Topic: Developing a Druid, is it safe to use "The Codex"?

[Bruce]

I have a new player wanting to join the group and he wants to play a druid. I thought, cool that wouldn't be to hard. Honestly it isn't as I can use the cleric as the base class with the extra favored categories of Outdoors and either influence or extra ranks in Mystical.

Then I looked through the old supplement book, The Codex and found there is a pretty good template for a druid in there. Spell costs and variations aside, would that profession be viable for use in the latest update of HARP? I can easily substitute many of the spells from the Vivamancer, Cleric, and  the other spells already in HARP. Any others I could develop with the spell creation system.

Would that work?

Bruce

[dagorhir]

I don't see a problem with the profession itself. Any new spells would have to be reviewed under the new spell creation rules to ensure that the PP cost is correct.

[Bruce]

I thought so at first also.
But the special abilities the druid gains are talents from The Codex. I am not sure if it is still balanced for the normal rules. I do like the Druids special abilities, they make sense and fit the game very well. I think I am going to allow it because I don't think the talents unbalance anything.

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

The Druid as written in the Codex is overpowered. Both in terms of professional abilities and the spells. I suggest using the Cleric for favored categories and professional abilities, and then revise the spells hard.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[Bruce]

I can see that to a point but that Influence Animals (master) would be an awesome ability to give a Druid. It fits the Druid.
I can use the generic Cleric but I really want to change some of the professional abilities around. Is there some kind of point value you give to professional abilities so I can look into changing them around a little?

What would it take to make it so the Druid did have that Influence Animals (master) ability, is there some kind of trade off I can manipulate so they gain that ability? How about they start off with the lesser version then move up to the next version every so many levels?

That ability as described fits the druid to a "T". It is overpowered to get it all at once but I think it would make sense if the Druid was able to gain the full master version over time.

TBH I think some of the talents as listed in the core books should be able to be gained over time. Overall you would pay more DP's for it this way but you would gain the full ability in steps and only with so many levels in between.

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

You could split it up by the different abilities that it encompasses. So give 1st-level Druids Speak with Normal Creatures, give 3rd or perhaps 5th, Befriend or Call and so on. Don't give Druids any level bonuses

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[Zhaleskra]

The Codex Druid is close to what, if I'm remembering right, was called an Animist in Rolemaster. Another way to do it would be to have them start with Influence Animals (Lesser), and make the higher versions of the talent a level-based bonus. Not really sure what to do about the spell list, it's both similar to and different from how clerics choose their spells. I would remove the following spells from their selectable spells, as to me they don't really fit the druid theme: Grappling Mist, Sleep Mist, Vacuum, Water Corridor, and Web Bolt.

[Bruce]

The druid theme depends on the type of druid being played. I try and explain three types to choose from which are the, Celtic Druid (typical fantasy), the Shaman (think Native American), and the Witch Doctor (think Amazonian type jungle priest). There are variations of each and one could probably argue for different profession types on them but what I have I associated with more nature than other things. For example the Witch Doctor could also be associated with voodoo priests, some might say they are more like necromancers or dabblers in some ways. It all depends on your point of view.

So with that in mind any of those spells would work as long as they fit the type of druid.

[Zhaleskra]

I think of shamans as different from druids, both historically and RPG-wise. Granted most RPGs focus on the spirit magic aspect for shamans anyway. Probably would put witch doctors in the same category.

While I have divorced myself from the D&D Druid of "Not my problem until it affects the balance of nature", I do like the nature's guardian bits. Which is the reason I don't like Vaccuum being one of their selectable spells. I have other associations with the other three spells I'd remove.

[Bruce]

That's cool, as long as it works for your games.
I agree that the Celtic Druid, the Shaman, and the Witch Doctor are different historically and in many other ways. But in terms of HARP it is much easier to associate them in one classification or profession. Right now they all are associated under the Cleric along with the Paladin (you would use the cleric to create those listed and many others). I also believe the three are more closely associated than anything in the mage area, especially when you get down to how they draw in their power. Though I do think they should be offered different professional abilities than the base cleric gains. I believe the way to go when adding new professions is to not add a completely new profession unless absolutely necessary. It is much easier to add sub professions with differing abilities. The interesting thing is the new mage professions in CoM is exactly like what I explained about the Cleric above. In essence the Mage (after CoM) does have one or two skill category options like the cleric along with differing professional abilities. In those new professions only one category is different and they all have the same amount of free skill ranks in that category and they all have slightly different professional abilities.

I also think there should be more choices for racial abilities. The human does have one they can make a choice on but I think all the races should have a minimum of about 5 or 6 to choose from based on their race and culture, and yes I am saying that each culture should offer a few racial abilities to choose from. Though I do agree on the limit of three per race, but there should be more options.

[Thom @ ICE]

The whole concept of Racial abilities is that they are common bonuses found within everyone of a specific race.  The difficulty with humans is that everything that is done is done against a base standard that is "human".  So racial abilities for humans are effectively what we all take for granted as being normal.   Therefore, we get a little more creative and allow a little extra variety within human.


Cultural abilities would be an interesting modification, since many of the abilities are really alignments with their surroundings.  Racial abilities should conceptually be more about the physical/mental/mystical building blocks of the race and should not be biased by their culture or environment.

