Topic: On Maneuvering in Armor

[jdale]

Armor in RM, particularly in the RMU, is EXACTLY armor Y is better than armor X while Z is better than all others.

There are exceptions, e.g. AT 8 is worse than AT 7 against maces and clubs (and equal against 2-H club and quarterstaff), but better against blades. AT 7 is worse than AT 6 versus most bolts. There are other interesting exceptions, especially on the Ram and Trample tables. (These are all based on RMU tables.)

[arakish]

Anyone who thinks that Wearing soft leather compared to chain is a similar enough experience, to make them the same skill, has not actually ever worn either of them for extended periods of time.
As for Rigid Leather Armour compared to Plate... the differences are even grater than the former 2.

In all honesty, I have to disagree with this.  Did you miss these parts (quoted below)?

During a recent LARP event back in June here in Albuquerque, I had the opportunity to wear some of the different types of armor in the original categories in Rolemaster: Soft Leather, Rigid Leather, Chain, and Plate.

and (emphases mine)

I found that maneuvering in rigid leather or laminated armors is so much like maneuvering in plate, except for mass (weight) to not warrant separate skills between these types.  Maneuvering in chain is so similar to maneuvering in padded/studded leather, except for mass (weight), to not warrant two separate skills between these.

I do have experience in both soft leather and chain.  I own a chain shirt and a soft leather shirt.  In actuality, I purchased the chain shirt about 30 years ago.  In the LARP events, I tend to wear the chain shirt since it does protect somewhat better than the leather shirt.  Sometimes, I even wear the chain shirt over the leather shirt over the padding, but only in cold winter days.

I was covering only the maneuvering in these armors in combat situations.  Although I probably should have, I did not cover the mass differences except to say "except for mass."  I also did mention that all armors cause some form of encumberance.

I will be the first to admit that an armor's mass has an effect on Maneuver in Armor skill, but usually only when dealing with exhaustion (Fatigue) and quickness of movement (Qu Penalties).  Basically, the only difference between a soft leather shirt and the chain shirt I own is the mass.  The chain shirt will definitely wear me down (exhaust) me faster than the leather shirt.  However, MANEUVERING is so similar in either that I feel that both would fall into a single category of Maneuver in Soft/Flexible Armor.

I do not have as much experience with rigid leather, laminated, and plate armors,  However, from the little bit I was able to learn in the LARP event mentioned in my initial post, it seemed to me that the only major difference between the rigid leather, laminate, and plate is the mass.  Of those three, the laminate seemed to be the lightest in respect to mass.  Of course, due to its density, plate armor is the heaviest.  What was the weight of some those full plate armors in history?  About 50 to 70 kilograms?  Maybe more?  The guy's full plate I tried probably weighed at least 80 to 90 pounds.  Oof.

However, as VladD pointed out...

Armor is basically well-distributed weight. The weights of different armors are not so far apart (around the 40-70 pound mark)...

And because the weight is distributed, it is not as difficult as carrying a sack of taters of the same mass.  But it still does encumber and slows a person down, thus the Qu Penalties.

As said, from real life experience, there is not that much difference between the armors except for the differences between soft/flexible armors and rigid/inflexible armors.  The only other major difference is the mass.  Additionally, plate metal armor did seem to be slightly less flexible than the other rigid types, but not so much so as to put plate into a separate skill.

Thus, I still say, even with the new RMU system, there should be two Maneuver in Armor skills:
Maneuver in Soft/Flexible Armors
Maneuver in Rigid/Inflexible Armors

On a further note, I am definitely living proof that chain armor does nothing to stop the Krush criticals.  Although the weapons used in these LARP events are not as true as real weapons, they still do have some reality.  At a LARP event this past weekend, I took a hellacious blow to my left shoulder from a hammer club.  Now my left shoulder is immobilized due to the quite unintentional injury.  I just moved wrong as he swung and missed his intended target, and I later "died" due to this "real life" injury.  In our LARP events here, we do not use the plastic or "Nerf"y type weapons.  We use real wooden weapons, some weighted with metal, that can still injure.  We do NOT LARP with the intention to cause injury, but by its very nature, large scale combat reinactments can cause injuries.

your level 1 character isn't a Full Fledged Hero with decades or even Years of experience in their chosen profession.

