Topic: RMC or RMSS?

[Jengada]

I can really relate to this thread. I've played RM since 1982, going through RM1, RM2, and then shifting to RMSS when I last ran a campaign in the late 1990s. I'm now playing in a campaign using a totally different system (can we use names here? It sounds like math binder...) and as that campaign wraps up, it looks like I'll be the next GM.
I'm really stoked about this, as I get to pull out 20 years' worth of campaign material I have boxed up. And I was really stoked to discover that ICE had reincarnated and is putting out new material.
I quickly found myself facing the question of whether to use RM2, RMSS, or try RMU. I hate to say it, but the discussions on the forums quickly took RMU off the list. I think my group would disband rather than learn the whole system, and I have too many old home-brew rules (and campaign material I want to use) that I would have to port over.
So it came down to RM2 or RMSS. I've opted for RM2, even creating a new character creation process, to get the simplest start-up for my players. I had my college-age son, who plays tons or RPGs, try rolling a character in the RM2 rules, and he immediately threw up his hands over the process. I know I'd lose at least 2 players in our group with that reaction, so RM2, it is.

[Mordrig]

It is a bit of work, and if your players are willing to skip the rolls, create a character out of the computer, make or download the program.  The players then just do skills.  Alternatively, give all stats a value of 70 with only the primes getting the minimum 90's or being rolled for with no result lower than 90 accepted, or roll a d10 plus 90.  it makes things interesting.

[Cpt Tiberius J. Krik]

I remember creating characters in MERP wasn't all that bad. Is RMC similar, more involved?

[Jengada]

It is a bit of work, and if your players are willing to skip the rolls, create a character out of the computer, make or download the program.  The players then just do skills.  Alternatively, give all stats a value of 70 with only the primes getting the minimum 90's or being rolled for with no result lower than 90 accepted, or roll a d10 plus 90.  it makes things interesting.

I've ended up with a system that starts from bonuses, letting each player assign 40 points of bonus across stats  with +10s on prime reqs, and all in increments of +5. (Had you ever considered that the only stat actually used during play is CO, for HP to death? No other temp or potential stat really matters after generation.) But yes, getting to the skills as quickly as possible will really keep the players focused on characters, not tables and stats and cross-referencing.

[Mordrig]

Yes, the only time the stat roll matters after creation is at level advancement (if you use the rules for stat improvement), and then stats fall quite often in my experience.

That system you have is an interesting idea....

[Hurin]

I've been arguing that we should just skip rolling percentile stats and instead roll the stat bonuses directly for a while now. But I do understand why some people remain attached to percentile stats, even if they just add needless complication.

For my campaigns, we now just roll stat bonuses directly and skip the percentile stats. We just roll 3d10 - 15, with gives numbers in the range of -12 to +15 for stat bonuses.

We also don't use potentials. Instead, every other level, characters get a few points to boost up whatever stat bonuses they choose.

Together, eliminating the percentile stats and the hassle of calculating potentials and changing temporaries every level greatly reduces the complexity of building and levelling characters, especially in a point-buy system.

[Mordrig]

Ahhh, see I avoided that by writing a character sheet that allows me to auto calculate stat bonuses and temp stat level increases automatically.  I drive people crazy with it, but that sheet, plus the other sheets that I use allow me to automate 95% of the game making play fast and seamless.  I use rules now that I had never considered because of how slow and cumbersome the game became.  Now it is merely a click of a mouse button with all of the results displayed in front of me in less than a second.

[Mordrig]

Most of my automation tools were made for a PBeM game I was running, and occasionally dust off.  I created random encounter generators that created instant NPC's for me to throw at players with enough detail that they were believable, but not too much to make them cumbersome.  I even had a player divert from the main plot line to follow up with a random encounter because he thought "there is too much detail for this to be random"

[Hurin]

Ahhh, see I avoided that by writing a character sheet that allows me to auto calculate stat bonuses and temp stat level increases automatically.  I drive people crazy with it, but that sheet, plus the other sheets that I use allow me to automate 95% of the game making play fast and seamless.  I use rules now that I had never considered because of how slow and cumbersome the game became.  Now it is merely a click of a mouse button with all of the results displayed in front of me in less than a second.

Sounds like a useful sheet! You might want to post it on these forums (in the downloads section), for others to benefit from, if you haven't already.

[Jengada]

I
We also don't use potentials. Instead, every other level, characters get a few points to boost up whatever stat bonuses they choose.

Together, eliminating the percentile stats and the hassle of calculating potentials and changing temporaries every level greatly reduces the complexity of building and levelling characters, especially in a point-buy system.

