Topic: Number of spells for a cleric

[Gathar]

Hello,

I can read in the new edition of Harp Fantasy:

For professions who combine an interest in magic with other
emphases, for example the Harper, Ranger, and Warrior Mage, their spheres will initially contain 15 spells. New spells for each of these professions will be found in College of Magics and other sourcebooks to add to the existing dozen spells known by these professions. For professions whose principal focus is magic, namely the variant specialist mage professions introduced in College of Magics (e.g.,
Elementalist, Necromancer, Thaumaturge, and Vivamancer),
their circles or spheres should initially contain 30 spells.

Up to now, I tend to find this rule quite reasonable, but then, I have a look at the cleric: He only has 20 spells. Which is much closer to a half spell user than to a full spell user. And I think this choice looks strange to me. I think I could agree if he had access to the combat category. But if he does not, am I the only one to believe this is a little bit unbalanced?

For instance, my cleric chose a god inspired from the Mesopotamian god Sîn, god of the moon, of secrets, of fertility... Which means I have given him as favoured categories subterfuge and influence. I then tried to decide the list of spells available, and it is really, really hard to restrict the list to 20.

I have currently short-listed those 25 spells (I still use the Codex): Calm, Cure disease, Dreams, Guidance, Holy symbol, Lifegiving, Major healing, Restoration, Turn undead, Changing ways, Quiet ways, Sleep, Darkness, Invisibility, Past visions, Mage light, Analysis, Cloud scrying, Deep trance, Nightvision, Shadow armor, Hidden pocket, Potion mastery, stabilize elixir, animal transformations.

When I compare this list to the 40 spells that are allowed to the magician in my group, this does not seem really balanced: The magician has access to more spells, and with more divers effects.

Do you think it would unbalance the game to allow more spells to the cleric (or at least to a non fighting cleric)?

[pyrotech]

Hello,

In short I suspect adding more spells to the cleric list will slightly unbalance it, but to a fairly small degree.  If it works better for you your players are unlikely to notice the shift in power - unless the game runs into the 10th - 15th level range and your players don't like multi-classing.  In that case the difference may start to be more apparent.

Here is a spell list I created for Hera that has the same spheres of influence

Nature, Focus and Aspects
marriage, women, intrigue
Favored Skill Categories
Influence
Subterfuge
Bless   Confusion
Calm   Curse
Dreams                   Distractions
Herbal Enhancements   Invisibility
Intuitions                   Poison Enhancement
Lifegiving                   Presence
Lifekeeping           Project Voice
Major Healing           Sleep
Beguiling Voice           Tongues
Charm                   Wards

You can see the rest of my greek pantheon here:
http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=13760.msg176281#msg176281

My Egyptian and Norse pantheons are here and here for further reference:
http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=13843.msg177496#msg177496
http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=13522.msg173180#msg173180

Maybe one of them will give you some ideas.  I don't have Codex so I only used the newer CoM and Core book to build these lists.  Also be aware that these are actually written for a bunch of rebranded religions in my campaign world so some of them make a few choices that may seem unusual. 

Regards,

[dagorhir]

I can't speak to the balancing issue but it is possible to give a cleric more than 20 spells as a list of spells that a deity can provide, but the individual clerics of that deity can only learn 20 of those spells. This option doesn't unbalance the game and provides a certain amount of variety among clerics of a specific deity.

[Gathar]

Thank you dagorhir for this neat idea, I think I will try it

[Bruce]

You could also try adding a new talent that allows the cleric to increase the number of spells he has.
Based on the Arcane circle talent (25 DP's) from College of magics I would say that since the character is picking spells that would normally be within the gods sphere (1/2 cost of 25) and that they would only get an additional 10 spells (again half cost) the cost would be about 5 to 7 DP's. If your afraid of balancing issues then increase the cost of the talent to 10 DP's.

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

If you really need to increase the number of spells, then use the Extended Arcana talent which adds 5 more spell sigils for 10 DPs.

Also consider dagorhir's suggestion. 

The nature of Clerical spheres where everyone else's spheres and circles can be raided require Cleric creators to find their foci and not go aftee everything.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[Bruce]

I can't speak to the balancing issue but it is possible to give a cleric more than 20 spells as a list of spells that a deity can provide, but the individual clerics of that deity can only learn 20 of those spells. This option doesn't unbalance the game and provides a certain amount of variety among clerics of a specific deity.

In the rules I believe it states that only 10 spells have to come from your chosen diety's list of spells, the other 10 can come from whatever sphere as needed. I have have the rule they at least have to "not go against" the diety's areas of influence. If they are against the undead then you wouldn't be able to develop raise undead or control undead spells.

I might concede some as with Nicholas's suggestion but I think 10 dps for 5 spells is a little high. I might do 5 DP's for 5 spells... but I would have to see how it plays out....

[dagorhir]

I can't speak to the balancing issue but it is possible to give a cleric more than 20 spells as a list of spells that a deity can provide, but the individual clerics of that deity can only learn 20 of those spells. This option doesn't unbalance the game and provides a certain amount of variety among clerics of a specific deity.

In the rules I believe it states that only 10 spells have to come from your chosen diety's list of spells, the other 10 can come from whatever sphere as needed. I have have the rule they at least have to "not go against" the diety's areas of influence. If they are against the undead then you wouldn't be able to develop raise undead or control undead spells.

I might concede some as with Nicholas's suggestion but I think 10 dps for 5 spells is a little high. I might do 5 DP's for 5 spells... but I would have to see how it plays out....

In HARP fantasy, the requirement was reduced to five spells from the Cleric Sphere. My initial clerics had anything between 25 and 30 spells to chose from, with several mandatory spells. They still had a maximum of 20 spells which actually never became a problem as no player has brought a character at a high enough level to have developed 20 spells. Full spell casters ended up with a dozen spells, while semis had less.

[Zhaleskra]

I like the reduction from HARP Fantasy, less time spent limit Clerics to their own sphere.