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Author Topic: get free from locking holds  (Read 311 times)

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Offline juza

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get free from locking holds
« on: May 21, 2017, 02:00:47 AM »
Hi folks, I have some doubts about locking holds critics:
when a player use the locking holds and rolls a critic that says that he ties the foe in a hold or something similar how can the foe gets free from the hold? What actions can he take? For how long the player can keep the hold?
Can you help me about this?
Thank you.

Offline Doridian

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Re: get free from locking holds
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2017, 08:51:58 AM »
My 2 cents on this topic: having been a "victim" of locking holds in the far past (practicing a martial art) I would say that once you are down and in a lock, you do not have any true means to free yourself. However if your foe in turn has not got anything to tie you up, the situation is a real stalemate: you both are there, nicely pinned to the ground. You could rule that after some idle time, the locked character can try to "attack" back (with a proper skill and penalties from the uncomfortable position - I would rule that a proper skill would be Locking Holds themselves, Sweep & Throws or Wrestling): if a critical is ever achieved you have been able to free yourself. As said before, just my 2 cents.

Offline Malleable

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Re: get free from locking holds
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2017, 07:51:26 AM »
My 2 cents on this topic: having been a "victim" of locking holds in the far past (practicing a martial art) I would say that once you are down and in a lock, you do not have any true means to free yourself.

I'd have to say that you ALWAYS have some way of breaking out of a hold.  But if someone has a lock on you they get a large bonus against the breakout maneuver.  And you can make a maneuver each round to improve your hold, just like your victim has a chance to break the hold.  Improving the hold would increase the bonus against the contested roll - usually strength vs strength, but Agility should play a roll if you are a martial artist.  And I'm not sure, but I would think that a locking hold would allow you to cause a break (crit) and lose the hold, or a choke hold to cause breathers to go unconscious after a number of rounds.
I'm sure the Martial Arts Companion has rules for holds and breaking out.

Mal

Offline juza

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Re: get free from locking holds
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2017, 03:27:10 AM »
Dear Malleable, if there were rules in the martial arts companion for breaking out from a locking holds I didn't need to write this post.
I think that Doridian suggestions are quite usefull.
The way someone can get free from the hold depends on how much of the body is kept in the hold
E.G.
If the locking holds critics tells that only one arm is kept in the hold I thing that the locked character can try to attack and if the attack result in a stun he can attempt to free himself.
If the lock is harder and involve all the body i think that only a locking holds or a wrestling attack can get the chance to get free. I Think to permitt this kind of attack only some rounds That the character is kept in the hold (maybe 6) the attack should have a malus of - 70 and if a C, D or E critic is delivered he has a chance to get free (30% for a C critic; 50% for a D and 70% for a E critic)
Does this sound fair?

Offline netbat

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Re: get free from locking holds
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2017, 09:55:29 PM »
Having been on the receiving end of some holds in Akido, I am not sure it is possible to get out of a proper hold without causing yourself damage. How would you differentiate between an armlock or similar martial arts hold where resisting the hold causes damage(break or torn ligaments) and a wrestling hold where strength, skill and agility can overcome it? Maybe the best way to model it is to perform an opposed maneuver with a martial arts skill(or wrestling)  against the holder's skill and taking an automatic A crit modified by the skill ranks in a style that includes proper holds(like akido).
There is no frigate like a book to take us lands away -
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Offline juza

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Re: get free from locking holds
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2017, 03:05:00 AM »
this idea that you can't get free from a locking holds without hurting yourself is very interesting. I appreciate that you (netbat)  and Doridian are bringing your personal experience, and is quite interesting that both of you agree that is impossible or very hard to get free from a locking hold. But as Malleable wrote in a game should be always a chance for the players to break the hold and I think that adding an automatic self inflicted critic is a good way to combine realism and fun. I would not seem too sadic but an A critic i think is too low, especially if the attacker rolled an D or E critic, maybe the critic the looked character should take to get out should be a degree inferior than the one that the attacker had rolled and then modifying the critic roll with the skill ranks. This should be too sadic?

Offline Malleable

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Re: get free from locking holds
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2017, 09:06:05 AM »
Yeah I looked back through MAC and couldn't find rules.  I swear I read some rules, so either in one of the companions or maybe a different game system.

To elaborate, I have studied both aikido and jujitsu. There is always a method of breaking out of a hold, but it can be very difficult depending on how good of a hold your opponent has on you.
Take for example you are face down, your opponent has your hand locking the wrist and elbow.  You are in a really, really bad position.  But if you understand how to get out, you still have a chance.  If you can roll your arm/wrist into the direction of the lock, both your elbow and wrist are no longer locked. Then you can roll out of it. 
But given that you are face down, and your opponent has a grip on your wrist and on your elbow, its going to be very hard - so large negative modifier.
The rolling out, and requires you to pull your knees up so you are no longer flat on the ground, or rolling on your side so you can bend allowing you to use the strength in your legs/back (reducing your negative modifier).

I think in Rolemaster someone makes a grapple/locking hold attack.  Either they get a hold or miss.  If you're successful in getting a hold, how well you succeed on the hold should determine the the negative modifier against your opponent attempting to break the hold.  Barely making a hit on someone sounds like a hand hold on someones arm.  Getting a crit should provide a greater modifier. 
The negative/positive modifiers on the locking holds crit table seem too small to me.  Maybe against two opponents that have skill in grappling they might be reasonable, but overall I don't think they work.
The following round after a locking hold I would say the person achieving the hold could try to maintain it and strengthen his modifier, while the one locked would try to break out.  So an opposed roll.

I think grappling and locking holds combat is basically make an attack as normal with damage and crit each round.  But apply the negative modifier to the subsequent round attacks until your opponent breaks out, or you miss.  The attacker continues to attack as long as he wants to.  The opponent has to break out or attack himself to break the hold.  This gets a little fuzzy on mechanics...

Mal


Offline netbat

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Re: get free from locking holds
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2017, 07:44:33 PM »
I don't have MAC, so maybe I am missing something but do the minuses in the grappling crit chart seem too small as well? I thought that table did a fairly good job of letting you know when you had a good hold with the stun no parry results and the -25 to -75 for a number of rounds results.
There is no frigate like a book to take us lands away -
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Offline juza

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Re: get free from locking holds
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2017, 01:38:02 AM »
Locking holds critics are quite harder then grappling critics, but let's see in concrete what locking holds critics do.
Foe example if you roll a locking hold E critic with a result of 76-80 the critic says: "your strong hold results in ripping the tendons in foe's wrist and arm. Foe's arm is useless. +8hit; stunned for 3 rounds; -40 to all actions".
I think that this is quite clear: for 3 rounds the attacked one cannot try to break free (just because I think that getting free from an hold should be considered as an attack) and then he will suffer a malus of -40  if he will try to get free from the hold.

But if the attacker rolls a B critic with the result of 41-50 there is written that you catch foe in a painful armlock +4 hits and stunned for 1 round.
what does painful lock means? It seems that should not be malus for acting, isn't it?

Or always a B critic with a roll of 96-99: "your attack pins foe with relative ease. You decide to go through foe's pocket while deciding what to do with him next. Foe is unable to defends himself". This seems to say that foe is unable to do anything, and there are no penalties for reacting, but maybe because you can't do anything. Or not?

How you would manage these two last critics results?

 

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