Author Topic: Idea: Scaling options for skills  (Read 6163 times)

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Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Idea: Scaling options for skills
« Reply #40 on: February 20, 2015, 02:31:08 PM »
Armor is less effective against a highly skilled warrior, and eventually it doesn't matter how much armor you are wearing if the foe is skilled enough.


Note - I did not say +5 per rank.... I said equal.  I like having higher level characters so the bonus per rank would likely be less.  Why not simplify at +1 per rank... and while you are at it 1 rank costs 1DP, unless it is a favored skill in which case you get 2 ranks per DP, and limit it at 5 DP per skill each level gain.  But wait... I just eliminated 3 charts that add complexity to HARP and make character creation more daunting.


As for magic, I personally don't believe that having more ranks in fireball should give you a greater "hit/damage" roll.  Instead it should allow you to cast a bigger fireball (step progression by size/scaling).  If Joe Apprentice casts a medium size fireball or Merliln casts a medium size fireball - the effect is the same, only the likelihood of successfully casting it changes.  If you want to cast a medium size fireball, but make it dragon breath hot - it's more difficult to do and costs more power - but it doesn't matter who actually cast the spell, the result is the same.


Criticals and combat damage.... I'll save that for another time.


Improving defense or offense is just as easy, and except for special abilities gained from physical, mental or mystical traits... forget about talents.    But then again... it's still a work in progress.

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Offline Bruce

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Re: Idea: Scaling options for skills
« Reply #41 on: February 20, 2015, 03:17:48 PM »
It actually sounds like you want to redesign the entire HARP system. It sounds interesting but does go beyond the scope of the things I am trying to do.

In relation, I once had to design my own system because I had no books but people still wanted to play what I told them about HARP. Since I could not remember all the stats for HARP I designed my own stat system which consequently worked very well, was easier for new comers to understand, and made more sense. I used a system of 9 stats based on sets of 3. The only part I had difficulty doing was balancing out what stats applied to what skills. We had a great time playing for about 3 months or so until duty called. This is where my combat system along with my AP system had been used exclusively. Everything ran great though once I got back home and was able go through my books and research more stuff on the internet I realized where most of my flaws were. Since then I have tweaked and adjust my system and have already play tested the combat system though not for long and it worked great. The AP system is another story and I will hopefully get to playtesting that as soon as the group I am running gets used to the HARP rules as is.

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Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Idea: Scaling options for skills
« Reply #42 on: February 20, 2015, 03:40:18 PM »
Keep in mind that this is only stuff I am playing around with, so yes, there are some pretty major departures from HARP - and also keep in mind that I did not come up through Rolemaster, I cam over from D&D to HARP.  I've played RM a few times, but much prefer HARP over it, and beyond that I believe in greater distance between the two rather than less.

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Offline Bruce

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Re: Idea: Scaling options for skills
« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2015, 03:50:32 PM »
Cool, it's great to see someone that never played RM but has played HARP have ideas like this. You can give a better perspective from a differing game point of view than someone like me. Though I was raised on D&D I started moving away from it in about 1984 when I discovered RM. I went to RM exclusively in 1990 and switched to HARP when it came out. So my D&D experience is limited to 2nd ed and lower though I have some Pathfinder in there and 5th ed more recently.

In relation to the discussion above I am developing one of the pre-gens (Warrior Mage) to second level. In this since I made the house rule that he can use the claymore both one and two handed with the same skill he had a free MWP slot from first level. So I added the twin bladed sword as his MWP. I also decided to give him the Double Weapon style for use with that weapon.

