Topic: On Maneuvering in Armor

[arakish]

On Maneuvering in Armor

I felt this warranted its own thread with links back to the relevant posts.

I'm well past relying on the rule set to define characters.  I prefer conception to rules lawyering, and if I have to give out 35 free ranks in skill to meet conception, so be it.

Agreed!

Well, I see there are at least three of us who do this.  I have been known at times to give out some free ranks for skills that would have been developed by the character but were forgotten by the player.  However, I would never give more than three to five ranks for up to about two to four skills.  For example, if a character would have definitely developed Perception but the player forgot, I might give 3 free ranks.

Armor has a set penalty.  Full Plate is -30.  St mod can negate it (thus a +10 St mod means no penalty in any armor for mnv'ing).

St mod offsets Qu penalty.  I do not use a Qu penalty.  Nor a missile penalty.  Armor is not designed to limit attack, mnv'erbility nor defense.  RM has it's short comings.

Just out of curiosity, have you ever worn any of the armors?  I'm just wondering where the above comes from.  intothatdarkness gave the correct answer to the highlighted comment above.

Armor is designed to provide protection. Protection certainly can limit these things. I never had a problem with the armor penalties.

St mod offsets Qu penalty.

In my honest opinion, I feel this is an incorrect assumption.  Strength would NEVER offset Quickness penalties caused by certain armors.  Instead, strength would offset some of the encumberance penalties, but not all.  Some armor types would still interfere with quickness, no matter how much skill you have in Maneuver in Armor.  Just by its very nature, all armors encumber some.  Some armor types would encumber more than others.  But all armors cause some encumberance.  That is what the skill Maneuver in Armor is for, to help offset some of these penalties.  Sometimes all of the penalties, but not always.

I own a chain shirt, not hauberk, but shirt.  And it weighs in at a hefty 11 kilograms (25 pounds), and it DOES slow my overall quickness.  Thus, I would say it gives me a -10 penalty on Quickness, maybe -5 at least.  And a chain hauberk would be worse since it is even heavier.  I know this for certain because I guarantee I could not run a 40m Dash as quickly wearing that chain shirt as I could not wearing the chain shirt.  I know, not the best example, but it does work as an example.  As discussed in other threads, sprinting is a function of strength AND quickness.

Thus, I ask, if armors do not have some quickness penalties that no amount of strength will offset, then explain why a person can run/move quicker when not wearing armor than they could while wearing the armor?

Granted, some armors are light enough that Maneuver in Armor skill can offset Qu penalties to 0.  However, some armors like Full Plate will have enough Qu penalty that no amount of Maneuver in Armor skill or strength will offset those Qu penalties.  At best, you can only hope to minimize the Qu penalty.

Nor a missile penalty.

After trying on another person's full plate armor at the LARP event (below), I found that plate armor does interfere with using a bow.  Thus, the reason you will mostly see plate armored fighters using crossbows.  Thus, I would totally agree with the bow penalties listed in Arms Law.

Further Inquiry and Observations

I was wondering how many persons here have actually participated in LARP events?  SCA events?  How many have actually tried on the different armor types and tried maneuvering in them?

During a recent LARP event back in June here in Albuquerque, I had the opportunity to wear some of the different types of armor in the original categories in Rolemaster: Soft Leather, Rigid Leather, Chain, and Plate.  Here are some of my observations.

Believe it or not, but maneuvering in armor can be broken down into two categories: rigid and soft; not four categories.  Mainly, the only difference between the leather and metal armors is mass (weight).  Metal armors will limit Qu no matter how skillful someone is with Maneuver in Armor.

Rigid/Inflexible Armor would include both the metal plate armor, hardened plate leather armor, and laminated armors.

Soft/Flexible armor would include padded and studded leather, chain, and scale armors.

I realized there is enough of a difference between the rigid and soft types to warrant two different Maneuver in Armor skills: Maneuver in Soft Armors and Maneuver in Rigid Armors.  I found that maneuvering in rigid leather or laminated armors is so much like maneuvering in plate, except for mass (weight) to not warrant separate skills between these types.  Maneuvering in chain is so similar to maneuvering in padded/studded leather, except for mass (weight), to not warrant two separate skills between these.