[dagorhir]

The whole concept of Racial abilities is that they are common bonuses found within everyone of a specific race.  The difficulty with humans is that everything that is done is done against a base standard that is "human".  So racial abilities for humans are effectively what we all take for granted as being normal.   Therefore, we get a little more creative and allow a little extra variety within human.


Cultural abilities would be an interesting modification, since many of the abilities are really alignments with their surroundings.  Racial abilities should conceptually be more about the physical/mental/mystical building blocks of the race and should not be biased by their culture or environment.

When it comes to humans, I would have preferred extra DPs instead of a choice of talents. That allow for a greater variability in humans. The DPs could be used for skills or talents.

[Thom @ ICE]

Since every racial ability has an estimated DP cost (for use in ensuring reasonable balance) you should be able to toss aside the racial ability and use those DP for something else without significantly impacting playability.

[dagorhir]

Since every racial ability has an estimated DP cost (for use in ensuring reasonable balance) you should be able to toss aside the racial ability and use those DP for something else without significantly impacting playability.

I have often considered doing that, if it's just to get HARP and RMU in line. My spreadsheet has 55 DPs for the humans (other races have 60). I don't know how close that is to the actual estimates.

[Bruce]

Since every racial ability has an estimated DP cost (for use in ensuring reasonable balance) you should be able to toss aside the racial ability and use those DP for something else without significantly impacting playability.

But what are those "estimated" DP costs? I would think to use the Talents list but some of them are not listed.

TBH I think there should be some kind of variety in racial abilities when it comes to cultures. A few races from Shadow World come to mind. One in particular is a desert race that has an extra set of eyelids because of the desert wind and sandstorms.

I have been toying with an idea for my world I guess I will let out of the bag here. It would fit my idea of culture specific racial abilities and I think this would make for something of an epic quest adventure.
Many races have claimed to be the oldest of races and most have accepted the Elven race as the first race. The Elves have closely guarded their heritage and stand their ground when it comes to this. But what if the Elves weren't the first race? What if humans were the first race and every other race is an off shoot that adapted to it's environment over time? Maybe somewhere within the Elven archives or hidden in some lost library there is evidence that proves this, maybe there is a prophecy of a pure human child that will be born with full Elven traits. Then there is that old story of a lost tribe of Elves that look completely human. What does all this mean? There are those who know of such rumors/prophecies and will do anything to stop the spread of such heresy. What would be the outcome of such a discovery?

[Thom @ ICE]

I would say that if the environmental impact causes a genetic mutation/evolution then effectively it is a new race.
A desert race with an extra set of eyelids would be a new race in my book.
Interesting concept....


In terms of creating a HARP race, I would see the concept of environmental evolution to be -
Base Race has 3 racial abilities (ABC)
They then adapt and over time develop racial ability D, but find little use for A, so this race has BCD.
Over time they develop in another way and C is no longer as important, but is still used.  At the same time another new ability begins to manifest itself.  B C- D E-    (- indicating a lesser version).
At the same time there is another spinoff that focuses on embracing ability D, but use B less.  They become B-CD+ (+ iindicating a more powerful version).


Same concept over time could easily be used to move from a race with 60/0 (Endurance/PP) and ABC abilities into 30/30 with DEF and eventually with 10/50 GHI.


Evolution can create some crazy stuff....

[Bruce]

I guess you could call it environmental evolution. Though I am more inclined to call it adaptability because I am also thinking that over time an adapted race could return to the original 60/0 (from your example) if placed long enough in an environment that supported that.

This idea and the ones above come from me wanting to make the human race in gaming a little more appealing. The first few games I demo'd it seemed everyone wanted to play anything but a human. After working on it a bit I realized most races could benefit from such a thing but also still make the human a little more appealing. I honestly don't see any reason a race could have one or more optional racial abilities to liven things up a little, give the player a few more choices in creating a varied character (though it is already easier in HARP than other games).

Optional racial abilities is a decent idea though I think (and to put it somewhat back on track) optional professional abilities would be an even better idea. One option is the Druid Influence animal ability (the original topic of this post) as an optional ability to the the cleric's leveling bonuses like Nicholas mentioned above.

[Zhaleskra]

I checked the Codex against the 20 ranks in favored skill categories. Passes that with flying colors. The Codex Druid's unbalancing, I think, is that they start with the Influence Animal (Master). I will need to get the new College of Magics to check how Codex spells should have their PP costs adjusted.

[Bruce]

I checked the Codex against the 20 ranks in favored skill categories. Passes that with flying colors. The Codex Druid's unbalancing, I think, is that they start with the Influence Animal (Master). I will need to get the new College of Magics to check how Codex spells should have their PP costs adjusted.

I have a pdf I developed that helps with creating new spells. Right now it only calculates the base PP cost of the spell. I want to add some features where you can put in all the scaling options and lists everything you used to create the spell in a printout page.

I know all the spells need to be redone and I have so far redone only one. But in due time...

[Cory Magel]

Part of what you're talking about (Bruce) is why I like the idea of having Race and Culture separated.  If I'm an Elf I'm going to have a certain set of Racial influences that are inherent, but if I was raised by Dwarves then my Culture will teach my skills often very different than traditional elves raised in an elven society.