Would it be feasible for the warrior mage to develop the Double Weapon style and use the MWP with it so they could use it for the same weapons they have with the MWP for "Great Blades"?
It kind of makes sense based on how it MWP works as is. But would like other opinions.
Bruce
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Offline Alwyn

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Re: Idea: Scaling options for skills
« Reply #44 on: February 23, 2015, 09:08:35 AM »
I think that conversion would be easy as much of material is just description. If one plays low level game even skills are about the same: skill master level (ML) and skill bonus are numerically about the same.  HARNMaster is D100 roll under and HARP D100 roll over:  ML 80 or skill  bonus requires same roll. However in HARN effective master level (EML) is normally lower and some NPC stats etc might be readily be presented in EML.  Skills in HM open individually and starting ML might be anything between 20 and 70.  If I was running the game I'd multiply NPC  EML's and ML's by 1,1 or 1,2. Peasants, laymans and yeomans etc. could keep the ML presented e.g. in manor statistics.

Bigger difficulty would be psions and clerical miracles - however even psions could be converted to magics. 

Thanks for the info.  I will pass this along.  Hopefully he will be able to get a game going using HARN.
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Offline darb

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Re: Idea: Scaling options for skills
« Reply #45 on: February 23, 2015, 10:44:16 AM »
Thom, I strongly agree with you about changing bonus gain progression.  Decreasing gain is ok, but it is far too rapid and dramatic.  How many higher level, lets say 20th, level characters would put max points into a weapon.  60 potential levels for 120 DP, but a base bonus 110.... not great compared to 30 levels for +80 but half the DP.  High level characters all become sort of generalists, and it is a bit boring. 

Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Idea: Scaling options for skills
« Reply #46 on: February 23, 2015, 11:54:22 AM »
Using the parameters I listed, the 20th level fighter focusing on his sword skills (or archer focusing on his bow) would have:


Old Method - 63 ranks = 126 DP spent = +113 bonus
Proposed - 200 ranks = 100 DP spent = +200 bonus


The proposed method is far simpler to calculate, continues to encourage development, and allows for high level  bonus results for characters who really stick with their favorite skills.


Now when you say, yes you can fire 3 arrows at the same time, but each one after the first adds a -20 penalty to all (therefore 3 means -40 on all 3 shots) and firing at 3 different targets means again -20 penalty for each target after the first (another -40 for all 3 shots), and rapid draw/load (-20 for each arrow beyond the first) = -40, and load and fire in the same round = -20....
-40-40-40-20 = -140..... For that 20th level character, he now has a +60 bonus on his quick draw, three target, three arrow shots.  Each shot still resolves independently.


Even the 1st level archer can try it, but at first level he's only got a +10 bonus, so unless he way open ends on all 3, he doesn't stand a chance.

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Offline Bruce

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Re: Idea: Scaling options for skills
« Reply #47 on: February 23, 2015, 12:21:56 PM »
In relation to the discussion above I am developing one of the pre-gens (Warrior Mage) to second level. In this since I made the house rule that he can use the claymore both one and two handed with the same skill he had a free MWP slot from first level. So I added the twin bladed sword as his MWP. I also decided to give him the Double Weapon style for use with that weapon.

Would it be feasible for the warrior mage to develop the Double Weapon style and use the MWP with it so they could use it for the same weapons they have with the MWP for "Great Blades"?
It kind of makes sense based on how it MWP works as is. But would like other opinions.
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Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: Idea: Scaling options for skills
« Reply #48 on: February 23, 2015, 12:24:39 PM »
I don't see any reason why that wouldn't work.  I'm not a big fan of using two great blades at once, but would not object.
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Offline Bruce

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Re: Idea: Scaling options for skills
« Reply #49 on: February 23, 2015, 01:10:28 PM »
I think exotic weapons add some flavor to a game system and the twin bladed sword is definitely an exotic weapon. The only thing with that weapon is the stats listed are the same as any other great blade. I am thinking of increasing the fumble range up one but it is already 01-04. I know that in the combat system I am developing this weapon will be slower than just about any other great blade because it is such a big weapon and somewhat not as safe as the others.
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Offline Warl

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Re: Idea: Scaling options for skills
« Reply #50 on: February 23, 2015, 03:24:43 PM »
I think exotic weapons add some flavor to a game system and the twin bladed sword is definitely an exotic weapon. The only thing with that weapon is the stats listed are the same as any other great blade. I am thinking of increasing the fumble range up one but it is already 01-04. I know that in the combat system I am developing this weapon will be slower than just about any other great blade because it is such a big weapon and somewhat not as safe as the others.

