Topic: HARP vs D&D

[Spellsinger]

I am a D&D player and started also the HARP game.

How is it compared to D&D? Could it be a nice alternation?

Are there some D&D player which started to play HARP
and even found some considerable advantages?

Personally I like the old-school feel of HARP. I dislike criticals,
and the huge amount of alternative rules in the book (even
with core rules) -
which some may use but give the personal game
a kind of unofficial thing. I also disklike - compared to
D&D - the bad artwork and lack of hardcover products.

[Cormac Doyle]

Every title is published as both Soft Cover and HArd cover ... no "lack of hardcover products" there.

There are options for dice-based damage and life-point damage ... but the impression I get is that you also dislike being given options ?

I would strongly suggest getting a couple of games as a player before making up your mind ... I'm confident that you will enjoy it a lot.

[Thom @ ICE]

I am a long-time D&D player... back to the very early days (1975) with Blackmoor as one of my first roleplaying books.  I played D&D from the original rules through Basic/Expert/Advanced, 2nd Ed, and even into d20 (3rd ed).  I never made it to 3.5 since I found HARP.  HARP offers the gaming experience I wanted without the hang-up's that D&D has (IMO).

While there are some optional rules in HARP, for me the majority of rules are standard.  Things like the alternate damage systems are not for me... of course, at the same time - I use Hack & Slash for combat. I just enjoy the more deadly combat (probably because most of my gaming is via PbP right now which is very slow moving).   

[Alwyn]

I am also a long time D&D player from way back, since 1978.  I have been playing RM since 1983.  So am going to second Chosen's opinion and IMHO, HARP has D&D beat hands down!

H&S offers a quick based, but deadly, combat alternative to HARP.  If you want a little bit less deadly combat system for HARP, that also takes damage reduction from armor into account, then you could always use Martial Law.  Martial Law combat is not as quick flowing as Hack & Slash though, and it required more rolls. 

I like the more varied damage results in ML myself, even if it takes a little longer to run combat.   

The spell system for HARP is what really sold me.   

HARP has D&D beat four ways to Sunday in this regard.  HARP has more spell using variants and options than D&D, plus the ability to scale spells.  Furthermore, HARP spell casters are more playable at lower levels than in D&D since the system is based on spell points versus x-number of spells per day.

Finally, HARP allows you to create vertually any type of character you want, unlike D&D's cookie cutter templates.   

Just my 2 cents.

[Zhaleskra]

I could be remembering incorrectly, and I thought Martial Law still used the basic: one roll, one critical method with the only change being that the ten's die determined hit location?

[Alwyn]

You are correct.  We (my group) use a second d10 role to determine location.  Our option rule to avoid confusion about what was rolled, especially if an open-ended roll should occur.   

Sorry if I confused anyone.   

[Zhaleskra]

Heh, I said "ten's" die when I meant "one's". Still don't remember if it was the result from the original position or the final one.

[Right Wing Wacko]

We play like Alwyn... adds a little more fun for the PC ...and a little more tension/anxiety

[Alwyn]

One other thing to consider if you are going to use Hack & Slash, is to use the optional rules for "Stunning Option" and for "Randomizing Criticals".  These two optional rules make the combat very interesting.   Our group used to use these until we went back to Martial Law. 

[Zhaleskra]

Mostly, it's the name that's keeping me away from Hack & Slash. A mental block against associating myself with a product whose name suggests it promotes a style of play I don't like except in small doses.

[Obadiah]

One other thing to consider if you are going to use Hack & Slash, is to use the optional rules for "Stunning Option" and for "Randomizing Criticals".  These two optional rules make the combat very interesting.   Our group used to use these until we went back to Martial Law. 

OK a stab in the dark that someone will ready and reply to this old thread.....What is Hack & Slash?

[RandalThor]

One other thing to consider if you are going to use Hack & Slash, is to use the optional rules for "Stunning Option" and for "Randomizing Criticals".  These two optional rules make the combat very interesting.   Our group used to use these until we went back to Martial Law. 

