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Offline captain jimmy

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How overpowered is a x5ppm?
« on: September 01, 2017, 04:32:43 PM »
I play in a campaign, and one of our characters plays a High elf sorcerer (now lvl 14), who pretty much from the start has had a x5ppm. This seems to me to be massively overpowered. What do people think?
For me, it completely ruins the party balance, there is very little the rest of the party can do that he can't deal with quicker and with less risk, it feels like the rest of us are reduced to sidekicks or even spectators.

Offline MrApollinax

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Re: How overpowered is a x5ppm?
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2017, 05:58:45 PM »
That is - quite frankly - ridiculously overpowered. I understand the temptation to use multipliers to offset the low PP issue (especially in RM2) at low levels, but x5 seems way too much, and is creating an excessive PP issue now. Were I your GM, I'd arrange for the sorcerer to be robbed...and/or targeted by greedy/jealous rivals.

Offline Peter R

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Re: How overpowered is a x5ppm?
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2017, 02:44:52 AM »
I agree, I would remove it from the campaign. I would probably have the party captured. something like Lord Sleep could take care of the elf. Once the party is taken out their kit would be stolen. The spell caster who put them to sleep would be very interested in a x5ppm. Once the party recover and escape they could probably recover most of their equipment but a few obviously powerful items would be removed from the game that way.

I had the same issue but it was me with the over powered item and it did spoil the game for me as much as for the other players. It is a dilemma, do you not play your character to the best of its ability to give others a chance or do you play the character as he or she would in real life and end up making everyone else into sidekicks?
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Offline gog

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Re: How overpowered is a x5ppm?
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2017, 10:22:45 AM »
Depending on what type of item the ppm is, I'd look at going to the other end of the power scale to have it stolen. Pickpocketing children (a la Oliver Twist) steal the item, not clear when they did it, or who did it, and they have no idea what the item is. Thus it disappears and doesn't become something that is easy to track down.

Online jdale

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Re: How overpowered is a x5ppm?
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2017, 12:05:18 PM »
Another option would be to give the multiplier a secondary ability, but one which will destroy it when used (or perhaps reduces it one step, e.g. from 5x to 4x, then 4x to 3x, etc). Especially if the GM discusses the concern with the player. That puts its loss into player hands, and allows them to get something meaningful out of it when it goes, instead of simply taking it away by GM fiat.

E.g. it can be used to overload and destroy a gate or other artifact by multiplying the power present.

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: How overpowered is a x5ppm?
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2017, 12:08:30 PM »
I'd say if they were given it at the start, i.e. implying 1st level, that is incredibly overpowered assuming the other players were not provided a similarly powerful benefit and it lets the character dominate over it's environment.

At 14th level? Hard to say. Depends on the GM/players/campaign style. Odds are good though.

As others have similarly suggested, that's a highly desirable item and powerful people would be looking for it...
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Offline Malim

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Re: How overpowered is a x5ppm?
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2017, 05:52:31 AM »
X5 just lets a spell cater stay in the fight for longer.
Its not like he can cast two spells per round or does x3 dmg on firebolts etc!
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Offline MrApollinax

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Re: How overpowered is a x5ppm?
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2017, 08:21:03 AM »
Well, you're right, Malim, but it does take some of the 'resource management' out of the spellcaster's gameplan: they can fire off spells willy-nilly without worrying too much whether or not they need to preserve PPs for later. So they can happily Sleep and Vacuum low-level threats (taking other players out of the loop) and keep their poweder dry for the BBGs (again, minimising the roles of other players)

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: How overpowered is a x5ppm?
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2017, 11:02:30 AM »
X5 just lets a spell cater stay in the fight for longer.
Its not like he can cast two spells per round or does x3 dmg on firebolts etc!
That's a bit like saying; Giving a fighter x5 more hit points just lets them stay in the fight longer. It's not like they do x3 damage when they attack... etc.
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Game design priority: Fun > Balance > Realism (> = greater than).
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Offline Malim

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Re: How overpowered is a x5ppm?
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2017, 02:47:15 PM »
Fighters are in the grind! If a fighter foes down on HP and not a crit that will be a first.

