Topic: Castles & Crusades vs. HARP

[Crypt]

It might be cool to wear a cuir bouille, brigadine, benin, casquetel or even a 'war hat', but it would be cooler if I knew what the hell they were.

it seems you need a french translator 

- Cuir Bouilli = boiled leather
(cuir=leather, bouilli=boiled)

- Brigandine =
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigandine

- Casquetel =a light open casque without a visor or beaver



Bouille and Brigadine (without 'n') are typos, they mean nothing here. (American RPG authors which use french words in their games often make this kind of errors. I wonder why. )

[Mascodagama]

Thank you for the translations and link, very informative

It's a shame the C&C authors didn't take the same trouble...

[GoblynByte]

Thank you for the translations and link, very informative

It's a shame the C&C authors didn't take the same trouble...

True, but, to be fair, neither did the HARP authors in the core book.  I mean, they describe the armor, but not weapons.  Sure most fantasy gamers know what a bastard sword, shuriken, or pilum is, but most fantasy RPGs make this assumption way to much, I think.  Traditionally, D&D has been the only game that approaches this from an "layman's" point of view.  Others assume, often safely, that they don't need to chew up space with something that most of their clients learned when they started with D&D anyway.  On the flip side, how many veteran gamers would put up with a game describing a longsword for the 3,454th time in FRP history?

[Mascodagama]

True, but, to be fair, neither did the HARP authors in the core book.  I mean, they describe the armor, but not weapons.  Sure most fantasy gamers know what a bastard sword, shuriken, or pilum is, but most fantasy RPGs make this assumption way to much, I think.  Traditionally, D&D has been the only game that approaches this from an "layman's" point of view.  Others assume, often safely, that they don't need to chew up space with something that most of their clients learned when they started with D&D anyway.  On the flip side, how many veteran gamers would put up with a game describing a longsword for the 3,454th time in FRP history?

Fair points - of course it is a matter of subjective judgment for game authors to decide which terms can be assumed to be within gamers' general knowledge vs. those that merit an explanation.

To add to Crypt's notes above, here are a couple of links for the remaining items I mentioned in my original post:

War Hat:
http://www.metmuseum.org/TOAH/HD/bnpu/ho_04.3.228.htm

Benin:
http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/aoa/b/brass_helmet_mask_for_the_odod.aspx
http://shanigallery.com/brhelmet.html
(These are the only relevant items I've been able to turn up for 'benin'.  Neither the OED nor Webster's shed any light).

[Crypt]

just for information :

War Hat (chapel-de-fer) => "chapel" is an old french word for "chapeau" (hat) and "de fer" means "made of iron."

[frnchqrtr]

I never understood the idea that "if you loved/liked AD&D, then you'll love/like C&C."  Ummmm .. if you love/like AD&D, then why not play AD&D?  The books are still easily available, and in many cases, even cheaper than when they were new.  With that smythsewn binding, they are damned near indestructible and often still in great condition.

OTOH, if you've never played OD&D or AD&D, but want to try something that at least claims to give the same experience but is more recently in print, then I guess I can see the point there.

[Crypt]

I never understood the idea that "if you loved/liked AD&D, then you'll love/like C&C."  Ummmm .. if you love/like AD&D, then why not play AD&D?  The books are still easily available, and in many cases, even cheaper than when they were new.  With that smythsewn binding, they are damned near indestructible and often still in great condition.

correction : "If you loved/liked AD&D 1st ed when you was a student but need a lighter/simpler/faster set of rules now because of job/family/etc. Or just because you don't want to spend a lot of time for what is just a nostalgic game."

Obviously if you've never stopped DMing AD&D 1 st you won't need C&C.
But if you've left ADD1 for several years it can be a real pain i* t** a** to re-read it.
C&C can be seen as a fast coffee-break rpg and friendler way to obtain the same result.

[Mando]

AD&D had a lot of issues we never liked (racial level limits, a lot of different dice and game mechanics) and classes were really bearbones. C&C "refreshes" the whole thing and brings in "modern" mechanics and style of play, but still respects the spirit of the elder one.