Basically, I did find that there is enough of a difference between the soft and rigid armors to warrant at least two skills in Maneuver in Armor.  Is there anyone else who has this kind of experience?

To be wholly honest, I have found plate armor to be the worst of all armors.  Due to the heat conductivity of the metal plates, you are literally in an oven, especially on a hot day in full sunlight.  And chain ain't much better.  And you would not believe the number of persons who fell out due to some of the near 100, and 100+, heat.  Even I fell out twice for rest and rehydration.  Now I know why most armies may have fought during the winter months, especially in desert regions.  With winter, the combat will help to keep you warm.  In summer, there is nothing you can do to keep cool except to do nothing and seek shade.

rmfr

[Jacinto Pat]

I would very much like to 2nd Arakish's position here.  I've never worn any sort of armour such is used in SCA or live roleplaying, but having fenced and used some martial arts protection -- the encumberance of even those are considerable.  Heat exhaustion, drag on every motion and reduced flexibility certainly affect "strength" and "quickness".  There are even additional limitations that are not caught by the rules -- limited hearing, reduced perephial vision, less detail -- if we want to be accurate about the affects of a helmet we would need to significantly penalize all perception type roles as well. 

[jdale]

The downside of having multiple armor skills is it is more limiting for characters who want to develop over time. If you ultimately want to wear AT 20, you have to start your career with some kind of rigid armor. You can't start with mail. If you start with mail and later switch to plate, you waste a lot of DPs. I don't like needing to do all your long-term planning at character creation. That said, having just two categories (soft and rigid) is better than three.

I do agree that maneuver penalties make sense. My personal experience is with leather (12-15 oz) reinforced with aircraft aluminum plates (on the inside). So, a bit lighter and more flexible than plate armor but still definitely in the rigid class. And definitely slows you down (not to mention the heat issues, although that depends a lot on climate and weather). But, I do think the penalties are too high for most moving maneuvers -- except perhaps climbing and swimming...

I did find armor interferes with archery. Not all of it, but gauntlets, arm armor, and helm can all get in the way. The arm armor was the least significant of those three. Crossbow is easier though. Crossbow is also better for shooting over the ranks of your allies, and you need less space to use it.

[markc]

Very interesting points and observations. A lot to think about.


 Does anyone have any in site on modern armor? Or would you still break it down into soft and hard?


MDC

[RandalThor]

In the Marine Corps I wore a flak-vest, and I can tell you that even just that inhibited movement and sped up exhaustion rates. Now, with just the vest, you can train enough to where it doesn't inhibit you much, but you will never have 100% range of motion with your arms and your torso will not bend more than a few degrees in angle. All of that adds up to lowered agility and mobility, not just in gross body movement, but in wielding equipment - including weapon-use.

I do not have any info on the more recent forms of body armor being used, but I have heard that it is more effective in protecting the wearer largely be covering more of them. That sounds like it is also more cumbersome.

[yammahoper]

Just out of curiosity, have you ever worn any of the armors?  I'm just wondering where the above comes from.  intothatdarkness gave the correct answer to the highlighted comment above.

No.  Nor have I ever cast a firebolt, but it happens in game all the time.

[VladD]

Further Inquiry and Observations

I was wondering how many persons here have actually participated in LARP events?  SCA events?  How many have actually tried on the different armor types and tried maneuvering in them?

During a recent LARP event back in June here in Albuquerque, I had the opportunity to wear some of the different types of armor in the original categories in Rolemaster: Soft Leather, Rigid Leather, Chain, and Plate.  Here are some of my observations.

Believe it or not, but maneuvering in armor can be broken down into two categories: rigid and soft; not four categories.  Mainly, the only difference between the leather and metal armors is mass (weight).  Metal armors will limit Qu no matter how skillful someone is with Maneuver in Armor.

I have donned a historically accurate mail hauberk (no padding, but it weighted according to owner 30 Kg), while on a renaissance fair. The owner wore his favorite one. He challenged me to a little run. I'm a fairly big guy: 6'5", 240 p, but I was quite surprised at the speed I was making. The one thing he hadn't warned me about was the inertia: so when we ran back, someone wasn't paying attention and strolled in our path. When I tried to deviate from the collision course, it was pretty hard to do and instead of dodging out of the way easily, I kind of just moved out of the way and braked enough to deflect the passerby with my mass, speed and metal skin.