But yes ofc pp management is a part of being a good spell user.

But there are other items that are way more powerfull tbh.
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Online jdale

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Re: How overpowered is a x5ppm?
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2017, 10:55:41 AM »
x5 PP can let the caster cast five times as many spells, but it could just as easily let them stay in the fight for the same amount of time as before, casting Lightning Bolts (10 PP) instead of Shock Bolts (2 PP). Depends on their level of course, but power points can be power, or endurance, or both; they give versatility. That's what it means to remove the resource management limitation, you can give everything your all instead of having to conserve.


Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: How overpowered is a x5ppm?
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2017, 08:25:29 AM »
Whilst a x5 may seem a bit powerful (especially in RMSS, less in RM2 where spellcasters just don't have enough PPs to be effective most of the time), it depends on the type of games you play. Or rather, on how long your days are, gamewise. If you have about a couple encounters and events on which to cast spells per day, a x5 is excessive. OTOH, if you play days by the hour, with spellcasters having to pretty much use spells every single hour or so, a x5 may be a necessity.

That's a bit like saying; Giving a fighter x5 more hit points just lets them stay in the fight longer. It's not like they do x3 damage when they attack... etc.
Except that a fighter may be healed after each fight, and even during the fight, whereas a spellcaster has to wait for the next day to get his PPs back. What hit points the fighter soever loses, he can get back immediately afterwards (and there are plenty of ways, all being easily found, from herbs to spells to potions to many magical items) whereas what PPs a caster soever uses, he'll have to wait for the next day to get back (and there's hardly any other way, with even magical items restoring PPs being very scarce).
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Offline providence13

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Re: How overpowered is a x5ppm?
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2017, 12:34:08 PM »
Since you are a player in the game, talk to your GM about it. Let them know how you feel.
(I wish that I'd been more restrictive on DB granting magic items in my game.)

It might be the GM is frustrated as well. It's up to your group/GM to decide if stealing/breaking/losing the Adder is fair/feasible. You might want to to gently remind them that the crit tables sometimes include clothing/items worn destruction in the description. Make a random chart based on locations PC's commonly wear items, unless it is specifically written down on their character sheet.
(I once tried to have an urchin Pick Pocket a large gem from a PC in the group. Made the roll, assuming a pouch or pocket. Character flips over their sheet to equipment and reads "Large ruby, undetermined value, strapped to my" *let's say groin area*. Whole group busted out laughing. What do you do? :)

If your group is throwing around spells willy nilly, I suggest the Spell Risk Chart. The PP Adder is really only "used" when they recover PP; generally after a sleep cycle. But it does take a high level spell to create it. But all those spells they cast, all day, add up to a "random creature", "noticed by enemy forces", "assassination attempt" , etc. Eventually, it will turn the head of something or someone sensitive to magic.

Edit: I don't like multipliers in my game. I use PP adders (+5, +10, +15, +20). I feel it's just used to compensate for PP exhaustion. I don't use normal exhaustion, just wing it after heavy exertion, (Make the Exhaustion a bonus of the OE roll to see if they get tired. You could halve the bonus after each roll..) so we don't do PP exhaustion either. Running out of PP is penalty enough!
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Offline captain jimmy

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Re: How overpowered is a x5ppm?
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2017, 04:08:01 PM »
When I joined the campaign (the others had been playing it for about 10 years at this point), I did ask about it, apparently there are strings attached. The item is wanted by a very powerful demon "who will, one day, come to get it".
That was nearly 15 years ago (play about 2-4 times per year), and nothing has happened. (And to be honest, I suspect never will.

The player exploits his x5ppm, and is effectively permanently flying and invisible, so there's pretty much zero chance of him ever being in the slightest danger.

What I've come to realise is that the group are all powergamers, focused on levelling up, getting new items and not much else (there's very little roleplaying in a session), so I'm pretty much stuck with it.