[black flag]

Too hard to re-read old rules of AD&D; for me it's just nostalgia ( I really like see the old drawings...)
For C&C...it's up to You, some prefer a game, some another...for me simple: HARP is really a better game; for the reste, I'm agree with Mando

[GoblynByte]

I never understood the idea that "if you loved/liked AD&D, then you'll love/like C&C."  Ummmm .. if you love/like AD&D, then why not play AD&D?  The books are still easily available, and in many cases, even cheaper than when they were new.  With that smythsewn binding, they are damned near indestructible and often still in great condition.

OTOH, if you've never played OD&D or AD&D, but want to try something that at least claims to give the same experience but is more recently in print, then I guess I can see the point there.

What I meant by "if you loved AD&D..." is that C&C is essentially the same game with the mechanics you probably found frustrating about AD&D fixed.  So it holds that nostalgia of all the fun you used to have, but without having to put up with the nostalgia of the stuff that didn't work. 

[Alwyn]

Well All,

I bought the C&C Player's Handbook and read through it this weekend.  So far, I like what I have seen.  The system is a streamlined version of d20  that harkens back to the old days of the 1st edition.  All the original classes are back (including the Assassin and the Monk), plus versions of the classes from Unearthed Arcana are there too (the Cavalier, now called a Knight, and the Barbarian).

I think I have found a new d20 system I can actually live with, besides Conan!   C&C is simple enough to run my kids and their friends in, and after looking at it, I see very little problem with converting over all my original AD&D modules.

I am not trying to steal any of you away from HARP or RM, but C&C looks like a good system to run in as well.  I will still continue to play and run HARP (which I think is a great system), but for the younger ones, I think my son said it best: "Dad, this (C&C) one looks easier." 

So I think I will take C&C out for a spin.    

[Crypt]

I am not trying to steal any of you away from HARP or RM

You couldn't.

One of the things i've always dislike in D&D  (and C&C) is the xDy damage rolls.

This is one of the reasons i like RM/HARP. In this point of view HARP is even better than RM because there is one less random factor in damage resolution. Skills rule.

but for the younger ones

You could also try Tunnels & Trolls. I really like this one

[Alwyn]

Crypt,

I agree with you that the skill and crit system in HARP rules!  I am just trying to find an easier system for my kids and their friends, since HARP seems a little too much for them to handle right now.  Plus my group may play it when we want to revive some of the old nostalgia.

I have never played T&T.  How is the system?  What mechanics does it use?

[Alwyn]

Oh, one other thing.  The C&C Player's Handbook I got was the third printing.  I didn't notice many of the poor gramatical errors that one of the posters had mentioned.  This one seems pretty clean and clear so far.   

[Right Wing Wacko]

If you are seeking a game to "stick with" and really explore ... go with HARP.
The game is simply amazing for any number of reasons, some of which have been posted on the forums... the character options, the spell system, etc...

[Alwyn]

The problem is not really with me.  I love HARP, been playing it for two years and change now. 

It is the fact that my kid, who is 11, and his friends are a little too young to get into HARP right now and are looking for something a little more simple.

[Right Wing Wacko]

Yeah...HARP is definately above children (and some adults I know too!!) C&C would indeed seem the way to go for playin' with young'uns...

[Crypt]

I have never played T&T.  How is the system?  What mechanics does it use?

Very fun and fast, a fresh rpg despite it's 30 years old.

There is currently two official versions: 5.5 th  and  7th (30th Anniversary Edition ).
(6th was a fan made non official version)

I use the 7th edition with some parts of the 5.5th ed.
note: the 7th ed lacks a lot of the explanations, mainly about combat, which are present in 5.5.


Both are very cheap.

The 7th one is pocket size (in a metal box) and has several rules really different from the 5.5 th ed.

You can also find a pocket size version of the 5th edition from Corgi Books (UK)  (for instance on the nobleknight site.) 
(5 and 5.5 are the same. 5.5 only have a few more pages with some options and informations.)


about rules =>

You can find a very lite version of TNT 5 here:  (in fact this is the old gamebook-solitaire lite version)
http://www.freedungeons.com/rules/

some reviews:
http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/11/11474.phtml
http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/11/11764.phtml