It felt quite comfortable, though and I didn't feel restricted, except for the inertia part. I also think that this is why charging was considered such a good "tactic". Imagine adding a 7-15 pound shield, 2 pound weapon, 5 pound helmet and about 10 pounds of padding and clothes to the 66 pounds of armor and you get almost 100 pounds of added weight that your foe must deflect (ideally) and absorb (bad idea).

I agree on the just a few skills part. Actually I think there is but one skill which should be: maneuvering in weighty, restrictive, body covering gear, while being exhausted from dehydration, heat and fatigue...

(excerpt from Memoires Of An Armchair Warrior  )

[markc]

Charging is good ... strong thick spears or pole arms are better.
MDC

[Thom @ ICE]

Inertia goes both ways.

[VladD]

When set to receive a charge: I'd rather not get carried on them by inertia. But in the time of shield walls, it was a tried and true way of breaking through, until shield walls became too sturdy.

I'd like to hear from non-armchair warriors who wore some real armor.

[yammahoper]

being realistic is not the goal.  an appropriate simulation is.  best not to mix metaphors so to speak.

[providence13]

being realistic is not the goal.  an appropriate simulation is.  best not to mix metaphors so to speak.

I can agree with this opinion. Each GM uses the rules that best suits their game. I don't use rules for low hits or low PP. The lower number of PP is penalty enough for my games. Crit penalties are also enough of a deterrent for wading into combat if it's unnecessary.

I do use armor penalties! Most of the players were GM's before I took over and they never used armor penalties for casting Channeling, for instance ("you loose one the Paladin's best attributes; +20 Transcend Armor"). It took a while for them to get used to using more of the RAW, but I don't use them all.

An approximate simulation and fun trumps real life for us.

[Warl]

Just out of curiosity, have you ever worn any of the armors?  I'm just wondering where the above comes from.  intothatdarkness gave the correct answer to the highlighted comment above.

No.  Nor have I ever cast a fire bolt, but it happens in game all the time.

A Poor argument since we have real world experience with armor and yet the closest we can come to a Fire bolt in reality would be a Flamethrower, which would be a large heavy device compared to just casting a Bolt from your hand. Not to mention a Flame thrower isn't likely to have the range of a Fire bolt.

being realistic is not the goal.  an appropriate simulation is.  best not to mix metaphors so to speak.

I have always found RMs armor skills system to be a Great way (better than any other system) for handing Armor.
Anyone who thinks that Wearing soft leather compared to chain is a similar enough experience, to make them the same skill, has not actually ever worn either of them for extended periods of time.
As for Rigid Leather Armour compared to Plate... the differences are even grater than the former 2.

The reality I find is that players and some Gms like to Buck the system because they Don't want to be limited OR because they forget what a Level 1 Character really is.

your level 1 character isn't a Full Fledged Hero with decades or even Years of experience in their chosen profession.

Your a grunt. a Guy (regardless of age or years spent in the job) with basic Training out of Boot camp.

The Knights who Wore plate had generally been in the career for years and had "Earned" their armor.
I like how it was correctly portrayed in in "Game of Thrones". The Knights with years of experience, that had Earned their Place and armor, wore pate, All the others were wearing either some chain or Rigid leather armor. 

[jdale]

The Knights who Wore plate had generally been in the career for years and had "Earned" their armor.
I like how it was correctly portrayed in in "Game of Thrones". The Knights with years of experience, that had Earned their Place and armor, wore pate, All the others were wearing either some chain or Rigid leather armor. 

Think about how this works in game terms though. You train for years in chain. One day you finally have earned your plate armor. Suddenly you are effectively a cripple on the battlefield because you've never trained in plate armor. And by cripple I mean -80 or worse maneuver penalty. Do you keep wearing chain, even though you've earned plate, for years, while you train up the skill? Or do you imagine that you spend years in which you put on plate armor, train in it, but then aren't allowed to wear it on the battlefield? Just so you will have the skill when you finally get there? In RMSS/RMFRP, plate and chain aren't even in the same category, so you get literally no benefit whatsoever from all your training in chain when you finally switch to plate.