Think about how this works in game terms though. You train for years in chain. One day you finally have earned your plate armor. Suddenly you are effectively a cripple on the battlefield because you've never trained in plate armor. And by cripple I mean -80 or worse maneuver penalty. Do you keep wearing chain, even though you've earned plate, for years, while you train up the skill? Or do you imagine that you spend years in which you put on plate armor, train in it, but then aren't allowed to wear it on the battlefield? Just so you will have the skill when you finally get there? In RMSS/RMFRP, plate and chain aren't even in the same category, so you get literally no benefit whatsoever from all your training in chain when you finally switch to plate.

Thus, a good reason to have just the two skills.  As one goes up through the army or as an adventurer, you may start with soft leather, learning Maneuver in Soft/Flexible Armor.  Eventually, you may warrant or find/buy the more costly rigid leather and begin learning to Maneuver in Rigid/Inflexible Armor.  Later on, you move up to chain and have to learn more Maneuver in Soft/Flexible Armor mainly due to the mass difference.  And finally, you earn that Knighthood and get granted plate armor.  Since you already have some Maneuver in Rigid/Inflexible Armor, you won't be the "cripple" and just have to learn more Maneuver in Rigid/Inflexible Armor.  What think?

The problem is that most fantasy game worlds allow Plate armor to be sold next to Leather armor. This makes the choice not so hard for players. I think the skill has been divided up in more skills to disallow people to switch from their starting armor too easily.

Which is something I have never done.  I rarely have Plate Armor for sale in the shops.  Mostly there may be soft leather, rigid leather, studded leather, ring mail leather, and maybe scale.  Almost never would one find chain or plate in the shops, except for high-end (read as wealthy/noble) shops where regular player characters would never be allowed (unless they are renowned).

Some people like a fun game with less rules. For others a fun game is where weapons and armor have that touch of realism, that is lacking in other games.

Niiice.  How true.

An approximate simulation and fun trumps real life for us.

Also very true.  Although I try for realistic believability, I also trim rules to keep it fun, and to not bog the game down with constant table look-ups.

rmfr

[Warl]

there is a Big difference between Soft leathers and Chain. Soft leather can and IS generally worn on it's own, just as Clothing, with perhaps undergarments beneath.

Chain on the other hand is Generally worn with a padded gambeson beneath, which is much more restrictive than just soft leather.

You aren't the only one with experience or who owns these things. We will just have to disagree on this.

[VladD]

As I asked before Warl, and since I don't have hands on experience, but would dearly love to learn more, could you describe how you think Soft leather and Maille is different? How does it feel different, how did you determine they are different? Any anecdotes, first hand accounts, etc?

(and I am sincerely interested here)

[Warl]

The Light Leather armors i have worn, in the SCA, were of two types, One was a vest. no arms, just covering the tops of the shoulders and down to the waist, and then either some Thick but supple leather Breeches or a Skirt of leather tassets or flaps.

the other type was a Jacket that fit nearly like a Leather Biker or bomber jacket save that it was laced up in the back rather than the front. it was supple leather a bit thicker than a leather jacket but moved fairly freely much as any jacket would. the lower half was Covered in either option mentioned above.

I wore my normal clothes under this and though a bit hot was able to move with little to no restriction. Just felt like wearing an extra layer of heavier clothing.

