Topic: Question about combat for first time player/gm

[Chaoswarlord]

Good afternoon,

I'm not sure I'm grasping combat all that well. Is it supposed to be pathetically easy to hit someone?

For example, I made up a 1st level Cleric (with combat group, so a Paladin), with the following stats:

OB - 40 (Skill rank (6) in Long Swords 30 + Stat bonus 10 (str 6, agi 4), no talents or weapon bonus)
DB - 38 (Quickness 55, for bonus of 1, doubled to 2 + armor bonus of 36, no talents)

So, lets say he's fighting a duplicate of himself. Without parry, it would be an open-ended roll + 40 - 38, which means he's at a +2 to hit before he ever rolls. Unless he fumbles, it's a undeniable hit.

Even if uses half of his OB to parry, that makes it a OB 20, DB 58, which means he still only needs a 39 or better rolled to hit. And if he goes full parry, it takes his DB up to a 78, which is reasonable, but he can't attack then.

I know combat is supposed to be nasty, but it just feels like I'm missing something.

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

CW

[Hurin]

+2 to hit doesn't mean an undeniable hit. You have to look up the total number on the chart of the weapon you are using against the opponent's armor type (I am assuming; this is the way it works in Rolemaster, Spacemaster and MERP). In Rolemaster, you don't start hitting usually until you roll in the high 80s or more.

[pyrotech]

In my experience, this is pretty much correct.  But take note of a few things.

1) Most hits with less than a result of around 20 or 25 are pretty insignificant.  Most fights don't end because you grind them down on hits, but rather a nasty crit (especially after a stun).  So 5 or 10 hits of damage when a 1st level character starts with around 40 or 50 isn't that big of a hit.

2) Early on OB goes up with levels much faster than DB does.  Once the character has a couple levels and some cash they can get 15 or 30 better DB armor, but better than that can be more difficult.  But that same character can easily get +15 more OB every level for the next two or three levels.  Put more OB into parry if you are fighting something dangerous.  People who take the "the best defense is a good ofense" option quickly burn up their Fate points staying alive.  Later on better equipment is much easier to get and the skills start going up slower, so the equation changes.

3) hits go up pretty much just as fast as OB.  This makes low number hit result even less significant as you level.  Again it is the big crit result that will likely finish the fight.

So in general I'll say hits are pretty common, but meaningful hits are less so.

[Chaoswarlord]

Excellent. Thanks for the replies. I guess I'll just set up a test fight and see how it goes.

CW

[Alwyn]

Chaoswarlord,

There are various combat actions (offensive and defensive) that can modify the "to hit" and "crit" rolls.  These maneuvers could make it more or less likely to make connect and do damage, especially with the ones from Martial Law. 

[Zhaleskra]

I'm curious why people post RM-based replies in topics clearly in the HARP forums? Yes, the systems are similar, they are not the same.

[dagorhir]

Perhaps they are confused. 

[Cory Magel]

I'm curious why people post RM-based replies in topics clearly in the HARP forums? Yes, the systems are similar, they are not the same.

I've played HARP and RM.  HARP does use attack tables and skills very similar to RM.  Hurins point seemed correct, he was just using his RM experience as the example.  I'm not seeing how it was unhelpful.

[Thom @ ICE]

Actually, his response can be very confusing to a 1st time person playing HARP who is also not familiar with RM - and aspects of it are incorrect for HARP.


Please make sure you are responding appropriately to the game system that is being discussed.

[Cory Magel]

Sorry, I don't get it.  It's not like it's taboo to utter the words Rolemaster in the HARP forum.  He merely pointed out a certain bonus wasn't an "auto-hit" based on how the attack table, your skill, and various bonuses work in combination.  The concept behind his opinion (how all those things relate) is the same in both systems.

I'm mainly an RMSS user, but we've run a full campaign using HARP and, while the numbers on the tables are not exactly the same, his statement was fairly accurate so far as I can tell.  The only major difference is armor in HARP provides DB rather than being reflected on the table itself... but the end result is the same.

[Bruce]

Cory, it's not that it's taboo but it can be confusing to newcomers if you relate an experience of a different system than the one the topic is on. Combat in HARP is similar but very different than RM. Armor adds a Defensive bonus in HARP whereas in RM there is a separate column for each armor type. In RM there is literally a weapon chart for each and every weapon, but in HARP the base charts are per weapon type (slashing. crushing, puncture, etc) and the attack size determines the cap (for damage and what not) on that chart. That is completely different than RM and (IMHO) HARP has no where near as great a combat system as RM.

Now in response to Chaoswarlord. You seem to be spot on except for one thing. You state the Armor bonus of the cleric is a 38. If that is your skill bonus that does not apply to your DB. The armor skill bonus goes to offset the maneuver penalty for the armor being worn with a minimum penalty based on the armor type (also don't forget to take into account if the armor is fitted or not). Each armor type has a set DB bonus that is automatically applied to whomever is wearing said armor. All that info is on pg 94 of the core book. FYI, UF stands for Un-Fitted.