[Warl]

Not necessarily if you use/allow similar skill usage.. Chain might not be a 1/2 fit but a 1/3 similar skill I might allow.

[RandalThor]

Think about how this works in game terms though. You train for years in chain. One day you finally have earned your plate armor. Suddenly you are effectively a cripple on the battlefield because you've never trained in plate armor. And by cripple I mean -80 or worse maneuver penalty. Do you keep wearing chain, even though you've earned plate, for years, while you train up the skill? Or do you imagine that you spend years in which you put on plate armor, train in it, but then aren't allowed to wear it on the battlefield? Just so you will have the skill when you finally get there? In RMSS/RMFRP, plate and chain aren't even in the same category, so you get literally no benefit whatsoever from all your training in chain when you finally switch to plate.

I think HARP does this well by having a single Armor skill and the armors just have ascending negative modifiers the heavier the armor. So, as the character trains in the skill, they can reach points in which they "graduate" to the next armor. Of course, that is only for in-game societal reasons, it is assumed that the character is not just training in a single type of armor as far as the game-rules go.

[yammahoper]

Not necessarily if you use/allow similar skill usage.. Chain might not be a 1/2 fit but a 1/3 similar skill I might allow.

 

rm is far from perfect.  it has huge holes in its rule set.  bleeding rules are out right silly...but they work.  tracking a different set of hits to track blood loss is exactly the sort of additional complication no system needs.

some seem to have been in at least mock combat, so they know extra weight tires a person quicker.  yet rm ext rules are to cumbersome for most to be enjoyable or usable.  extra complexity slows the game to a crawl.  more tables...sigh.

I used an ext point expenditure by AT table per round for some time.  It worked wonderfully, but eventually I got tired of tracking.  I want to make a story and have fun.  When the rules aint fun, forget em.

[Theros]

I did not read the whole thread...as we are speaking from RM, I tell how I use these rules...work well enough.

Lets speak about plates (heavy armor category in RMFRP). One of my players wanted to create a character that wears a plate armor. I told for her that AT20 (full plate) gets pretty heavy negative modifier at start and level 1 warrior is not able to move in it. I said that develop skill for it and when skill goes move from this "starting" AT17 higher. We just replace AT number...and keep same skill. Simple as that. There are 4 types of armor, soft(clothes), hardened leather and thicker animal skins, chain armors and then plates. We develop on skill for each category, that way we do it.

If we would like to see a lot of realism and think every heat aspect and so on...then we would go to fight by ourselves...I don't like the things when RPGs are compared to real world. Of course common sense, but hey...there are demons, gods, magical swords...in low fantasy there are still some magical things and even in historical settings characters are "superhumans". Have fun and lets not think too much realism...keep common sense with you... :-)

[VladD]

Some people like a fun game with less rules. For others a fun game is where weapons and armor have that touch of realism, that is lacking in other games.

If you like a fun game: go play with "studded Leather" or a "Plate Mail". I like it when my players can mismatch greaves and sleeves and it actually has an effect. I like it when armor is not a list in order: that Armor X is worse than armor Y in all cases, but when armor X protects against damage A and B and armor Y better against C. That is why there are attack tables and lots of armor types.

Having senseless rules is a bad idea, but having rules simply to satisfy reality is a good idea. An iron monger cannot hammer out a (good) plowshear: so we need a skill for ironmonger and one for blacksmith instead of a simple Metal Crafting skill. With armor, on the other hand: I think it is not a whole spectrum of skills, but just one. It is the same with laborers: when they can haul 150 pound bags of potatoes, they can also haul 150 pound beams of wood and probably even easier than the bag.

Armor is basically well-distributed weight. The weights of different armors are not so far apart (around the 40-70 pound mark) because people would use the heaviest covering they could carry of the best available material.

The problem is that most fantasy game worlds allow Plate armor to be sold next to Leather armor. This makes the choice not so hard for players. I think the skill has been divided up in more skills to disallow people to switch from their starting armor too easily.

[yammahoper]

RM is NOT realistic.

Armor in RM, particularly in the RMU, is EXACTLY armor Y is better than armor X while Z is better than all others.

Playability is the key.  RM is very playable.  It can support having hundreds of skills, or just 17 or so, as in the original version.  Flexibility is a good thing, and RM has that in spades.