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: How overpowered is a x5ppm?
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2017, 07:25:03 PM »
The player exploits his x5ppm, and is effectively permanently flying and invisible, so there's pretty much zero chance of him ever being in the slightest danger.
That wouldn't stop intelligently played foes, especially certain types.

That said, in the end, you're either having fun or you're not.  I've bowed out of more than one friends games or declined to return as I just wasn't any more.
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Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: How overpowered is a x5ppm?
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2017, 07:38:21 AM »
Also, invisibility is overrated by us human beings, because we rely primarily on sight. Many creatures don't rely on it, many more don't only rely on it. In a fantasy setting, it's even truer as it's very dubious that undead, ethereal or artificial beings (constructs, golems, etc.) even have a notion of "sight" the way we do (i.e. not including heat vision, magical aura vision, life vision, etc.) so they would probably not even notice a target was invisible.
As Smaug reminded Bilbo, he could smell him, as well as hear him breathing, so he got a good rough idea of where the little hobbit was. If you consider the area of effect of his breath weapon, you can understand how merely "getting a rough idea" is more than enough.

A mere dog would detect the magician. Well, since he's flying as well, I guess you would need a wand-of-firebolts-mounted dog to actually be a threat, but...  ;)
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This is what I call 'fascination'. This is what describes my ideal girl."

Offline Twistor

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Re: How overpowered is a x5ppm?
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2017, 09:40:07 AM »
When I joined the campaign (the others had been playing it for about 10 years at this point), I did ask about it, apparently there are strings attached. The item is wanted by a very powerful demon "who will, one day, come to get it".
That was nearly 15 years ago (play about 2-4 times per year), and nothing has happened. (And to be honest, I suspect never will.

The player exploits his x5ppm, and is effectively permanently flying and invisible, so there's pretty much zero chance of him ever being in the slightest danger.

What I've come to realise is that the group are all powergamers, focused on levelling up, getting new items and not much else (there's very little roleplaying in a session), so I'm pretty much stuck with it.

It sounds to me that this is just how this campaign is. They want such items and they want to be overpowered.

Since RMFRPG has such high amounts of PP anyway, people in my campaigns seldomly run out of them even without multipliers or adders. But 5x multiplier would make that good supply into a nigh-infinite at low levels (when PP dev. ~ +30-60), extremely large at mid-levels (PP dev. ~ 80 - 120 or so, i.e. 8-12 lvl 10 spells) but just a great asset at high levels (PP dev. ~ +150 and counting, i.e. three lvl 50 spells per day).

In my campaigns, 5x multiplier would be an artefact-level item though.

Since there's a demon involved, they would have already sent a few of their minions after the character, encounters happening every few sessions, if not facing them in their devilry person themselves, since they have devilry stuff to do elsewhere. These minions would wreak havoc in the countryside when not chasing the characters, and after a while people would realize who's to blame (or who to call to help), as the (in)famity of the group chased by (or appearing as chasing) demons came more common knowledge. The one artefact would shape the whole campaign. The antagonist demon would likely become the boss fight of the campaign.

Powergaming would actually be the smart thing to do in such case.
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Offline Peter R

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Re: How overpowered is a x5ppm?
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2017, 03:39:21 PM »
Things are only over powered if they stick out as an anomaly in the campaign. If all the players are in the same mould then they seem to be where they want to be.

The GM could have done anything, a long time ago, if they were not happy.

In my GMing style having a huge OB as a fighter or mass PPs as a caster doesn't do you much good as I am setting the challenges to challenge the characters. I also like my action hollywood style.

I tend to send opponents at the characters in small groups but many small groups. If you think of the typical James Bond climax he would be likely to kill a guard, sneak into a corridor where he encounters a couple more, another one on the stairs, two more on a gantry, and so on. In total he may take out a dozen guards just getting to the final scene but never once faced a pitched battle. With your x5 person such tactics will eat up PPs constantly recasting invisibility and other defensive spells. Many encounters and each one slightly different, requiring different approaches is more draining than one big fight and there is no chance to regain PPs between encounters.

