Topic: Bow reloading and multi-round action

[arunwe2012]

Hello all,

Would you consider reloading a bow a multi-round action? Suppose a round and a pc standing in cover of trees with a long bow, he/she shoots as snap action (60% activity) and declares reload for the rest of the round (40%), ending the reload in the next round (30%, snap action) and shooting again with no penalty as a normal action (60% activity). Would this be allowed?

[Ecthelion]

IMO this would be allowed.

[Hurin]

The only problem I see is that your players might reasonably ask if they can start making attacks in the same way: carrying them over partially from round to round. That could open a bit of a can of worms.

[yammahoper]

Yep.

[Ecthelion]

OTOH reloading a heavy cross bow (220%) is certainly a multi-round action. So why should reloading a bow not be?

[Cory Magel]

Pretty confident in saying reloading partially in one round and finishing doing it in the next is just fine, the Heavy Crossbow being the obvious example.

The only problem I see is that your players might reasonably ask if they can start making attacks in the same way: carrying them over partially from round to round. That could open a bit of a can of worms.

What advantage do you see that providing?  They are never going to be able to dedicate more than 100% action to an attack.  Say you could use "Power Striking" (40%) and use the 60% left to start your attack, attack for 40% more the next round, make a 100% attack, then have 60% left over in that round.  What advantage does that really give you other than shifting everything just slightly only to be stuck on that track?

[Hurin]

Sorry, when I posted I did not see that this was the RMSS/FRP forum (I just hit the link that said view unread posts since last visit). I don't know much about how the RMSS/FRP initiative/turn sequence works. My bad.

I know that in the RMU system this might be a bit of a problem, and that's more what I was speaking to.

[jdale]

This applies in RMU and RMSS, just the numbers are a little different. But in RMU,

Using a bow to attack: 30-60%
Draw arrow: 20%

Suppose you are only attacking, no other actions. If you want to attack at max speed, you spend 30% attacking, 20% readying an arrow, 30% attacking. That leaves 10%. If you can't treat reloading or attacking as a multi-round action, your max rate of fire is based on:

Round 1: 30% attack - 20% draw arrow - 40% attack
Round 2: 20% draw arrow - 60% attack - 20% draw arrow
repeat rounds 1 and 2 ad infinitum

So your rate of fire is 1.5 arrows per round.

If you can treat drawing an arrow as a multi-round action:

Round 1: 30% attack - 20% draw arrow - 30% attack - 10% start drawing arrow
Round 2: 10% finish drawing arrow - 30% attack - 20% draw arrow - 30% attack - 10% start drawing arrow
repeat round 2 ad infinitum

So you have a rate of fire of 2 arrows per round, an advantage gained simply because you split your 20% reload action between rounds. In this case you wouldn't gain anything by splitting the attack action. But suppose you want to attack without a penalty. In that case:

Round 1: 60% attack - 20% draw arrow - 20% wasted activity
repeat round 1 ad infinitum

Even though you have additional activity available, you are limited to 1 attack per round. If you could split the attack action, you would instead:

Round 1: 60% attack - 20% draw arrow - 20% start attack action
Round 2: 40% finish attack action - 20% draw arrow - 40% start attack action
Round 3: 20% finish attack action - 20% draw arrow - 60% attack
Round 4: 20% draw arrow - 60% attack - 20% draw arrow
repeat round 1-4

So now you get 5 attacks in 4 rounds just by not wasting that little bit of activity.

In RMSS, it's slower because reloading takes more time, and you're limited to 3 actions per round, but similar advantages can be gained. It's all about using all of your activity efficiently.

Ok, so that addresses why a player might want to split their attack action between rounds. As to the question about what should be allowed, personally I would allow reloading to split across rounds because it makes sense and isn't a big deal. But I would not allow an attack action to be split across rounds because it complicates tracking the round too much, and especially because if you followed that precedent for melee things get really messed trying to figure when parry is active, etc. Instead encourage the player to use the otherwise wasted activity on movement, combat awareness, etc.

[MariusH]

Personally, I would NOT allow reloads to be split into several rounds (or several phases). In my opinion, this is NOT a multi-round action. Allowing this split DOES increase the power of bows. jdale made some examples for RMU, there are plenty of similar examples for RMSS. For instance for short bow, starting with a loaded bow:
1) Normal: Fire, 60% - Deliberate: Load, 40%
2) Snap: Load, 10% - Normal: Fire, 60% - Deliberate: Load, 30%
3) Snap: Load, 20% - Normal: Fire, 60% - Deliberate: Load, 20%
4) Snap: Load, 30% - Normal: Fire, 60% - Deliberate: Load, 10%
5) Snap: Load, 40% - Normal or Deliberate: Fire, 60%

That's five turns of firing every round without any penalty. Similar situations occur for composite and long bow, of course. I prefer to impose a penalty for firing every round, and will thus NOT allow loading bows as multi-round (multi-phase) actions in RMSS. I've not yet tested RMU properly, so I can't say if I'd allow it in RMU or not.