Chain mail, on the other hand, was quite a different experience. I was wearing a Long Padded gambesson, or Haqueton under garment, over which was a hauberk that hung nearly to my knees. I also Wore a a set of Mail Chausses over my legs underneath which I wore a Quited set of thin padded Breeches. the Chausses didn't come up to more than my thighs, thank goodness... the bunching in that area when moving would have been bad otherwise, the Hauberk made it unnecessary to go any higher, but still between the weight on my legs and then Bunching of the mail in the Knee joint, Plus trying to move with what basically amounts to a Weight skirt pushing against you thighs as you walk and move, it was a work out jsut walking around. Alot hotter in there than the soft leather, the Hauberk and quilted gambesson was thick in my armpits. it took some getting used to "holding" my arms out slightly even when just walking around so that the chain didn't drag and bunch to much under the armpits and catch at the upper arms.
Where the other felt like wearing Winter Clothing, This felt like wearing a heavy lead weight across my shoulders and arms. Took alot longer to get used to that, and a bit of Time learning how to Move in it with out fouling up your movements in the chain.

I Also had experience with a  cuir bouilli breastplate, Vambraces and leg greaves. Even Just wearing the breast plate with no Sleeves, the stiffness of the armor, not wanting to move with my Torso or Shoulders, was an experience in itself. after two days of training in that I had blisters around my Upperchest and shoulders where they would Rub against the Sleeveless arms edges, even with the Padded shirt I had underneath it. The arm and leg greaves, along with the vambrace, wasn't much of a problem for the most part. Not to different than wearing some of the Goalie gear for Hockey, Though having something stiff strapped to your legs and arms was odd, and sometimes they lower and upper guards would catch as you bent your knees. 

I never got into Plate. But of the three, If I was doing sword sparring, I would much rather have the  cuir bouilli over the Chain. There is a reason you wear thick padding under Mail, and it isn't just to keep the Links from pinching your skin or pulling your hair out. Chain can keep you from getting Cut, But on it's own, It isn't going to absorb a whole lot of the Force of a blow without some extra help. You get hit wearing Chain over a Light shirt, with a Broadsword or a Mace, and you may not have your Belly opened up, but you are likely to Have some bones or ribs Cracked or your spleen burst. The padding is there to make up for what the Chain can't do because of it's Nature to move cloth like.

[VladD]

I fnd it interesting that you thought that the cuir bouille armor was even more restrictive than the maille. Could you give an indication of the weight of the suits you wore, or perhaps even weigh the individual pieces?

I'm not sure how SCA armor stacks up against real armor, but I assume they got lot of padding to absorb the rattan impacts. I also assume the cuir bouille is not multi-layered and not cut to exactly your size.

I feel the problem with the maille, as opposed to the pliable leather, was not due to any design flaws, but more likely stems from weight. If the leather pieces were made as heavy as the maille, I think that you'll experience the same decrease in  maneuverability. Main difference you mentioned is the gambeson/ haketon that is required for wearing maille. Then there's the fact that leather can support a bit of its own weight, while maille just hangs and is often supported by another belt around the waist.

The chausses: would they be tied around your leg, or suspended from a waistbelt or anything? The models I saw were much like pants and would hang from the waist and be supported by several ties around the upperleg, knee and lower leg.

Could you give me an indication on the length of the maille hauberk sleeves? As the chausses would normally be worn with a haubergeon, as a hauberk would certainly fall over the knees.

[jdale]

Leg armor is a pain. Here's a picture of my rig: http://www.madreporite.com/rpg/armor.jpg  Again, these are leather with aluminum plate reinforcement underneath (and steel on the shoulders, knees, and elbows). The leg armor is supported by a weight belt (not visible under the torso armor), and also strapped to the legs. The problem is that your legs are changing shape when you move, so the straps constantly try to slide down when your leg is in one position, and then bind when your legs move the other way. I replaced some of the leather straps with wide elastic that is much better, but totally not period... (doesn't really show, it's just a black strap). The torso armor really does not get in the way much, arms not bad either (although as you can see the protection is mostly on the outer side of the arm, none on the inside of the elbow joint), but the legs are annoying. Helm is too. If my life was at risk I'd put the tassets back on, to cover the area between the torso and legs, and add shin and foot armor, all of which would make the legs worse. It's possible this is less of an issue when the leg armor can rest on your foot and gain additional support that way...? Not sure.