If your talking about a twin balded sword with blades on both ends al-la Darth Maul?

Then what is the point of it being slower? Isn't the point of having multiple striking ends to attack more often as well as to make it more like a staff for defense?
I agree that the fumble range would need to be increased, as, unlike the staff, it is a bit more dangerous to handle and hitting yourself with the ends is more like to cause injury than bruising. But it should attack a bit more often.
The other balancing factor I would ass, if the game system allowed it, would be to make developing the weapon more costly, as the style is a bit more "advanced".
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Offline markc

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Re: Idea: Scaling options for skills
« Reply #51 on: February 23, 2015, 03:59:32 PM »
 In general for multiple attacks I would prefer to see 2 attacks every 3 rounds or so vs 2 attacks every round, with penalties in every round and if you do not do the round of 1 attack you do not get a round of 2 attacks.
  I could also see a maneuver roll of some sort at the beginning of the round to see if you can take 2 attacks that round and even if you fail the MM roll you get the penalty to attack as you tried to do something besides the simplest solution.

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Offline Bruce

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Re: Idea: Scaling options for skills
« Reply #52 on: February 23, 2015, 04:13:25 PM »
If your talking about a twin balded sword with blades on both ends al-la Darth Maul?

Then what is the point of it being slower? Isn't the point of having multiple striking ends to attack more often as well as to make it more like a staff for defense?
I agree that the fumble range would need to be increased, as, unlike the staff, it is a bit more dangerous to handle and hitting yourself with the ends is more like to cause injury than bruising. But it should attack a bit more often.
The other balancing factor I would ass, if the game system allowed it, would be to make developing the weapon more costly, as the style is a bit more "advanced".
Well this is HARP, though it is the combat system I am developing it is still the same skill system.

I believe the weapon would be slower without the use of the combat style Double Weapon, which allows you to use the multiple attack points of a weapon. The cost for the weapon is effectively doubled if you want to use it to its fullest potential which would be with the combat style otherwise you can only make one attack per round. In the combat system I am developing there are Action Points (AP) where each weapon has a modifier to the base AP cost for a melee attack. In the Two bladed sword example (yes, think Darth Maul) the weapon would be unwieldy and probably about 20% (or so) slower than the average attack speed of melee weapons, but if you develop the Double Weapon style the one attack would happen at the half the AP cost (about 60%) and the final attack would happen at the end (full AP cost), giving the illusion that it is a faster weapon.

Though I am thinking of making it so the first attack happens at the 120% mark then every attack after that is at 50% attack speed of the weapon (as long as you use the double weapon style).

Bruce
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Offline Bruce

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Re: Idea: Scaling options for skills
« Reply #53 on: February 23, 2015, 04:20:34 PM »
In general for multiple attacks I would prefer to see 2 attacks every 3 rounds or so vs 2 attacks every round, with penalties in every round and if you do not do the round of 1 attack you do not get a round of 2 attacks.
  I could also see a maneuver roll of some sort at the beginning of the round to see if you can take 2 attacks that round and even if you fail the MM roll you get the penalty to attack as you tried to do something besides the simplest solution.

MDC

In the combat system I am developing it allows for anyone to get slightly faster at attacking in the higher developed weapons, without the penalty. Now you can still use the standard rules from HARP with my system where any other extra attacks receive all the normal penalties. Like the monk's multiple attacks guidelines, which in this case would not apply to the faster attacks based on better skill levels. But the monk would still get the mods based on if they wanted to make extra attacks or extra opponents except these attacks would happen slightly faster the higher the skills are developed.

Bruce
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