I give the 40 bonus points at the start, and then each stat bonus has a chance to increase when the character levels up. The chance is high for a -5 (about 37%), and drops quickly as the starting bonus increases (it's 1% to go from +20 to +25.) I know it means most characters will have a lot of +20s by 10th level, but I'll deal with that as they get there. And it'll apply to enemies, too.

[Spectre771]

RMC,
  I have played Rolemaster since the first edition.  I love the system and as time goes by have increased the actual rules used, while lowering the apparent rules to the players, things function in the background using my pc to do rolls and calculations breaking everything down to a few quick rolls for the players.  They have no idea how many rules are in use, but have commented on how amazing the gaming has become.

I think this is a big key to a "successful" RM(abc) experience.  There are tons of rules/optional rules that can be employed and can seem overwhelming to new players in particular, but also to a GM.  If the GM just sets out the environment and states clearly yes you can to that, you can do this but you need that, etc, then the players don't really notice what rules are being used or how many.  The trouble is if you have a rules-lawyer in your group who wants to argue every minutiae that arises, but you are still the GM and have final say.  Listen intently then say no. LOL

[Spectre771]

Doesn't rolling on the critical hit charts become a pain during combat? How frequently are they used?

The RM critical charts are the highlight of combat.

Some could argue that they are the best part!     I love seeing what crits there are and what happens to a  "...poor fool" who has "...been reduced to a pool of jelly.  Get a spatula."

One of our GM's took the books away from us because we were reading all the crits and spoiling the surprise.

[Mordrig]

The Crits were my first joy in Rolemaster.  The details provided helped add colour to otherwise 6 hits, 10 hits, ok he dies combat.

[kwickham]

I remember creating characters in MERP wasn't all that bad. Is RMC similar, more involved?

I bought RM2 box set 30 years ago when I was playing MERP. I tried to make a character once or twice. It seems like it took 4 times longer than MERP to figure out the stats, skills, background skills & stuff, and gear. That was manually done using paper character sheets. If I tried it again I'd guess that it would be at least 2 hours for me depending on how many companion books consulted.

Nowdays I think there are spreadsheets to speed up the process.

[Cpt Tiberius J. Krik]

If RMFRP is an all in one book (I'm not really interested in other optional books right now), perhaps I need to take a look at that.

Is this the latest RMFRP offering: Here

EDIT: Scratch that. RMFRP requires about 3 or 4 more books if I want the full range of spells. Think I'll stick with RMC

[jdale]

Yes, that's the core RMFRP book and it can stand alone. It contains 9 professions, 5 races, summary stats (no descriptions) for maybe 100 creatures, spell lists up to level 10, and condensed attack tables (e.g. there is a table for one-handed edged weapons with modifiers for specific weapons). You can play with just this book. All the other books add more options but are not required.

[Cpt Tiberius J. Krik]

Yes, that's the core RMFRP book and it can stand alone. It contains 9 professions, 5 races, summary stats (no descriptions) for maybe 100 creatures, spell lists up to level 10, and condensed attack tables (e.g. there is a table for one-handed edged weapons with modifiers for specific weapons). You can play with just this book. All the other books add more options but are not required.

Oh, that changes things again.

But, 300+ skills? Part of me wants to run away, whilst the other part of me wants to jump right in!

[Cpt Tiberius J. Krik]

Both versions clock in at around £50 for the necessary books (that I want). So that doesn't help me make a decision.

Which is the easiest to play as far as understanding rules is concerned?

[Peter R]

Both versions clock in at around £50 for the necessary books (that I want). So that doesn't help me make a decision.

Which is the easiest to play as far as understanding rules is concerned?

I believe in actual play they are pretty well identical. This is even more true of you are sticking to just the core books. The most significant difference is in character generation with RMFRP having far more detailed race and skill rules. It will take longer and be more involved to create an RMFRP character than an RMC character. The most common criticism of RMFRP/RMSS is that it requires a far greater level of bookkeeping.

Even in RMC a typical character sheet can run to many pages if you give the players copies of their spell lists, a page for their skills, a page for the development points and skills being learned and so on.

[Ecthelion]

As Peter mentioned in actual play both game versions are fairly identical. From my experience character creation takes longer with RMSS/RMFRP than with RM2/RMC. I would also agree that the character record sheet will normally have more pages in RMSS/RMFRP, but the sheets I used always summarized the most important information on one page, which was then the most important one for me.

As I wrote before, if you don't want the increased level of detail that RMFRP/RMSS offers, then go for RMC. Otherwise I'd suggest to go for RMSS/RMFRP. There is no point in investing more time into character creation if you don't want the additional skills and similiar skills rules.