[Grinnen Baeritt]

I'd allow in a "shot"

If the round is 10 seconds, then One shot per 10 seconds is not unreasonable (This is not difficult in reality with a bow), in theory more might be possible if the archer choose to fire using the minimum activity required. Perhaps 2 shots every third round, if activity can be carried over.

However, what I would state is that if ANY activity occurs in the SNAP phase then the shot will be at -20, regardless of what phase the actual shot occurs in. Quite simply an archer is hastily loading during that time, increasing the errors that can occur.

However, this assumes several things, firstly that the target isn't closing on the archer... and in that case the range penalties will certainly apply to the initial shots. Generally, unless the character is well-positioned they won't be able to take advantage for long enough to matter. IMHO.

[MariusH]

However, what I would state is that if ANY activity occurs in the SNAP phase then the shot will be at -20, regardless of what phase the actual shot occurs in. Quite simply an archer is hastily loading during that time, increasing the errors that can occur.

I would like others opinions on this. We have never played that loading in snap gives penalties to fire. You can load in snap and fire in deliberate, and get the +10 bonus. In fact, you can even load in snap one round, and fire in normal phase the next round - again, with no penalties. That's how we've played it.

As for rounds being ten seconds: Yes, maybe one shot - or more - is reasonable in a ten second period. I'm more concerned about how many shots are allowed pr. MELEE ATTACK. I'm sure it's fully possible, in several situations, to make more than one melee attack in ten seconds too. But we stick to rounds, and so I say one melee attack, and one missile attack, pr. round (disregarding things like haste and 2WC). And if you're gonna fire and load in the same round, you're gonna be at a penalty. In OUR game, that is :-)

[Grinnen Baeritt]

Ahh, that's because I treat loading as a form of movement that forms an inherent part of the attack, which limits the loading action to 20% in that rounds Snap phase. It's generally only done by characters in desperate situations when trying to get a shot off early. If the loading continues into another round then the phase modifier is used for the phase that the shot actually occurs in.

The character is (at least in my games) limited to using their OB only once in a 10 second period, which means if they are lucky enough to have time to make a second shot they must either have saved a proportion of that rounds OB to do so.. or the best attack they can make is at +0. With regard to multiple attacks in melee that's a different matter and usually comes down to whether melee combat is "Realistic" or "Abstracted" (I'm in the later camp )

[jdale]

One shot per 10 seconds feels pretty leisurely. When speed-shooting, on a good day I can do twice that (definitely with penalties). If neither I nor my target are in melee and there is no cover to speak of, one per 10 seconds is easy and no penalty. If I'm in danger, then I have to expend some activity moving etc which takes care of that. If the target has cover or is interacting with my allies, realistically it will take longer to get a decent shot. But the rules don't model that variable activity for different kinds of shots, they just give a penalty. (You could in principle allow additional activity to be applied, not to earn a bonus but only to cancel out penalties.) So the question kind of becomes what situation are you trying to model as the norm? Is "normal" a situation where your target is in the open, or one where there is more cover or chaos than that? I think that leaves some room to just balance it against melee instead of worrying about the realism too much.

As for snap...  the rules as written don't apply any penalty for loading during the snap phase, since you aren't making a roll for loading. I see the argument, and you could always get around it by loading in normal and firing in deliberate (or vice versa), but it's a house rule and we don't do things that way.

[Cory Magel]

Yup, lots of people say how unrealistic how often you're allowed to fire a bow (or sometimes missile weapon in general) in many systems, but they are usually basing it on a stationary archer firing at a stationary target (and not factoring in everything else that would be going on in a battle).  Even that video of the guy is must be the best bowman in the world (firing something like 5 shots in 10 seconds while moving around and at moving targets - predictably moving targets however) can only be used, imo, as the example of a MASTER bowman, which RM will simulate in the long run between various factors (reduced reload times, haste, adrenal speed, etc).  Firing at a foe who is actively trying not to get shot, even if you yourself are stationary and in no danger, is different from even that video.  So I don't see the RM round and bowfire as unrealistic or even abstracted - I see it as someone taking the time required to fire a decent shot (which includes; allies possibly nearby, a dodging target, the stress of battle, etc, etc).  Now, when that character is 20th level with better skills, abilities and resources (items) things will change.

Still, realism aside, you can't make missile weapons significantly more powerful than melee weapons or you end up with a game balance problem in the end anyhow.  Granted, you can run out of ammo, but you have the advantage of attacking from range and picking your target on a whim (i.e. you don't have to move to them to attack them).