Topic: Materials bonuses

[Malim]

We talked about material bonuses for etc. Mithril.
The bonus is allways for weapons it seems.
what about a armor or helm of mithril or high steel for that matter?

I cant find the info anywhere, not treasures of middle earth, alchemy companion, C & T I, II or III....

[arakish]

I have always ruled that the Material Bonus of any item only applies to the item's Strength and Breakage Checks.  I have NEVER allowed an item's Material Bonus to apply to OB/DB.

I may be assuming incorrectly that you do not possess it, but have you read the newer Treasure Companion?

There are three different types of spells that impart a bonus to items: Weapon I-V, Armor I-V, and General I-V.

Weapon applies a bonus to items intended to be used as weapons: swords, staffs, arrows, maces, etc., etc.
Armor applies a bonus to items intended to be worn/used as protection: armor, clothing, shields, greaves, etc., etc.
General applies a bonus to all other item types: lock picks, rope, cooking pots , belts, scabbards, etc., etc.

Then comes the question of bows and arrows.  I have ruled that bow with a bonus is used for "hitting" the target.  Arrows with a bonus actually applies the bonus ÷ 5 to the critical roll, not "to hit" the target.

For example, say a person has a +15 bow and +15 arrows.  The +15 for the bow is applied to the OB.  If the arrow hits AND achieves a critical, then the critical is modified by a +3.

I also have ruled that a +20 sword has a +20 "to hit", AND if a critical is achieved, the critical is modified by a +4.  This is to show that a "magical" weapon is more deadly than a normal weapon.

The same is applied for armor/shields, except the bonus applies a negative modifier to the critical roll.  Example, +15 armor would have a +15 to DB and a -3 modifier to any critical.

Of course, others will disagree with me...  Some may even like my methodology for bonuses.

rmfr

[tbigness]

The only criticism for the methodology of your system is that these crit bonuses may hit different regions of the body than originally intended. such an Arm cirt may result in a lower leg crit. Unless you reflect this as a crit category shift with the severity of the crit being increased or decreased by the modifier with results no less than A and at the lowest score of the body part originally hit. This would pose as an interesting Idea as to the protection of Mitheral, Adamentium, High Steel .... Ect... for causing or protecting from wounds by material strength alone.

[arakish]

The only criticism for the methodology of your system is that these crit bonuses may hit different regions of the body than originally intended. such an Arm cirt may result in a lower leg crit. Unless you reflect this as a crit category shift with the severity of the crit being increased or decreased by the modifier with results no less than A and at the lowest score of the body part originally hit. This would pose as an interesting Idea as to the protection of Mitheral, Adamentium, High Steel .... Ect... for causing or protecting from wounds by material strength alone.

And that (see highlight above) is why I chose to do it as explained in previous post.

I don't plan on using the new style of critical tables (specifically the RMU versions).  I much prefer the older ones and compensate "on-the-fly" for hit location.  I understand the "called shot" principle.  Depending upon where the player wishes to hit, I apply a modifier depending upon the location desired.  For example, if a player calls he wishes to hit in the head, I will apply a -75 modifier, due to the fact that the head is a much smaller target AND it is easy for the opponent to block that shot simply by putting his arm/shield/etc. in the way of the swing/jab/etc, or by simply ducking out of the way.  Of course, these modifiers are further modified by size difference of the opponents.  For example, it is easier to hit a dragon in the head if s/he is stupid enough to have it close enough to hit it.

It also depends upon the situation also.  For example, if the player has been knocked down and then calls for a shot to the lower leg(s), then the player would actually receive a +50 due to the fact the player is already in a prime position to hit the lower leg(s) AND the opponent is probably looking to do a "coup de grace."  In this same situation, a head shot would be virtually impossible (unless the weapon is very long such as a spear/etc.).  A torso shot would probably be even (+0).  A groin shot would get a +15 to +25.  Et cetera.

Basically, I do this "on-the-fly" since I have never created a table for such things.  Even with the RMU, I still use the simpler RM1 combat method.  Although I understand some persons desires to be as "realistic" as possible, I still prefer simplicity since it speeds things along and I am not bogged down looking up modifiers on numerous tables (which can take up to several minutes).

I shall always quote Cory Magel's sig: Fun > Balance > Realism.  (Might be remembering it wrong.)  Although I do prefer realism, I have found it does nothing but bog down the role playing.  And, as a GM, I much prefer role playing over roll playing.

