Author Topic: Frenzy skill and Must Parry results  (Read 2133 times)

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Offline Ecthelion

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Frenzy skill and Must Parry results
« on: March 20, 2017, 03:16:08 AM »
We use Frenzy very rarely and therefore have not yet stumbled over this problem, but in our recent session a frenzied NPC received a Must Parry result. So the question came up what has priority, the parrying requirement from the critical result or the skill description, which says the character cannot parry while frenzied?

I took a look at the Rolemaster Rulings, but the page does only state that Frenzy does not prevent a character from getting stunned.

We briefly discussed the problem within our group and there were a couple of points made:
1. One question was that if the skill prohibits parrying why should you be allowed by the critical? But you may also ask the other way around, if the critical requires you to parry why should the skill description prevent you from doing so. In the end this probably is a matter of priority i.e. whether the critical description has higher priority or the skill description.
2. Any kind of ruling should ideally not only work for the Frenzy skill but also for other effects, like e.g. the Boar Strength spell (RMSS/RMFRP), which disallow parrying.
3. The point was made the a frenzied character is in such a rage that he will never parry and the suggestion was to simply ignore Must Parry for frenzied characters. But Stun results were still supposed to work as per the rules, i.e. the character would be required to parry with 50% of his OB, which would mean that a stronger blow could make a frenzied character parry. Then again IMO you could as well "allow" parrying in the case of Must Parry results. Also this reasoning for ignoring Must Parry for Frenzy might not as well apply to other can't parry effects, like Boar Strength.

Any opinions how to best handle this?

Offline jdale

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Re: Frenzy skill and Must Parry results
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2017, 08:40:11 AM »
I think the three options are:
* The character disregards the Must Parry effect. That seems overly generous. I would not grant a character immunity to a critical effect by reading between the lines. A benefit like that should be clearly stated.
* The character loses the opportunity to attack. That basically transforms Must Parry into Stunned No Parry, which seems overly hard on the frenzied character.
* The character parries despite being otherwise unable to do so.

I would go with the third option.
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Offline Jengada

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Re: Frenzy skill and Must Parry results
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2017, 12:32:44 PM »
I would rule that the frenzied and critted character is required to use a 0 OB ("must parry") but cannot allocate any OB to their DB (the frenzy skill "cannot parry.") So in essence, their OB is reduced to 0 for the # of "must parry" rounds.
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Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Frenzy skill and Must Parry results
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2017, 12:40:38 PM »
Thanks for the feedback. I'll discuss this with the others in my group. More suggestions are still welcome.

Offline Majyk

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Re: Frenzy skill and Must Parry results
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2017, 12:25:06 AM »
Yup, something like this is what we used.


I would rule that the frenzied and critted character is required to use a 0 OB ("must parry") but cannot allocate any OB to their DB (the frenzy skill "cannot parry.") So in essence, their OB is reduced to 0 for the # of "must parry" rounds.



Any result for a Parry modified the OB a character could use while Frenzied but hit with Parry crit results since the rage would let them shirk those effects.

We allowed effects as follows:
Stun No Parry = Stunned(truly stunned as per normal but no 50% Parry or 0OB Attack - think Troll in LoTR when he gets the arrow in the throat before he dies.
Stunned = -100%OB attack +NM/M Weapon mods
Must Parry = -50%OB Attack +NM/M Weapon mods

These aren't -100/-50 OB mods this is absolute percentage reduction that will actually effect combat machines...

Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Frenzy skill and Must Parry results
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2017, 05:37:25 AM »
You may just want to use the "modified frenzy" rules from RoCo. III, p29, chapter 5.5.
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.

Offline Spectre771

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Re: Frenzy skill and Must Parry results
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2017, 11:30:56 AM »
We always treated a Stun Crit as breaking the Frenzy mode.  The frenzied has received a blow to the head (or other significant damage) that has snapped them out of it.  The crit took precedence for us.  You are stunned... that's it. 

Ever watch a movie or TV show where someone goes into hysterics and is ranting and raving, then someone comes up and "slaps them out of it" or throws a bucket of cold water on them.  In some rare cases (a la Airplane), people need to line up to slap the person out of it.  ;D

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Offline Jengada

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Re: Frenzy skill and Must Parry results
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2017, 11:49:28 AM »
We always treated a Stun Crit as breaking the Frenzy mode.  The frenzied has received a blow to the head (or other significant damage) that has snapped them out of it.  The crit took precedence for us.  You are stunned... that's it. 
I was thinking about this when I wrote my post, but considered it a different, related question. I think I would be inclined to not break the frenzy automatically, but require the frenzied character to make a new frenzy roll to stay in that mode, when hit with a stun. Possibly with a penalty. Given how hard it is to break out of a frenzy willingly, I'm reluctant to let the fairly common "stun" do it automatically.
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Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Frenzy skill and Must Parry results
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2017, 02:52:45 PM »
We always treated a Stun Crit as breaking the Frenzy mode.  The frenzied has received a blow to the head (or other significant damage) that has snapped them out of it.  The crit took precedence for us.  You are stunned... that's it. 
Sounds like a feasible solution for Frenzy. But might conflict with the goal 2) above. I wonder whether a player would be happy if a Stun result would suddenly cancel the Boar Strength spell. Therefore until now I personally favor jdale's third solution "The character parries despite being otherwise unable to do so".

