Topic: How many spells do the non spell using professions usually develop?

[Bruce]

Basically this question pertains to the professions that don't have Mystical as a favored category. It is okay to include those characters who develop more than one profession including spell using professions, but I am asking about only when they develop the non-spell using professions.

This data will be used for some updated character sheets.

Bruce

[Ecthelion]

We often make use of multi-classing in HARP. So a character that wants to develop some spells will at some point simply use a second class that has Mystical as favored category and only then learn the spells.

[Zhaleskra]

I have no data on the numbers, but there are a large number of Universal Sphere spells that it's a good idea for any character to learn, in my arrogant opinion.

[Bruce]

I have no data on the numbers, but there are a large number of Universal Sphere spells that it's a good idea for any character to learn, in my arrogant opinion.

I wouldn't call your opinion arrogant, it's just your opinion. I usually use "humble" (IMHO) when adding my opinion.
I agree there are plenty of useful spells that a non-spell user can learn. But none of my recent players choose to develop any spells for a non spell user because the cost to do so is not feasible. Besides when developing the spell one usually needs to also develop power points (at least to get a few PP's). It is easier and much more cost efficient to add a spell using class and develop spells from there.

But the question is, how many spells have you developed as a non-spell user?

I am trying to gather data so I can make my PDF character sheets more usable. Right now there is 15 slots for spells which, IMHO, should be reduced to maybe 5 or so and an extra sheet for the spell using types. I think there should be more room for any "additional" skills as there are only 7 slots right now.

Otherwise I think this is an interesting poll that maybe even the ICE people can use.

Bruce

[pyrotech]

I haven't had as many players for my HARP Fantasy games as for my HARP SF games, so my experience with this is limited.   But in general it appears that my players would not develop any out-of-profession spells for the first 3 or 4 levels.  After level 5 or so they start to hit diminishing returns on some of their secondary skills and start thinking about adding these kinds of skills.  At around 10th level they often start multi-classing and Ecthelion's experience holds true. 

So I would have to say between 0-3 depending on the level of the characters.

I hope this helps.

[Cory Magel]

There are a small handful of spells that pretty much everyone will develop in our group... Healing being one of them.  This is one of the two biggest reasons I dislike HARP, the spell selection is too generic/shared.  I love the way spells are developed (Scaling) but I much prefer the individuality of RM's lists.

[tbigness]

Due to character creation with background options, Elven characters usually have between 1-3 Spells during that development phase. Some Humans from the Urban also develop 1-3 spells this way. The only big cost is the PP Development and that is chosen once for some PP for these spells. Later in levels spells will get learned as skills level off in diminished returns.

[Bruce]

Wow, 1 - 3 spells for a non spell user is an expensive option! At a minimum of 4 cost per rank with a basic minimum rank of 4, that is 16 DP's per spell. The total cost would be about 48 points for 3 spells. That is half your development points at first level. I'm not sure what background options you are talking about, please enlighten me. I am currently developing characters for a game I will be running starting this Friday (though now this has apparently turned into a demo). I am trying to develop the characters that will show off all the good points for HARP and a non-spell user developing spells at first level doesn't seem like a good option.

[Zhaleskra]

I differ with you Cory, in that I like healing not being "Clerics only, all others need not apply". Granted, the Cleric sphere has the major healing spells. The 4:1 ratio does make it expensive to learn spells without taking an additional profession. However, the ICE preferred method of Humans taking Skill Flexibility instead of Profession Adaptability can reduce this: take a spell you know you want your character to develop as your Favored Skill. And of course, the mixed races can take advantage of this too: take Skill Flexibility as your Human trait (if lesser blood talent), or one of them (if greater).

[Bruce]

I differ with you Cory, in that I like healing not being "Clerics only, all others need not apply". Granted, the Cleric sphere has the major healing spells. The 4:1 ratio does make it expensive to learn spells without taking an additional profession. However, the ICE preferred method of Humans taking Skill Flexibility instead of Profession Adaptability can reduce this: take a spell you know you want your character to develop as your Favored Skill. And of course, the mixed races can take advantage of this too: take Skill Flexibility as your Human trait (if lesser blood talent), or one of them (if greater).

Ah yes, the skill flexibility talent. I hadn't thought about that. There are so many options and so many ways of combining them when making a character that the possibilities are almost limitless.

[tbigness]

I use RMSS so Elves and Urban Humans can take spells a Hobby options. This is how I came up with my calculations. In most cases this is taken a cost of other skills like weapons, crafting or other useful skills.

[Thom @ ICE]

For my own personal use, I tend towards Cory's position - I prefer spellcasting limited to spellcasters, and mystical healing limited to clerics.  I also like the more limited spell list access over the spell sphere. 


But that's why HARP is designed as it is - it is possible for a campaign to be full high magic with every PC and NPC casting spells, or easily limited to a more restrictive environment.

