  I am saddened to hear that you don't believe it was done with respect to standard knowledge of the experienced GMs.

As for 3 versions in 7 months... not quite accurate, but I agree with your point.  Believe me, we wish that the last update had not been necessary either.  Unfortunately the layout work needed to be redone and there were issues with a few different sections (including monsters) which needed correction.  We'd rather correct it then simply leave it in place wrong.

For some they may see the changes we made as being inaccurate or inappropriate, but I would ask that before they make that judgement, ask us why the change was made.  We did not make these changes without reason.  I hope you'll give us that chance in the future and you'll realize that we put a lot of thought and effort into this.

I downloaded the latest version from RPGDrivethru and saw the corrections. Will those standard construction methods be available in the future? I have some custom creatures that need creating. ;)

Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Harp Fantasy Core Book printed version errata
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2013, 06:12:17 AM »
Thank you. May 9th was the launch of the print copy. My error.
April 30, 2013 is the last revision date.

Easy way to confirm you have the most up to date copy...
Go to Table 13.5 (page 168 on the pdf) and Cat, Large Strength bonus is +6.

Email -    Thom@ironcrown.com

Offline dagorhir

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Re: Harp Fantasy Core Book printed version errata
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2013, 06:32:58 AM »
Thank you. May 9th was the launch of the print copy. My error.
April 30, 2013 is the last revision date.

Easy way to confirm you have the most up to date copy...
Go to Table 13.5 (page 168 on the pdf) and Cat, Large Strength bonus is +6.

I currently have 3 different versions of the core PDF.

One dated 2012/08/21
One dated 2013/04/30, which matches the Printed version
And the one a downloaded yesterday, which has the correction mentioned above.

Offline frenzyofmadness

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Re: Harp Fantasy Core Book printed version errata
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2013, 07:28:08 AM »

Actually, the current rules are based upon the standard construction methods used throughout the book.
The previous rules were filled with rounding and made every creature a Fighter.
Yes, the structure is the same, but i don't agree your assertion.  :P Cause the problem for us was only in few things, that we solved making some few changes. The version we have it's full of mistakes, and it's true.  :-X I'm going to download the new-new version to see the difference, but actually we guess we use the old Bestiary until we make a new-one.

There were a number of other issues with those creatures. We've now cleaned it up, built everything from ground up and made it consistent throughout.  I am saddened to hear that you don't believe it was done with respect to standard knowledge of the experienced GMs.

As always, I don't mean to upset anyone. But I can really assert a big knowledge and experience in RPG, of every kind. And sometimes there are things that leave the taste of vagueness. Even cause I also played MERP and Rolemaster. MERP was too simplistic and Rolemaster with too many new rules and option. But in most cases they were both balanced. In HARP, we felt to have lost something. And these new version, with the problems it had with the corrections, it give us a unpleasant feeling. I know that it's always annoying when someone criticize the own work, but it's even true that you must listen to the different opinions too.
  ;)


As for 3 versions in 7 months... not quite accurate, but I agree with your point.  Believe me, we wish that the last update had not been necessary either.  Unfortunately the layout work needed to be redone and there were issues with a few different sections (including monsters) which needed correction.  We'd rather correct it then simply leave it in place wrong.
So you can see how we feel with it. If I didn't come in the forum to tell you my osservations about the Core Book, I would have not know that ICE made two new editions. Can you imagine?  :o

For some they may see the changes we made as being inaccurate or inappropriate, but I would ask that before they make that judgement, ask us why the change was made.  We did not make these changes without reason.  I hope you'll give us that chance in the future and you'll realize that we put a lot of thought and effort into this.
??? You have to forgive me but what you say has no much sense to me. I'm sure there was a logical, rational and intellectual work behind this remastered manual, but this is your point of view. If you look from this part, the thing turn out to be different. :(  So I don't understand why i have to ask you why you did what you did :-\ There's surely a reason, but as I always say: In the life, as in soccer, score matters. If you played well, but you've lost, you've lost :D  (It's a joke, so don't be upset for that)
For whom, as me and my party, is really attached to ICE product, he could easily say to feels a bit let down for this outcome.  :(


Offline NicholasHMCaldwell

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Re: Harp Fantasy Core Book printed version errata
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2013, 04:02:06 PM »
Thank you. May 9th was the launch of the print copy. My error.
April 30, 2013 is the last revision date.

Easy way to confirm you have the most up to date copy...
Go to Table 13.5 (page 168 on the pdf) and Cat, Large Strength bonus is +6.



I have the proof hardcover here and I can confirm that on page 168 that the Cat, large has a strength bonus of +6. It is the same +6 on the pdf that I've just downloaded.

Best wishes,
Nicholas
Dr Nicholas HM Caldwell
Director, Iron Crown Enterprises Ltd
Publisher of Rolemaster, Spacemaster, Shadow World, Cyradon, HARP & HARP SF, and Cyberspace, with products available from www.rpgnow.com
Author: Mentalism Companion, GURPS Age of Napoleon, Construct Companion, College of Magics, HARP SF/HARP SF Xtreme

Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Harp Fantasy Core Book printed version errata
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2013, 04:59:37 PM »
Yes, the structure is the same, but i don't agree your assertion.  :P Cause the problem for us was only in few things, that we solved making some few changes. The version we have it's full of mistakes, and it's true.  :-X I'm going to download the new-new version to see the difference, but actually we guess we use the old Bestiary until we make a new-one.