I have found that RPGing tends to more fun and enjoyable, the simpler you make the mechanics.

My GMing style has progressed through the standard evolution of all GMs: Monty Haul GM, Rules Nazi GM, The Balancer GM, to the final stage Let's Just Have Fun GM.  My current style is usually "on-the-fly" judgments since I have been RPGing since 1975, and using RM since 1981.

Basically, I have been RPGing so long, I have found that a "good" general understanding of the guidelines is enough.

The only time I may pause the game for a RAW search is if a player calls me out on a judgment.  Or, the player actually has a copy of the guidelines and points something out to me.  Then I will read the rules, cogitate, then make a final judgment and give an explanation.

rmfr

[Malim]

Aaaand back to subject

I would like to knw if there is any place where it is described what mithril or other mats does when you craft them into helm, armors etc.. as a base line!

We use mat bonus pretty straight forward: Mithril weapons are +20 bonus and use the mithril crit table on large creatures and have a higher lvl vs spells.

But mithril helm isnt gonna be +20 DB since that is kinda insane for a fairly "cheap" item compared to a AT17 base cost.

[Lorgalis]

NON magic Mithril weapon = +20 OB.
Non magic Mithril armor = + 20 DB (or remove QU penalty or movement maneuver penalty).
Non magic Mithril shield = + 20 DB vs the one you use it against.
Non magic Mithril helm = + 0 DB, but might be lighter and/or more difficult to break.
The helm won't give you a bonus to DB unless it's magic involved.

[Hurin]

The chart on p. 18 of Character Law (RM2, red band version) shows Mithril gives a +20 bonus. Materials of this sort give a bonus to OB if used for a weapon, and DB if used for armor/shields.

Those are the Rules As Written, I believe. However, I actually agree with you, Arakish, at least as far as armor goes; this is something I've felt for a while now (and it recently came up in another thread, so we're not the only ones!). I don't like giving a DB bonus to armor and shields, since DB seems to me more the ability to avoid a blow. I'm not sure a mithril plate would be any better at protecting against an arrow than a bronze one; rather, the Mithril plate should just be lighter and far less likely to break. So I'd be happier just increasing the breakage factor of the mithril plate and making it lighter than giving a DB bonus.

I'm not sure I'd go as far as to do the same for weapons though; I think that there, an OB bonus makes a bit more sense. Try to cut a loaf of bread with a knife made of wood and then try to cut the same loaf with a knife made of steel. You will see a real difference in their cutting abilities. I'm not sure how else to represent that other than with an OB bonus.

[Spectre771]

since DB seems to me more the ability to avoid a blow. I'm not sure a mithril plate would be any better at protecting against an arrow than a bronze one; rather, the Mithril plate should just be lighter and far less likely to break. So I'd be happier just increasing the breakage factor of the mithril plate and making it lighter than giving a DB bonus.

What you explain here is why we gave +20 to DB to the armours and shields.  Mithril is lighter, and therefore more maneuverable, making it easier to avoid the blow.  Even in full Mithril plate, if the Mithril version of full plate is x# of pounds lighter and more maneuverable then the steel version of full plate, then the wearer of the lighter version is more able to duck, dodge, weave, "roll with the punch" when struck, thereby increasing the DB of the wearer.

But with RAW, isn't Mithril a magical alloy?  I thought I read in one of the companions that it was, maybe Elemental Companion?  In my mind's eye, I envisioned Mithril as lighter, silver-ish in color, "sounds like rain falling when links are rubbed together such as AT 16", softer, and extremely lightweight (again paraphrasing from one of the Companions).  It's the softer and lightweight components that led me to picture Mithril as able to withstand blows and to increase DB/maneuverability and allowing it to be more effective as a shield. 

[Hurin]

since DB seems to me more the ability to avoid a blow. I'm not sure a mithril plate would be any better at protecting against an arrow than a bronze one; rather, the Mithril plate should just be lighter and far less likely to break. So I'd be happier just increasing the breakage factor of the mithril plate and making it lighter than giving a DB bonus.

What you explain here is why we gave +20 to DB to the armours and shields.  Mithril is lighter, and therefore more maneuverable, making it easier to avoid the blow.  Even in full Mithril plate, if the Mithril version of full plate is x# of pounds lighter and more maneuverable then the steel version of full plate, then the wearer of the lighter version is more able to duck, dodge, weave, "roll with the punch" when struck, thereby increasing the DB of the wearer.

