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Offline Tommi

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Bestiary and creature speeds
« on: January 27, 2015, 02:23:10 AM »
I had some computer problems during weekend and needed old backups. While browsing through backups I found my 10 years old file on creature speeds. Inspired by it I checked latest HARP core rules monsters and while some are clearly better than in older HARP versions or in Monsters: A Field Guide (MaFG) there are still several problematic creatures. For creatures that have maximum pace x5 each multiple of BMR 10’ means multiple of 7,6 m/s = 27,4 km/h = 17,0 mph in maximum speed e.g. BMR 25’ means that maximum speed of average animal of that species has maximum speed of 19,1 m/s or 68 km/h or 42,6 mph.

From HARP core rules two examples
1: Gr. White Shark BMR is 44’ meaning that top speed would be 33,4 m/s 120km/h 75 mph while it’s attack speed is less than 50 km/h.
2: Light horse has BMR 42’ (32m/s) and even pony 28’ (21,3 m/s = 77 km/h while top speed for fastest horse has never been measures to over 70 km/h and that is worlds fastest horse – pony might be able to reach 40 km/h but not much more)

As Bestiary is not yet out I thought that some problems could be sorted out before it’s release. So I thought that I post my old material here as food for though. If you want to use it I hereby allow it and even volunteer to check plausibility of monster speeds in Bestiary.

After that rant here is my old method (I corrected page numbers and some other minor things):

Offline Tommi

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Re: Bestiary and creature speeds
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2015, 02:38:51 AM »
Table didn't paste well :-[

Non-humanoid species moving speed:

Different movement styles may generate totally wrong BMRs. To correct this problem these tables have been made. Humanoid BMRs are reasonable and do not need correction. After considering some species I came to conclusion that movement speed needs three new categories: flyers, quadrupeds / swimmers and wormers (snakes etc.)

This data allows one to produce most real animal speeds with reasonable accuracy. When creating monsters there may be need to build unrealistic fast beasts. In that case example 7 gives hint how to correct problem.

It would have been possible to give more realistic BMRs using multiplication factors but to make these tables more like humanoid BMR table in HARP (p.29) only subtractions and additions have been used.

Two limitations were necessary to generate realistic BMRs: flyers (winged) horizontal max pace is limited to x3 as is wormers max pace. Speed in chart is horizontal speed.

Key factors in building BMR are body length and racial talents as before.

Body length (BL) in feet [ft]
•   Flyers BL is 1/3 of wingspan (for gliders 1/4).
•   Quadrupeds BL is 2x withers. (in extreme cases like giraffe average hind and back withers and round down).
•   Swimmers and wormers BL is trivial.
•   For creatures with more legs than four (e.g. centipedes or Marsian dogs) but less than hundred (e.g. millipedes) GM has to decide whether to use quadruped or wormer table. Suggestion: for legs up to 10 quadruped table should be used and BL could be 2x leg length.
•   Total creature length may be used as BL for many legged creatures like millipedes using wormer table.


Winged Flyers      Quadrupeds / Swimmers        Wormers
 max pace x3              max pace x5                 max pace x3 
  BL        BMR             BL         BMR                BL            BMR
5 +         34             20+          20               40 +       10
4 - 5         32          15 - 20     18            30 – 40      9
3 - 4         30          10 - 15     16            20 – 30      8
2 - 3         28           8 - 10      14            10 – 20      7
1,5 - 2    26             6 - 8          13              8 – 10      6
1 - 1,5    24              5 - 6          12              6 – 8      5
0,5 - 1    22              4 - 5          10              4 – 6      4
0,25-0,5 20            3 - 4       10               2 - 4        3
- 0,25     15            2 - 3      8                1 - 2        2
                           1 - 2       6                   - 1         1
                           0,5 - 1      4      
                            - 0,5     2      

NOTE adding length does NOT add speed over maximum speed presented in table.

Quickness modifiers from HARP core rule book p. 29 apply except for wormers. For calculating wormers BMR divide mod by three and round up.