Agreed that the version you have does have mistakes, that's why we released a new updated version. If you review the new and still believe it to have issues, please identify them and I'll either explain why we did what we did, or admit that it's an error and mark it for correction.   

As always, I don't mean to upset anyone. But I can really assert a big knowledge and experience in RPG, of every kind. And sometimes there are things that leave the taste of vagueness. Even cause I also played MERP and Rolemaster. MERP was too simplistic and Rolemaster with too many new rules and option. But in most cases they were both balanced. In HARP, we felt to have lost something. And these new version, with the problems it had with the corrections, it give us a unpleasant feeling. I know that it's always annoying when someone criticize the own work, but it's even true that you must listen to the different opinions too.
  ;)

I don't believe we've done anything but listen and respond to any criticism that was made. We will continue to do so, and hope that you'll find that we've enhanced the product with the changes we made.

So you can see how we feel with it. If I didn't come in the forum to tell you my osservations about the Core Book, I would have not know that ICE made two new editions. Can you imagine?  :o

If you have purchased from rpgnow or drivethrurpg and you have notifications turned on, then you will receive notices whenever the product is updated.  Additionally, you can keep advised by reading these forums and subscribing to the mailing list.  Every update has been announced using all of these different methods. There's not much more we can do to ensure you know about updates to the products.

??? You have to forgive me but what you say has no much sense to me. I'm sure there was a logical, rational and intellectual work behind this remastered manual, but this is your point of view. If you look from this part, the thing turn out to be different. :(  So I don't understand why i have to ask you why you did what you did :-\ There's surely a reason, but as I always say: In the life, as in soccer, score matters. If you played well, but you've lost, you've lost :D  (It's a joke, so don't be upset for that)
For whom, as me and my party, is really attached to ICE product, he could easily say to feels a bit let down for this outcome.  :(

On this I can only state that you are entitled to your opinion, but since you do not have the most recent version perhaps your opinion will change.  We like to think that with the enhanced version of HARP we have won, and that we have set the foundation for the future products that are being developed.  Products that maintain consistency and build upon each other and in the end will win over many fans.  Hopefully you will be one in the end.
Email -    Thom@ironcrown.com

Offline dagorhir

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Re: Harp Fantasy Core Book printed version errata
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2013, 07:47:57 PM »
...  We like to think that with the enhanced version of HARP we have won, and that we have set the foundation for the future products that are being developed.  Products that maintain consistency and build upon each other and in the end will win over many fans.  Hopefully you will be one in the end.

I have to agree with this, the enhance version of Harp is quite good, despite the various mistakes that are found in the product. I come from RM and those products always had errors of all sorts in them. Harp fantasy is a great enhancement from the original Harp.

Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Harp Fantasy Core Book printed version errata
« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2013, 08:19:45 PM »
Thanks. We appreciate the support, and we do acknowledge the errors that have been identified. From a layout point of view we've already learned a lot and have made additional improvements (and will continue to do so).  From an error checking, we've expanded our stable of proofreaders, and we are tightening up table data reviews (which can be extremely boring to double check every number but is critical for product quality).

If there are concepts that you don't agree with, or believe we missed the mark on something, please let us know.  We may end up agreeing with you, or we may convince you based upon why we did what we did, or we may simply disagree - and any one of those options is fine.
Email -    Thom@ironcrown.com

Offline jdale

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Re: Harp Fantasy Core Book printed version errata
« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2013, 10:43:27 PM »
Gaming products are classically full of errors. I think the procedure of releasing the PDF early, getting input, and making revisions before releasing the print version is great. Takes full advantage of what is possible today. It does mean there is a flurry of updates, but everything before the print version is no big deal. It's errors that are left in the print version that are annoying (sadly, I don't think you can ever get them all).

Also I totally did the same for my game so it must be genius!  ;)

Offline Glenn_Gould

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Re: Harp Fantasy Core Book printed version errata
« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2013, 10:22:40 AM »
While it's sometimes a little bit inconvenient to reload new versions frequently (and of course a little disappointing if somebody might be stuck with an erroneous printout), I absolutely appreciate corrections going into the real product as early as possible.

For me, it's very nice to have a regularly MAINTAINED product (and very high quality, free of charge support via forum) for a (imho) very, very fair price and I'd always chose the current process over the old Harp with a core-book, some semi-compatible extensions and a bunch of official and unofficial errata and forum posts (of course accumulated over years) to clarify things. So I like the new release(s)!

If there was something left on the wish list, it'd be even more detailed changelogs to make it even easier to identify sections/words/layouts that might have changed.

Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Harp Fantasy Core Book printed version errata
« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2013, 11:43:09 AM »
Quote from: Glenn_Goud
If there was something left on the wish list, it'd be even more detailed changelogs to make it even easier to identify sections/words/layouts that might have changed.
Certainly something we can look at doing better in the future.
Thanks for the feedback.
Email -    Thom@ironcrown.com

 

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