[Warl]

I fnd it interesting that you thought that the cuir bouille armor was even more restrictive than the maille.

Perhaps i wasn't clear, I Didn't find the Cuir Bouille More restrictive over all... Just getting used to having a Stiff shell on my chest (and no It wasn't made specifically for me, but was a fairly close fit) was an experience. Once I had gotten used to the Breast Plate and greaves, I preferred that armor Over the Chain.

I found the Chain more restrictive due to the Bunching at the joints and the need to stand/hold my body out differently than one normally does. Also the weight against my upper legs from the skirt of the Hauberk as I walked and moved.
The Chausses were a Set of Leggings, more long socks than pants, that came up a little higher than mid thigh and, yes, had straps that clasped to a belt. The Hauberk sleeve came nearly to my wrists and a Pair of chain Gloves were provided, separate from the shirt, that had a 3-4 inch "sleeve" to overlap the sleeve of the hauberk. The Hauberk came down nearly to my knees, below Mid thigh but not over the knees.

As for weights, it has been years, I will be guesstimating here.

Soft armour jacket was around 3-4lbs and the breeches likely the same or a little less.
 The Cuir Bouille Breastplate (front and back no pauldrons) probably weighed around 3-4 lbs 5 at the most. The Skirting, with the Layers of hanging flaps, I would guess weighed in a little less than the Breast plate, perhaps 3lbs but no more than 4. The greaves and vambraces were stiff but light, I would guess each piece weighing no more than a pound, but likely around half a pound each.
A Note on the Leather skirting, I preferred that More than the Chain Hauberk, part of why I prefer this armor over the chain, because the Flaps gave around my thighs as i moved much more easily whereas the Chain just pushed against my thighs as I moved. I felt more freedom of movement in the Hard leather Armor.

now the Chain on the other hand weighed in around 35 to 40 lbs, all inclusive.

Note, I am not a Big Guy, I stand 5'6, so if you find my weights a bit on the light side, this is the reason. Most of the guys I worked with stood in the 6 Foot range.
Other than the Leather Jack and skirt, I didn't own any of the other armor, It was Taken from what was considered the "young adult" Armory.

[Warl]

Again, these are leather with aluminum plate reinforcement underneath (and steel on the shoulders, knees, and elbows). The leg armor is supported by a weight belt (not visible under the torso armor), and also strapped to the legs. The problem is that your legs are changing shape when you move, so the straps constantly try to slide down when your leg is in one position, and then bind when your legs move the other way. I replaced some of the leather straps with wide elastic that is much better, but totally not period... (doesn't really show, it's just a black strap). The torso armor really does not get in the way much, arms not bad either (although as you can see the protection is mostly on the outer side of the arm, none on the inside of the elbow joint), but the legs are annoying. Helm is too. If my life was at risk I'd put the tassets back on, to cover the area between the torso and legs, and add shin and foot armor, all of which would make the legs worse. It's possible this is less of an issue when the leg armor can rest on your foot and gain additional support that way...? Not sure.

The strapping issue is very much true, But I found it less of a Problem than the Chainmail bunching in my joints, Especially under the arms.

The breast plate I had was Different from yours, It was a Molded Boiled Leather. Felt Like strapping a Turtle Shell to your chest. The Back Pieces were thicker but more supple leather. Skirt I had wasn't Boiled either but more Thick Cow hide strips. 14-15 ounce thickness, similar to the Back pieces of the breastplate.

[jdale]

I will also note, with rigid torso armor, you want it as tight as possible. If it's tight against your body, it will move with you. If it's loose it will move around and get in the way more. Also, if it's tight that helps spread the weight out so it's not all on your shoulders.

[VladD]

Would adjusting the padding help in that, JDale? I have heard that rigid armor could be filled up to fit the wearer with using the right padding. Of course it shouldn't be too large, but could you negate several sizes difference?