Things to consider:
1. If your total roll to hit after all modifiers is over a "0" (zero) then you hit and do damage. So to answer your question, yes it is pathetically easy to hit someone.
2. Most spell casters (like clerics) tend not to wear armor because they have casting penalties (costs more power points to cast each spell when wearing armor) that is also in the chart on page 94 on table 10.1 in the CP column (Casting Penalty).
3. In the core rules each PP you go above the base spell being cast it is an extra -5 penalty to cast that spell. You will fail casting the spell if your total roll (plus modifiers) is below a 71 as you need a 70+ total to cast any spell.

I hope this helps!

Bruce

[Thom @ ICE]

No it is not taboo - and no warnings were issued nor harsh remarks made.  I simply stated to "Please make sure you are responding appropriately to the game system that is being discussed."


Now as for why his post was inaccurate, I should not need to explain this - but the post was:

+2 to hit doesn't mean an undeniable hit. You have to look up the total number on the chart of the weapon you are using against the opponent's armor type (I am assuming; this is the way it works in Rolemaster, Spacemaster and MERP). In Rolemaster, you don't start hitting usually until you roll in the high 80s or more.

Error #1 - Having a minimum value (not including fumbles) of +2 does in fact mean it is a hit. Every chart will show some level of damage for a result of 2.


Error #2 - You do not check a weapon chart against armor type.  That is only in RM.  In standard HARP you simply subtract the DB.


Error #3 - You do not refer to a chart for the weapon - you refer to a chart for the critical type. (puncture, Crush, slash, etc.)
 
Error #4 - The fact that in RM you need an 80 or more to start doing damage is irrelevant to HARP.  In HARP it starts at 1 and a result of 80 is normally a pretty significant impact.


Now I understand people get confused at times regarding which boards they are posting on and which rules are being discussed.  That's fine, though I am asking people to pay a little more attention.  It doesn't take much to look at the folder path to see what board you are in.


In this case the response provided was entirely inaccurate and could definitely confuse a newcomer to the system.

[Thom @ ICE]

As I had already written the response when I saw Bruce's I let mine be posted as well.
He went above and beyond digging further into the original poster's post, but in essence we're both saying the same thing.  The original response was inaccurate.

[Cory Magel]

Ah, he mentioned armor type.  I missed that.  In both RM and HARP you roll the skill, add and remove bonuses, apply it to the table... all that works the same, it's the armor that might confuse.

[Thom @ ICE]

It was more than the Armor Type.
4 statements were made and all 4 were wrong for HARP.
* +2 doesn't mean an undeniable hit
*Look up the total number on the chart of the weapon
* Opponent's armor type
* High 80's or more


Saying it all works the same is again inaccurate and confusing.  It doesn't.  HARP combat system is loosely related to RM's but not the same. 


Please refrain from giving out inaccurate information, or in this case suggesting inaccurate information is correct.
Thank you.

[Zhaleskra]

@Cory Magel, I said I was curious; I know it's possible to be confused which forum you're in if you go off either of the "jumps" on the start page. Please also refrain from reading in judgment out of neutral statements or questions. I asked because I see a lot of people giving RM answers in HARP forums.

[Cory Magel]

+2 to hit doesn't make something an undeniable hit.  That's accurate.  If you don't reach a positive number (or close), you haven't hit.  +2 isn't exactly a massive bonus and is by no means a guarantee you're going to hit.

HARP has attack tables (combined with the crit tables that would normally be separate in RM) that you do look up your final number result on.  That's accurate.  You take all bonuses and all penalties and if you reach a positive number (or, again, close), you look it up on the table if you made it on the table.

While armor type does not make a difference after the roll (as it does in RM) it adds DB in HARP, which applies to the roll.  This was the statement that would be most confusing as Hurin implied it would modify the results after the roll.  That doesn't happen in HARP.

The high 80's comment he qualified that statement with "In RM" and he was talking about the fact that you have to reach a certain number to hit.  The confusion here would be you only need to have a positive number to hit in HARP (actually, even some negative numbers can do minimal damage if I remember right) once you've applied all the numbers.  It does work the same, but in RM you can have a number far far into the positive and still miss.  HARP that's not the case. Confusing, quite possibly, but I wouldn't say it was wrong.

Sorry, I guess the response just seemed a little... unfriendly I guess I'd say. A bit like "What is the RM user doing in the HARP forum" as if he couldn't possibly contribute anything constructive.  I know people do sometimes reply without realizing they are in the HARP forum (and the other way around once in a while), heck I've done it myself (when you look up "new posts since last visit").  And yes, some of what Hurin said could be confusing, but his attempt to help was not entirely incorrect or assuming he was using RM and replying from that perspective alone.

[Thom @ ICE]

I am closing the topic.
Original Poster's question has been answered.


Ongoing discussion has become argumentative and is no longer adding anything to the topic.