Author Topic: Mounted combat weapon restrictions  (Read 1827 times)

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Offline Jengada

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Mounted combat weapon restrictions
« on: January 30, 2017, 04:47:43 PM »
I have a player who wants to wield a battle-axe two-handed while mounted on a horse. I'm going to say no, but (books not at hand, and bored at work) wanted to ask if anyone knows of a RM2 restriction on what weapons can and cannot be used while riding. Or, barring outright prohibition, penalties or other modifiers when using some weapons.

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Offline Peter R

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Re: Mounted combat weapon restrictions
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2017, 02:49:07 AM »
I would not personally put a blanket ban on it. I would make the riding roll an absurd maneuver (plus any other difficulty factors) at least. It is then up to your player to deceide how much activity to put into the riding roll and how much into OB. I suspect that to maintain control of the horse would render the tactic useless.
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Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Mounted combat weapon restrictions
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2017, 03:21:36 AM »
There seems to be some historical evidence of two-handed weapons on horseback (see e.g. the article here). Therefore I personally would not put any further restriction on it. And AFAIK the rules don't specify additional restrictions compared to using one-handed weapons.

Just my 2 cents

Offline Mordrig

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Re: Mounted combat weapon restrictions
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2017, 06:21:17 AM »
I agree, there is evidence that two-handed weapons were used on horseback, some indeed were designed for horseback.  Still, they had better have a well trained horse and high riding skill. 

Offline Peter R

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Re: Mounted combat weapon restrictions
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2017, 06:37:12 AM »
I agree, there is evidence that two-handed weapons were used on horseback, some indeed were designed for horseback.  Still, they had better have a well trained horse and high riding skill.
It does not sound like the culture in Jengada's world is one in which mounted battleaxe fighting is common so finding a horse that is not going to freak out at this thing being waved around behind its head is a challenge. That is why I would put the penalty on the riding roll.

While Ecthelion is right that some cultures do have a tradition of two handed weapons from horseback what you would normally have is a co-evolution of warrior, weapon and mount. Taking a footmans weapon, the 2 handed axe, and trying to use it from a horse is unlikely to be as efficient as using a footman's weapon on foot.
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Offline Mordrig

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Re: Mounted combat weapon restrictions
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2017, 06:57:46 AM »
I agree, thus the mount better be well trained and he better be a great horseman.

Offline Hurin

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Re: Mounted combat weapon restrictions
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2017, 10:36:40 AM »
I was going to make the same point about historical precedent, but you've all made it for me.

Given that, I don't see why you shouldn't give an extra penalty for two-handed weapons on horseback. In RMU, it would be easy: the standard penalty is -75, so you could just raise it to say -100. In RM2 riding works differently, but still, I think an additional penalty would be appropriate.
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: Mounted combat weapon restrictions
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2017, 10:54:58 AM »
I wouldn't put a ban on it either.  The beauty of RM is that you can pretty much do whatever you want.... at a cost.  In this case, there are going to be hefty penalties for what her wants to do.  A 2H Battle Axe on a mount is a far cry from a Lance which was intended to be used on horseback. 

First, will the rider be using the axe 1H or 2H?  1H allows him a better grip on the reigns or pommel to hold on, but the attack is weaker.  2H is a better attack, but holding staying on the horse is a lot harder.

Second, as PeterR mentions, how much does the rider want to split the roll for riding and attacking?

Third, what's the player's intent with the type of attack?  Some battle axes have a spike on the tip which could allow the axe to be used as a makeshift lance and I would give lower penalties.  Is he doing a charging attack or just attacking while sitting on a horse.  That too is less penalizing as he's really not riding.

After the attack is made, I would have him roll Riding on the MM Table with an appropriate difficulty to see if he stays mounted after the attack.  (Then throw in a +10 Fall/Crush attack on the rider if he is unhorsed.)  There is a bonus to the attack for mounted weapons, but weigh it against the penalty for the type weapon he is using.

This is something we've always held players to in our campaigns; the type of horse.  RM2 has Lesser and Greater Warhorses.  These were specially trained for battle, used to the din and chaos of battle, trained to go charging into battle.  The typical nag, riding horse, or farm horse is not meant to do that so trying to spur one into a charge at a weapon wielding opponent may not go so well. 

If our players had a Warhorse, there was no issue doing a charge attack.  If it was any other type of horse, the player needed a Riding Skill or (I forgot the other skill, darn it) or at the very least, an Empathy roll to see if he could coax the mount into a charging attack.  Maybe that's nit-picky on our part, but there are horses specifically trained for that maneuver, and if that is the case, then there are horses that can't/don't do that maneuver as well.  Players paid extra for the Warhorse so we made their purchase mean something.