I recently ran a zombie apocalypse side plot for my players and no one had a single power point left but the encounter lasted literally from dusk until dawn and ended up with the players hiding in the attic waiting for day break. I think I threw every haunted house cliche at them from the moment they arrived at the location from a childs ball suddenly bouncing down the stairs to writing appearing on the walls of rooms they just left to doors slamming in abandoned parts of the house. Once night fell the dead started to rise...
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Offline providence13

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Re: How overpowered is a x5ppm?
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2017, 12:37:58 AM »
When I joined the campaign (the others had been playing it for about 10 years at this point), I did ask about it, apparently there are strings attached. The item is wanted by a very powerful demon "who will, one day, come to get it".
That was nearly 15 years ago (play about 2-4 times per year), and nothing has happened. (And to be honest, I suspect never will.
The player exploits his x5ppm, and is effectively permanently flying and invisible, so there's pretty much zero chance of him ever being in the slightest danger.
What I've come to realise is that the group are all powergamers, focused on levelling up, getting new items and not much else (there's very little roleplaying in a session), so I'm pretty much stuck with it.

Look, this isn't my purview, but it sounds like your issues are more than just a x5 Multiplier. :)
You really don't have to play in "this" game if you aren't getting what you need. Ask the GM if you are playing a Player Character, as important to telling the story as everyone else, or an NPC? Let the GM know what you need to enjoy this RPG.
This might not be the group for you. It feels like there are no other groups in your area, but I'll bet there are. If not, you can start one. GM if you want. Someone else is doing it so you could too.

This is a RMSS/FRP game, right? Walking, Flying, etc, require %Activity.
In my game, everyone has a Base Movement Rate. This is modified by Pace. Are you Running, Sprinting, Dashing..? All movement requires %Act.  Flying (per spell) is no different and actually more restrictive. My players know that if they move 100% of their allotted Move -based on the rate of their Fly spell, then that is their 100%Act for the round. No casting (10%Act for Instants and 75%Act for normal spells), no Observation or attacking, unless you want to sacrifice some of your %Act of one for the other.. ( Also, Invisibility is treated (for us) as a "soap bubble" effect. Any "violent" action has a good chance of popping the bubble. You know damn well that I'm going to ask for a Moving Maneuver if a caster is trucking along at 300 ft/rnd; yeah, that's only 20 mph, but it's wind resistance that will pop your Invis. bubble just as easily as falling off a ladder while Invis; "a violent action". Make your MM and there is no problem.)
My players bypass this by
*buying Ranks in the Acrobatics skill (SoHK pg 20) which provides a bonus to flying and levitation (not flappy flying with wings, that's under the Flying/Gliding skill), *using a Shield Spell to cut down on wind resistance (my Thomas the Tank Engine knowledge shows that streamlining can save fuel and increase speed by about 20%. This could give about a +20  bonus on a maneuver to "cut through air turbulence". Shield provides +25 DB so I'll give a +25 MM not to break Invis if they fly with a shield spell up.
*Casting Haste- which gives 200%Act; now you can Fly, cast and do other stuff..

But all of this is academic and really only for my game.. If you only play 2-4 times/year and you have fun, then keep playing. If you think you can run a better game, then it sounds like there's some time to try. :) 2-4 times/year leaves plenty of time for a new campaign..
You could start by always bringing up that pesky demon.. (Remind the GM)
"Great scott! Don't you know that not only is this a powerful Essence user before you, but he is also wanted by Netherbeings for his stolen golden demonic treasures the very knowledge of which would chill your soul, push you to the brink of insanity and curdle all of the fresh milk within 5 leagues?!! He asked for another beer! I say, we give him another beer!" Yeah, man. Ham it up at the local tavern. Be his 'demonic advocate' if you will.
But if the old hats that have been playing for 15 years don't have to make rolls to Fly while Invis and still perform X, Y and Z while the populace are comforted by their mere magical presence, then you don't either. Make that somersault while stepping out of the shower, while on horseback. If anyone asks why you shower with a horse, tell them your horsed is afraid of water, or to mind their own effing business. 
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