New species talents:
Fast species: +1' wormers; +10' quadrupeds and swimmers; +20' flyers
Very fast species: +2' wormers; +20' quadrupeds and swimmers; +40' flyers
Slow species: -1' wormers ; -5' flyers quadrupeds and swimmers; (BMR has to be at least 1'. In case of flyers use reason).
Very slow species: -2' wormers; -10' quadrupeds and swimmers; (BMR has to be at least 1'. Flyers can’t be this slow and be able to fly).

Fast and very fast species are not cumulative. However blazing speed is cumulative with both talents. Fast individual in examples corresponds to individual for that species with Qu-stat of 100 (that adds 5’ to movement speed).

Examples of some species that would have had totally wrong BMR using esp.using HARP 2nd edition (2002/2003) and MaFG (2004) movement table. BMR 10’ corresponds to max speed of 5m/s for flyers and wormers and 7,5m/s for quadrupeds and swimmers

1: Red-throat divers are one of fastest horizontal flyers. Measured max speed for max speed has been 30-35 m/s. That corresponds (at x3 pace) to around BMR 65'-75'. Now BMR using data presented in this writing: Very fast species, BL about 2 feet (wingspan about 5’), fast individual +5': 40' + 26' + 5' = 71'. Compare to closest equivalent - medium raptor in MaFG BMR 15'.

2: Ostrich: fastest individuals have been able to run up to 20 m/s. For a runner species that corresponds to BMR of 25' - 30'. BMR using this method: legs are 4-5 feet long --> BL 8-10 --> BMR 14, Fast species, fast individual +5': 14 + 10 + 5 = 29'.

3: Black mamba is the fastest snake. It has been seen to move 5 m/s. For a wormer species (max pace x3) that corresponds BMR of 11'. BMR using this method: Black mamba is around 8 ft long (up to 10 ft), very fast species, very fast individual 7'/3 round up --> +3' BMR: 5 + 2 + 3 = 10' (if max length 11').

4: Elephant runs up to 14- 15 m/s that corresponds BMR 19'. Elephant is not especially fast species. BMR using this method: Elephants stand up to 10' at the withers --> BL 20' --> BMR 18' or 20' depending on choosing size (BL 15-20 or 20+).

5: Sword fish - some are able to swim 20 -25 m/s. For a swimmer that corresponds to BMR of about 25' - 30'. BMR using this method: sword fish is 8 to 15 feet long, fast species fast individual: 14/16 + 10 + 5 = 29' - 31'.

6: Ocras max recorded speed are up to 17 m/s. For a swimmer that corresponds to BMR of about 23'. Lets calculate the BMR: Ocras are around 20 feet long (up to 30), they are fast whales: 20 +10 = 30' that is a bit too much but compared to 70' in MaFG  (new addition: or what would come from extrapolating  Ocras speed from Gr White Shark’s BMR this method produces better real life results). ...

7: Spine tailed swifts are fastest horizontal flyers with record around 45 m/s. For a flyer that corresponds to BMR of 100'. BMR using this method: these birds have BL of a bit more than 0,5 feet, very fast species, it is the fastest - blazing speed, very fast individual (Qu-stat 102). BMR: 22+40+5+7 = 74' this corresponds about 35 m/s (78 mph), not quite enough but compared to BMR 7' presented in MaFG (fastest small birds). This could call yet another species talent: fast horizontal flyer: allows 4x BMR or blindingly fast species +60’ for flyers... These special species talents could be usable when building other special species like killer rabbits etc.

8: Sloth is the slowest mammal with top recorded speed a bit over 1m/s (2 mph). For a quadruped that corresponds to BMR of 1.5'. Lets calculate the BMR: Sloth ‘hands’ are about 1,5 feet long --> BL 3' --> BMR 8 or 10, it is very slow -10', hard to say about measured individual but presumably moderately fast. BMR: 8 - 10 + 2 to 4 = 1' - 2'.

Offline Tommi

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Re: Bestiary and creature speeds
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2015, 03:06:26 AM »
Comment on my own post ....

If real life speed data is available it should always come first -  not any formula or method.