You would think so, and in RM2, you would arguably be right. In RM2, the borders between DB and armor were permeable, such that AT 1 had a baked in quickness/DB bonus and AT 20 had a baked in quickness/DB penalty.

That created some problems though: AT 1 became the god armor because it didn't just protect as armor, it also gave you DB. RMU seems to be trying to keep armor and DB more separate, and I think in many respects that is a good thing. Now AT 1 is not any harder to hit than AT 20; it is actually easier to hit. So I think it makes a bit less sense to apply DB bonuses anymore.

One potentially still problematic area is that heavier armor in RMU does not limit your DB bonus. You can be completely encumbered with a 90% load and still get your full quickness bonus to DB. This means that armor lightness isn't as attractive as it might otherwise be in enabling someone to avoid blows better. I'm not entirely sure that that is the best way to rule it, but that is currently what the rules say, I believe. If that were different-- that is, if encumbrance applied penalties to quickness DB as it used to in RM2-- then having lighter armor would be even more attractive, as it would allow you to avoid blows more easily in the manner you described in detail above.

Note however that lightness can still have important effects on RMU, even if it does not give DB bonuses. If it reduces your load limit, lighter armor will increase your maximum pace, as per the chart in post #4 here: http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=17164.0 . Lighter armor will also have less of a maneuver penalty, as well as less of a perception penalty (if on a helmet) and missile attack penalty (if on vambraces). So you do get bonuses there.

But with RAW, isn't Mithril a magical alloy?  I thought I read in one of the companions that it was, maybe Elemental Companion?  In my mind's eye, I envisioned Mithril as lighter, silver-ish in color, "sounds like rain falling when links are rubbed together such as AT 16", softer, and extremely lightweight (again paraphrasing from one of the Companions).  It's the softer and lightweight components that led me to picture Mithril as able to withstand blows and to increase DB/maneuverability and allowing it to be more effective as a shield. 

I too was under the impression that Mithril was an alloy in RMU. Though if you read Tolkien, it seems like Mithril is an ore like iron, used to make a kind of steel: the Dwarves find deposits of Mithril in Moria, for example. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

[jdale]

Encumbrance does reduce your Dodge DB, that's where your mobility comes into play, not Quickness DB. It's not relevant for everyone, since you might rely on a shield and shield skill instead of dodging, but it can be a trade-off for many characters.

[Hurin]

Encumbrance does reduce your Dodge DB, that's where your mobility comes into play, not Quickness DB. It's not relevant for everyone, since you might rely on a shield and shield skill instead of dodging, but it can be a trade-off for many characters.

Right, I had forgotten about that. So even in RMU, lighter armor does have quite a few advantages.

I'd like to try a campaign where materials bonuses to armor and shield just make armor lighter and less breakable. I'm not sure if my players will revolt though when they learn that their mithril plate doesn't have any DB bonus though!

[rdanhenry]

I too was under the impression that Mithril was an alloy in RMU. Though if you read Tolkien, it seems like Mithril is an ore like iron, used to make a kind of steel: the Dwarves find deposits of Mithril in Moria, for example. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Mithril was a metal in Middle-Earth, but in its pure state it was soft and easy to work, which is good until you want it to stand up to the rigors of combat. A mithril coat like Bilbo's/Frodo's was actually a mithril alloy.

Mithril was removed from RMU as one of the remaining Tolkienisms to pull out just to be safe. Adamantese/Adamant Steel replaces it.

[Lorgalis]

Why remove something from Tolkien and replace it with something from d&d and marvel?

[jdale]

Adamantese doesn't appear anywhere else as far as I can find.

Adamant comes out of real world legends. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adamant There's no copyright issue drawing from the same legends as other works.

[Warl]

I don't mind the adding of Adamantine.

But pulling Mithril for unheard of copywrite issues?

Mithril is so commonly used in the RPG and Comic Book areas that if Tolkien Estates were to ever try and sue it would be tossed out.

Mithril and Adamant is used in almost every fantasy RPG.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

Mithril and Adamant is used in almost every fantasy RPG.

D&D had the former renamed "mithral" for the same copyright reasons, though.

[Warl]

Mithril and Adamant is used in almost every fantasy RPG.

D&D had the former renamed "mithral" for the same copyright reasons, though.

lol I understand that, but the change of one letter, the spelling and sound is still so close, the Tolkien estate could have still made their case, if it was Winable