Offline Malim

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Re: Frenzy skill and Must Parry results
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2017, 03:02:06 PM »
For a long time stunned man was a restricted skill in our campaign!
So frenzy was like its described with theese changes: Cannot be stunned and not down to body dev negative but down to CO negative before death!
If a frenzied person get a must parry from crit, he can still parry in our house rules!
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Offline Majyk

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Re: Frenzy skill and Must Parry results
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2017, 10:48:41 PM »
If a frenzied person get a must parry from crit, he can still parry in our house rules!

I think giving any DB to a raving lunatic from Parry gives them too much more ability with Frenzy.
X2damage, +this and that, AND more DB when they're supposed to be trading that kind of defensive capability is why they wanna Frenzy in the first place, to my mind.

There ends up being a no-brainer for being in a Frenzy all the time, then.

Admittedly, we would also roll up a PC's Quickness bonus into the OB, draining their DB - only allowing Magical Armour or Magic Effects bonii to be kept.  No Shield DB, either, since the Frenzied machine is more likely to hit someone with it vs defend behind it!

If you have a PC in the party that always does this in battle vs picking his/her spots, you may have a rule that needs tweaking...

Offline Spectre771

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Re: Frenzy skill and Must Parry results
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2017, 07:12:33 AM »
We always treated a Stun Crit as breaking the Frenzy mode.  The frenzied has received a blow to the head (or other significant damage) that has snapped them out of it.  The crit took precedence for us.  You are stunned... that's it. 
I was thinking about this when I wrote my post, but considered it a different, related question. I think I would be inclined to not break the frenzy automatically, but require the frenzied character to make a new frenzy roll to stay in that mode, when hit with a stun. Possibly with a penalty. Given how hard it is to break out of a frenzy willingly, I'm reluctant to let the fairly common "stun" do it automatically.

That sounds like a very workable approach.  Stunned Maneuver is a skill that can be purchased and it's meant for exactly that situation.  If you don't want to break the frenzy, you can simply have the PC not make an attack roll that round yet still remain in frenzy.  You can attribute the lack of activity for that PC as "He's looking for a new target, or the source of that last hit that connected."  You know, he was a bit confused for a moment.



I think giving any DB to a raving lunatic from Parry gives them too much more ability with Frenzy.
X2damage, +this and that, AND more DB when they're supposed to be trading that kind of defensive capability is why they wanna Frenzy in the first place, to my mind.

There ends up being a no-brainer for being in a Frenzy all the time, then.

Agreed.  Frenzy has some great bonuses, but the PC has to accept the negatives.  It seems to give the berzerker too much advantage now if he is supposed to be at a DB disadvantage, then receives a crit that puts him at an additional disadvantage, but now he gets a higher DB instead.  I'd always take Frenzy and charge into battle hoping to get stunned so I can get a +DB
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Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Frenzy skill and Must Parry results
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2017, 08:19:21 AM »
I think giving any DB to a raving lunatic from Parry gives them too much more ability with Frenzy.
X2damage, +this and that, AND more DB when they're supposed to be trading that kind of defensive capability is why they wanna Frenzy in the first place, to my mind.
One of the players in my group also brought up this point. His suggestion was to have the parrying ability cut in half when frenzied or having Boar Strength active. A Must Parry would then render the PC able to parry with 50% of his OB, a Stunned PC would be able to parry 25%. Kind of a compromise between on the one hand taking away the ability to parry completely and treating Must Parry and Stun similar to Stun+No Parry and on the other hand simply allowing a normal parry.

Sounds like a good idea?

Offline JakeM.

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Re: Frenzy skill and Must Parry results
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2017, 05:25:26 AM »
Like above.
Frenzy is build within. Blow to the head or some other major critical snaps you out of it.
Re-roll in some borderline cases if you can stay in it?

Pretty much like Boxing or some other sports. You either can cope with the pain or you don't.
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Offline Majyk

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Re: Frenzy skill and Must Parry results
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2017, 06:14:34 PM »
I don't know Ecthelion, for such an obvious blending machine in combat, make the buggers PAY DEARLY for having that power!


No parry negotiations! All out mindless attack or nothing, babee!

Offline providence13

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Re: Frenzy skill and Must Parry results
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2017, 10:00:45 AM »
This is the way it reads to me.

For normal combat, choosing to parry is a conscious decision.
You can't choose to parry in Frenzy.
I also think the crit takes precedence, so "Must Parry", means that the opponent must parry. You don't have a choice, you are just made to do it in combat. Now you still can't allocate anything to Parry, since you are in Frenzy. So you must make a +0 Parry roll. You didn't mean to parry, you were forced to, or did it by accident. This means you can still fumble your roll, just like normal, (but you get no OB to add to DB for the parry, whereas if you weren't under "Must Parry" and weren't under Frenzy, then you could choose to add to DB - the penalty for the Stun/Must Parry).

If you get hit while under Frenzy, then you could choose to rule that you get a bonus to leave frenzy, or a penalty to stay in frenzy, which is the same thing, depending on how you read it. Frenzy is a Self Control skill so you could handle it like Meditation. While meditating, a hard strike gives a +25 to leave meditation (or a -25 to stay in Meditation, it's all how you read it).

Just a thought. YGMV
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