Offline markc

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Re: Bestiary and creature speeds
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2015, 03:20:52 AM »
 I like what you have posted and think it is a very important rule addition. IMHO you should write it up and submit it to the Guild Companion for all of the other HARP users out there.
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Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Bestiary and creature speeds
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2015, 09:17:05 AM »



There appears to be some confusion on the horses/pony issue as there are 2 sets of BMR for them in HARP one on the Transportation page and one on the Mounts page.  Transportation page seems to be accurate.  I'll dig up the old files that were used to calculate BMR for them to see if it is a formula issue, or simply a transposition of the wrong #'s.  We'll make note of it for future errata fix either way.


As for the methodology overall, you are presenting step progressions compared to a formula method that was used. Generally similar results as the BL aspect used is the same for biped, quadruped, and flyers.  For swimmers you indicate that body length is irrelevant - I would disagree as the locomotion is caused by the body movement and the longer the body generates stronger propulsion, and thus greater potential for speed - it's not 100%, but it's a better reference than anything else.  Wormers have a number of different forms of locomotion which didn't warrant full evaluation - but might make an interesting TGC article.


The key differentials that you are presenting are the new talents and the max pace limitation.  We used blazing speed on some on the high side, but didn't bother with reducing the slow creatures specifically.  If you use your x3 max pace limitation for swimmers, then Sharks max at 45mph which is not far off from reality, so perhaps that is a key limitation for swimmers.


We'll give the BMR for Bestiary a close review to account for these factors, and I'll review the mount BMR's.
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Offline Tommi

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Re: Bestiary and creature speeds
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2015, 06:00:46 AM »



There appears to be some confusion on the horses/pony issue as there are 2 sets of BMR for them in HARP one on the Transportation page and one on the Mounts page.  Transportation page seems to be accurate.  I'll dig up the old files that were used to calculate BMR for them to see if it is a formula issue, or simply a transposition of the wrong #'s.  We'll make note of it for future errata fix either way.


As for the methodology overall, you are presenting step progressions compared to a formula method that was used. Generally similar results as the BL aspect used is the same for biped, quadruped, and flyers.  For swimmers you indicate that body length is irrelevant - I would disagree as the locomotion is caused by the body movement and the longer the body generates stronger propulsion, and thus greater potential for speed - it's not 100%, but it's a better reference than anything else.  Wormers have a number of different forms of locomotion which didn't warrant full evaluation - but might make an interesting TGC article.


The key differentials that you are presenting are the new talents and the max pace limitation.  We used blazing speed on some on the high side, but didn't bother with reducing the slow creatures specifically.  If you use your x3 max pace limitation for swimmers, then Sharks max at 45mph which is not far off from reality, so perhaps that is a key limitation for swimmers.


We'll give the BMR for Bestiary a close review to account for these factors, and I'll review the mount BMR's.

My table pasted badly here.  AND You read too fast.... as both the text, table and examples clearly say that BL matters for swimmers. That I wrote in the bullet that BL is trivial means that you just measure it from nose to tail - trival measurement = maximum length that measuring tape gives... In my non-native English trivial means something that is so simple that it does not need further explanation - like measuring the length of a stick (which fish almost is).

Quadrupeds and swimmers use same table  AND swimmers even get x5 pace. I limit pace for flyers and wormers

For swimmers x5 makes more sense than any other  animal type  - in nature cruising speed vs attack speed for several marine creatures justify that in this kind of presentation x5 pace is allowed. Often the cruising speed is actually x1.5 or even x2 ( and more for dolphins and tuna fish) but for calculating top speed that is tactically important  - can I flee and if not when does it  overtake me - x5 is plausible factor for swimmers.

For flyers horizontal flight in still air does not warrant as much pace variation as movement in water or on land. Two winged flyers - birds, bats have actually pretty low variation in flight speed  - for many birds cruising speed and top speed are not even  factor 2 from each other.

It looks like that your method  has no cap on animal size - there should be as bigger (at least land) animals are necessary robuster in our familiar gravity (e.g. elephant) and thus it limits movement.  e.g Hydra has never in fantasy been especially fast creature - its shape with 9 heads doesn't warrant very high land speed - now has maximum speed of 88 km/h or 55mph... There should be cap for BL adding speed or you start getting bad results. Actually at certain point BL vs BMR curve should start decreasing.  For fantasy I see that there could be maximum value that the curve asymptotically approaches.