[Bruce]

I use RMSS so Elves and Urban Humans can take spells a Hobby options. This is how I came up with my calculations. In most cases this is taken a cost of other skills like weapons, crafting or other useful skills.

Oh ok. This poll is intended for HARP so I thought your comment was from a HARP perspective.

[Zhaleskra]

On a related tangent, I saw a picture on DeviantArt of Disney Princesses playing D&D. I think Merida would totally be the GM, or playing a different game such as HARP or Rolemaster.

I guess I'm a little biased getting my start in 2E AD&D, where healing being were Necromancy raised the question "why can't wizards heal?". That was later answered in some optional books that did allow arcane healing. Which probably colors my problem with the Cleric being the "heal-bot".

I've played and enjoyed Rolemaster, yet I don't like spell lists having "dead levels".

[Cory Magel]

HARP is fair easier to develop spells as an arms users overall (and that's what I was voting on), however I actually will develop between 3-7 ranks of open Mentalism list spells as a Rogue in RM.  Attack Avoidance up to 3rd level was a good idea, Cloaking up to 2nd or 4th level possibly.  I once even learned 'Leave Item I' in order to pilfer items from a short distance or snatch weapons from a foes hands (after a RR).

[Bruce]

On a related tangent, I saw a picture on DeviantArt of Disney Princesses playing D&D. I think Merida would totally be the GM, or playing a different game such as HARP or Rolemaster.

I guess I'm a little biased getting my start in 2E AD&D, where healing being were Necromancy raised the question "why can't wizards heal?". That was later answered in some optional books that did allow arcane healing. Which probably colors my problem with the Cleric being the "heal-bot".

I've played and enjoyed Rolemaster, yet I don't like spell lists having "dead levels".

Though this should be discussed in a Rolemaster thread I just wanted to add a comment on that. I started gaming with basic then expert then AD&D. Even in those days I kind of thought it was odd that a mage could heal as well. I have always thought healing should be more secluded to the cleric types but there should be some kind of option for other party members to have a chance of healing, of which in HARP and RM they do.
I at first didn't care for those "Dead levels" in RM spell lists, but I grew into the understanding that those levels are meant to spend time in preparation for better more powerful spells.

[Thom @ ICE]

The question of healing spells being available to non-spellcasters or arcane spellcasters is definitely a campaign factor.
I will admit to having had some campaigns where paladin types had the ability to heal, as did monks.... a wizard was able to develop potions (or herbs) of healing - but could not heal directly with arcane magic. 


In other campaigns I allowed the use of "universal" spells as being similar to scaled skills (required special training/ability) but were limited to a finite number of applications per day depending upon how incredible their effort was.  This enabled simple actions (equal to cantrips) to be executed with minimal effort, but also those super-heroic actions to be executed by applying enough power points in the effort. 


Is this kind of scaling something that would interest you? Scaling applied over the top of standard skills - including weapons where instead of talents, an individual can execute rapid fire or multiple target shooting by applying scaling rules, instead of a fixed talent.

[Bruce]

The question of healing spells being available to non-spellcasters or arcane spellcasters is definitely a campaign factor.
I will admit to having had some campaigns where paladin types had the ability to heal, as did monks.... a wizard was able to develop potions (or herbs) of healing - but could not heal directly with arcane magic. 


In other campaigns I allowed the use of "universal" spells as being similar to scaled skills (required special training/ability) but were limited to a finite number of applications per day depending upon how incredible their effort was.  This enabled simple actions (equal to cantrips) to be executed with minimal effort, but also those super-heroic actions to be executed by applying enough power points in the effort. 


Is this kind of scaling something that would interest you? Scaling applied over the top of standard skills - including weapons where instead of talents, an individual can execute rapid fire or multiple target shooting by applying scaling rules, instead of a fixed talent.

Talk about getting off topic!

Are you talking scaling outside of spells? I like the idea. I personally think HARP needs a few more perks like that. I have been toying with the idea of something like that along the lines of a couple of video games I play or have played. I believe a scale system for skills would be awesome for HARP. But on the other hand I seriously think the skill system needs an overhaul of some sort. Especially in the area of weapon skills. But that is just my humble opinion.
....and really should be on another thread, lol.

[Thom @ ICE]

Agreed. My bad. 
If discussion on that is desired please contact me via pm or in a new thread.  Thanks

[Zhaleskra]

I'm fine with limiting the serious healing spells to the Cleric sphere. Again, a little bias; because another game I like, World Tree, has everyone knowing a small amount of magic of everyday/household use. For that reason, I'm fine with any character knowing healing spells that don't mend bone, repair nerves, raise the dead, or stop internal bleeding.

I did not have any of the pregens I made for a convention game develop any spells outside their professional spheres. This topic has given me reason to think on that.