[jdale]

I have a cooling vest that I sometimes wear underneath the armor. When I wear that I still tighten the straps as much as possible, but that is two notches less on the straps on each side. Effectively increasing the around-the-chest measurement by 2-3". I would say yes, you don't want it hanging loosely but it doesn't matter so much whether it is tight on you or tight on your layers of padding. Plate might be less forgiving since it doesn't bend at all, other than at the joints. Even cuirboulli leather will bend to an extent.

Also, I made the straps and buckles on each side with a fair bit of play, about 6" on each side. And the front and back are meant to overlap. So it would fit people of different sizes without changing the padding. On someone really short it might be an issue. I'm not sure to what extent you could get away with this in plate armor but +/-5% size is not going to be an issue here. I think with rigid leather at worst you might have to make new (longer) straps, and you could do that fairly easily with only basic leatherworking tools. Even with plate, if there are existing leather straps you could attach to them. What's difficult would be drilling out rivets (leather or plate) and adding new rivets in plate. (Adding rivets in leather is easy, if you have rivets and simple tools, or you can stitch things together which is also fairly strong.)

Arms and legs may be less forgiving than the torso in these terms. If the torso is too long, it gets in the way a little bit. If the forearms are too long, that's your hand. Again with leather, you could cut it to shorten the piece. In principle you could do that in the field. With plate you are pretty much out of luck I think.

[VladD]

That was enlightening, so thanks for that!

As for the arms: there are 2 adjustable pieces on the arms: the Pouldrons and the gauntlets. I think that a fair bit of confection production went on. People of today vary quite a bit in size, but in those days people had a fairly steady diet and those of the upper classes would be better off than the lower classes, but still worse than our diet today and I think it led to lots of people being of roughly the same height. So I theorize that armor was made in certain confection sizes like on a shoemaker's last (they had not developed a size system, but they did have a limited number of molds) so people used padding and adjustable pieces to fit the armor to themselves. Longer underarms: buy long gauntlets, longer upper arms, or broader shoulders, buy bigger pouldrons.

[markc]

jdale,
 I loved the jpeg it help a lot to 'see" what you were talking about.
MDC

[Warl]

In the end, I find no problem with 4 skills for Man.in Armor.

I find it keeps a Balance in the game. Those who want a higher armor type are spending the points to develop Mutiple armor types through their levels until they are able to upgrade without to much penalty to another type.

Those that don't plan to hit the upper armor types just stick with 1 type or None and keep their DPs for other skills.

[markc]

 I think that is one of the good things that RMSS did, in that you had quite a few DP, quite a few skills and categories but not really too much.
MDC

[arakish]

Warl,

I do agree that chain is more restrictive than leather.  However, I still find maneuvering in the two is similar enough to put both into a single skill.  As many others have said, it is my way of cutting down on skill bloat.  Yes, I try to GM with realistic believability, but I also cut corners where I can without going totally fantastical (except with magic/power).  I have nothing against a very large number of skills, I just prefer introducing new players to the system with as few skills as possible, but also give them enough to choose from.  As they progress in the game and get used to system, then they usually do not mind adding more skills, or even introducing new ones not in skill list.

As with jdale's get up, plate armors are a pain.  And plate leggings make it even harder to maneuver.

And you mention a chain hauberk.  Yes that is even more restrictive than just a chain shirt, simply by mass alone, if not for tangling around the legs.  My chain shirt only covers the arms to the elbows and goes down to mid-thigh.  I know some hauberks can go down to the ankles.  Or in Gimli's case, "A bit tight around the chest."

Also, my chain shirt is lighter than normal for a person who is 6'1" and 220 pounds, but my chain shirt cost a pretty penny back in 1984, coming in at about $850 (today's $ it would cost about $2000).  Reason is my chain shirt is a titanium/chromium/steel alloy.  And do not ask where I found it.  That was almost 30 years ago and I no longer remember.  I'd almost bet it was in Europe.  I doubt any American made chain shirts like that back then.  But they could have.