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Offline Jengada

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Re: Mounted combat weapon restrictions
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2017, 02:13:55 PM »
Thanks for the answers, all - especially the link to the historic considerations. Most horses in my campaign are trained for bow and scimitar combat, but a battle axe is another ball game. I was ready to impose some serious constraints, such as:
* increased fumble range
* increased riding difficulty when attacking with 2-handed weapon
* require the horse specifically trained for a battle axe swinging around it.
* if a fumble said the player harmed herself, then there's a good chance it's actually hitting the horse. If that happens, the horse may survive but would never let you use the axe on it again.

I also tossed the question by my mounted archery coach, who also does sword and spear on horse. She said she'd never allow it. She's also said many times that once a horse is hit near the head, even with a foam sword, it can't be retrained and will balk at the sword.

(And fwiw, the campaign culture I'm using was the basis for the ShadowWorld Nomads of the Nine Nations. Please don't hold me to what I wrote there, it was way before I sat on a horse with my bow!)
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: Mounted combat weapon restrictions
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2017, 03:30:07 PM »

* require the horse specifically trained for a battle axe swinging around it.

This is excellent.  In fact, to expand on it, you could treat this as an extra Weapon Category then alter the DP cost.  1) Next Category Cost, 2) Double the next category cost, 3) the sixth weapon category cost.  At that point, only the most dedicated fighter classes would be able to learn such a difficult skill and still have hopes of being proficient at it.


You could simply tell the player that s/he needs to develop that as a skill because it is so contrary to the "norm."

2H Battle Axe
2H Battle Axe Mounted
If discretion is the better valor and
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let's all be heroes and run away!

Offline Jengada

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Re: Mounted combat weapon restrictions
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2017, 05:02:24 PM »

* require the horse specifically trained for a battle axe swinging around it.

This is excellent.  In fact, to expand on it, you could treat this as an extra Weapon Category then alter the DP cost.  1) Next Category Cost, 2) Double the next category cost, 3) the sixth weapon category cost.  At that point, only the most dedicated fighter classes would be able to learn such a difficult skill and still have hopes of being proficient at it.


You could simply tell the player that s/he needs to develop that as a skill because it is so contrary to the "norm."

2H Battle Axe
2H Battle Axe Mounted
Or make it a weapon style, since I've integrated those from RMSS. You need to have the weapon skill and the style skill, and then riding. You use the lesser of those three as your OB. And just getting the weapon and style skills to the same bonus requires 18 DP/level for a fighter. Not many points left for other things.

If this were still something my player wanted, I would also advise her heavily on the game-time issue. I don't allow PC alchemists because they need so much lab time, and the rest of the party needs stuff to do. If you want a horse trained for this, you need at least a month of time training and working it. Hit it once, it's ruined, buy a new horse and train another month. The rest of the party is now 2 levels higher, and you? Well, you have a horse 2 levels higher, but you haven't gone up.
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: Mounted combat weapon restrictions
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2017, 09:05:45 AM »

 If you want a horse trained for this, you need at least a month of time training and working it. Hit it once, it's ruined, buy a new horse and train another month. The rest of the party is now 2 levels higher, and you? Well, you have a horse 2 levels higher, but you haven't gone up.


The workaround for us is to purchased the trained warhorse.  The cost is extremely high (relative to the gaming world) and they are difficult to find.  Military type players had easier access to the trainers, the horses were only found with high end corrals and a militaristic connection such as the training stables for the King's guard, or the king's army, so on.

It cuts down on the game time lost by doing the training by the player.
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Offline Jacinto Pat

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Re: Mounted combat weapon restrictions
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2017, 02:44:18 PM »
You could require the horse to pass a fear roll at least the first few times the axe is swung.  Then have lots of fun with modifying fumble tables to expand the range and include lots of horrible things happening to the horse.

Offline Skaran

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Re: Mounted combat weapon restrictions
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2017, 10:03:03 PM »
Always make your skills, especially weapons skills culturally appropriate. Is this the character the only one using a two handed battleaxe this way? How did he come up with the idea? Can he train his own horse to operate with this. Also as mentioned make the riding roll a much harder maneuver, if you are using a two handed weapon in combat on a horse it would be next to impossible to steer the horse without using your legs and body weight but swinging a weapon like this will shift the riders balance in unexpected ways to which the horse will attempt to respond. Finally if their is a weapon fumble have it effect the horse as well, I'd like to see the players face when he hits the horses neck with his own weapon.
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