As I mentioned: good multiplication factors etc would be my choice for making the formula. However to make this work as it works for humanoids I used additions and  subtractions. With those limitations my 10 years old and here presented - someone remembered this - method produces superior result for earthly animals.

But real animal analogies should be the base values. No formula should override evolutionary results. Formula should be tested vs. true values and if it doesn't work it should be adjusted.  I thought that Nicholas as empirical physicist would see the value of measured values.

Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Bestiary and creature speeds
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2015, 08:05:44 AM »
It is clear that you are more of a biologist and zoologist than I am, so I will trust your comments in reviewing over the BMR, especially on Bestiary.  I will look to modify the final BMR where necessary, though I don't know if we'll change the calculation method entirely as we do need to maintain consistency - even if it is not 100% accurate to reality. Very few things in Fantasy RPG's are.


My apologies for misreading the table, I guess my interpretation of x3 for swimmers came from my desire to make the previous values make sense.


I respectfully disagree that there should be a cap on movement speed due to size.  If we were dealing strictly with the real world animal kingdom then such a position may be valid, however if a 40' tall horse existed in the fantasy world I would expect it to have a BMR in proportion to it's size without a cap.  This is where the multiple varieties of body types would come into play for each different creature type.  There are more than 1,000 animal orders in the real world, and even at that level the movement types can be significantly different from one species to the next.  While it is accurate to limit an elephant's speed, a similar sized feline or canine would certainly not be limited - therefore the system should not be limited for the base calculation.


We did validate results against actual real world examples, but perhaps the selection of creatures and sources we used did not reliably prove out. 


Just to clarify on the "trivial" comment -
You wrote - Swimmers and Wormers BL is trivial.
This implies that BL is of little value or importance.
Your clarification is that Measurement of BL is trivial indicates better what your intent was.  The method of the measurement is of little value to explain, but that is not what you wrote.  Thank you for clarifying.  I understand regarding the non-native language aspect.










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Offline Tommi

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Re: Bestiary and creature speeds
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2015, 08:32:37 AM »
Ok

Fantasy aspect do allow fantastic creatures. However some use HARP in low fantasy and some may even use it in historical roleplaying games. For them realistic earthly animals would be needed.

A note or something would correct the thing.

My chart, rulings and talents were designed to fit in quarter of a page. Obviously many examples take room. Given more room it would have been different. I struggled to keep it to addition and subtraction - keeping it math light...

Offline Glenn_Gould

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Re: Bestiary and creature speeds
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2015, 05:19:23 PM »
Thanks for the great work, Tommi!

Another thing which might or might not be already covered for creatures is, that their lateral movement can translate in a very different way to their jumping abilities than for humanoids.

Once I tried to build a simple cat and had to adopt the numbers for jumping given in Harp Fantasy, p.43 quite a bit (also the calculations for falling damage, but these are a little bit off anyway imho). But given the variety of animal species it's probably very hard to give general calculations for jumping - just think about a grasshopper vs a rhinoceros as an extreme example.

Offline Tommi

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Re: Bestiary and creature speeds
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2015, 05:11:44 AM »
Thanks Glenn,

Despite my own work on  this subject I vastly prefer systemless creature speed setting. My work was reaction to Monsters a Field Guide's movement system. I do like RM style where each creature has individually set max pace varying from Jog (1,5X) to Dash (5x). When I have made monsters/creatures for RM or HARP I've always used my right as GM to do what I want. I have tested my system for my own monsters and generally got what I had already set dictatorially.

I agree that jumps are even harder to handle. Few days ago I posted  errata suggestion about humanoid jumping table(in HARP-SF part - tables are actually same in HARP too). 

Offline jdale

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Re: Bestiary and creature speeds
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2015, 10:11:59 PM »
Do max paces of x4 and x5 work for flyers if you assume they are diving speeds and not horizontal flight? Just curious if an exception can be removed that way.
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Offline Tommi

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Re: Bestiary and creature speeds
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2015, 02:29:12 AM »
I would personally go even higher than x5 if a special diver species is considered. Some hawks have measured to dive over 90 m/s (+300 km/h +200mph) while their horizontal max speed is less than 30m/s --> IMO there could be note that diving speed is double (or triple for specialized divers like falcons etc.) the max horizontal speed.