You might be wearing more padding than I do also.  I mostly wear a light padding under the leather shirt under the chain shirt, unless it is too hot.  Just padding breathes better than the leather.  Thus, I am not bogged down as badly with padding.  Hell, us older guys (50+) have to take what advans we can where we can against these younger guys like jdale.

But I do agree the heavier armors restrict more.  Thus the reason why they have higher Qu Penalties and some actually have some minimum Qu Penalties that cannot be made lower no matter how much maneuver in armor skill one may have.

My main point is that there is basically only two types of Maneuver in Armor skills:
Maneuver in Soft/Flexible Armor
Maneuver in Rigid/Inflexible Armor

The differences would be the leather armor would have a penalty of say -30 max and 0 min, whereas the chain shirt would be -80 max and -10 min, but both would use the same Maneuver in Soft/Flexible Armor skill.  It just requires more skill to use the chain shirt than the leather shirt.

Also, there was this:

your level 1 character isn't a Full Fledged Hero with decades or even Years of experience in their chosen profession.

Think about how this works in game terms though. You train for years in chain. One day you finally have earned your plate armor. Suddenly you are effectively a cripple on the battlefield because you've never trained in plate armor. And by cripple I mean -80 or worse maneuver penalty. Do you keep wearing chain, even though you've earned plate, for years, while you train up the skill? Or do you imagine that you spend years in which you put on plate armor, train in it, but then aren't allowed to wear it on the battlefield? Just so you will have the skill when you finally get there? In RMSS/RMFRP, plate and chain aren't even in the same category, so you get literally no benefit whatsoever from all your training in chain when you finally switch to plate.

Thus, a good reason to have just the two skills.  As one goes up through the army or as an adventurer, you may start with soft leather, learning Maneuver in Soft/Flexible Armor.  Eventually, you may warrant or find/buy the more costly rigid leather and begin learning to Maneuver in Rigid/Inflexible Armor.  Later on, you move up to chain and have to learn more Maneuver in Soft/Flexible Armor mainly due to the mass difference.  And finally, you earn that Knighthood and get granted plate armor.  Since you already have some Maneuver in Rigid/Inflexible Armor, you won't be the "cripple" and just have to learn more Maneuver in Rigid/Inflexible Armor.  What think?

As said, just my way of making the game a little more playable without sacrificing complete "realistic believability".

rmfr

[Cory Magel]

Gotta agree with Yamma.  The old mantra I often quote: Fun is > Balance is > Realism.  Making RM overly realistic detracts from the fun for the vast majority of players.  (A big reason why RMU should be simplified where possible without losing what makes it RM).  It's why almost all RM users don't use exhaustion points.  Realistic?  Yes.  Good idea?  In theory.  Fun?  Not really.

Armor, weapons, bleeding... there are a lot of things in RM that are not realistic because they must be balanced instead.  Armor and weapons in RPG's just can't be realistic and work because certain ones would be the obvious choice, especially when you are mixing a number of era's of them together.

I always picture Yoda saying "Realism leads to imbalance, imbalance leads to not fun.  Beware the realism."

[arakish]

Gotta agree with Yamma.  The old mantra I often quote: Fun is > Balance is > Realism.  Making RM overly realistic detracts from the fun for the vast majority of players.  (A big reason why RMU should be simplified where possible without losing what makes it RM).  It's why almost all RM users don't use exhaustion points.  Realistic?  Yes.  Good idea?  In theory.  Fun?  Not really.

Armor, weapons, bleeding... there are a lot of things in RM that are not realistic because they must be balanced instead.  Armor and weapons in RPG's just can't be realistic and work because certain ones would be the obvious choice, especially when you are mixing a number of era's of them together.

I always picture Yoda saying "Realism leads to imbalance, imbalance leads to not fun.  Beware the realism."

Complete, absolute agreement.  Especially with yamma's mantra.  However, I do still like some realistic believability.  Just not so much so as to completely sacrifice the FUN factor.

rmfr