OK a stab in the dark that someone will ready and reply to this old thread.....What is Hack & Slash?

H&S was an alternate combat rules set for HARP that came out in the Harper's Bazaar, you can find it starting on page 43 of the Harper's Bazaar Annual from 2005. I quite like it, but if you are already not a fan of HARPs critical system and just want the HP system like D&D, it is probably not for you.

[Obadiah]

Thanks.

I really like a lot about HARP - most of all the character creation.  I am finding the combat system clunky though.  Old school AD&D was simple - you had a target "to hit" number.  You get it then you roll for damage.  It was fast and exciting and easy to work with. That is, the numbers were smaller to do number crunching on - eg target to hit was 17, I roll  16 +2 to hit modifier means I hit, roll a d8 for damage and add my +2 for damage; compared to I roll 79, by OB is 77 less the 20 I am using to parry, the opponent has a DB of 66 plus a parry component of 15 = 79+77-20-66-15 = (calculator comes out) 55 - I hit and do 17 hits plus 4 bleeds per round etc.)

So I am looking for ways to get the best of both worlds - combat that keep a slightly deadly edge but is much easier on the number crunching to work out results.  Any suggestions?

[Obadiah]

By the way, where can I find that annual?

[WoeRie]

I would say on eBay only.

But H&S does not make the combat any easier. Faster, as it is more deadly, but not easier.

[darb]

I would also recommend searching around for D20-fied HARP.  I find it works really well, moves things along a bit, and for all practical purposes keeps enough of the detail in the task checks (be it combat or RR or whatever) that the various modifiers show up.  Lots of folks here get really cranky about it, but for me the gain is much more than the loss. 

[Alwyn]

As an update, and if you can find copies, Tim Dugger put out another HARP combat system he called the "Condensed Combat Rules" which were in the old HARPers Bazaars numbers 11 & 12.  I actually started using this system when it came out in 2007, and still do.  They were basically a clone of the old RMX (Role Master Express) attack tables with a few mods.  This system is not too deadly, unlike Hack & Slash, but is more variable than the basic system or the tables/rules in Martial Law. 

[Obadiah]

I would also recommend searching around for D20-fied HARP.  I find it works really well, moves things along a bit, and for all practical purposes keeps enough of the detail in the task checks (be it combat or RR or whatever) that the various modifiers show up.  Lots of folks here get really cranky about it, but for me the gain is much more than the loss.

Thanks.  I found it and it looks worth the  try out.

[Bruce]

In reply to the OP: one of my recent selling points to gain players is that HARP allows you to create any kind of character without being limited to set class guidelines and not be limited to your choices each level. Or as Alwyn put it "D&D's cookie cutter templates". With all the options available between skills, stat points, talents, and Blood Magic (which can be used to mirror class special abilities from D&D), you can create just about any kind of character you can think of. The limits being balance and the GM's guidelines. I started playing D&D back in 1981 and once I got the rules down always felt that D&D's AC system was not realistic. The scaleable spell system is one of the best parts of the system mechanics and really separates HARP from a lot of other game systems. I agree that HARP blows away D&D hands down, but HARP is for gamers looking for something more in a game not something "better", because "better" is more of a personal preference than anything (IMHO).

Hack & Slash is a really great product and I used it a few times to some good success until I noticed it's somewhat minor flaws. There are discussions on here about that book and the things people do to get by the flaws. But Hack & Slash inspired me to create my own combat system based on a mesh between Hack & Slash, Rolemaster, and HARP. The Rolemaster combat system is a lot more intense and definitely slower than just about any other game system out there. But IMHO, it is the best combat system out there. The tables I designed use a separate table for each attack type and there are 5 columns to represent the 5 attack sizes. But they have listings for crits where you roll separately for each crit and the system uses the crit charts from Rolemaster. So far the playtesting I've done with these charts have received very positive feedback with a few gripes about it being a little slower because of having to make 2 rolls. But in the end it gives a better balance than HARP does with it's core combat system between the crit sizes and makes it less lethal at lower numbers but more lethal at higher numbers primarily because of the crits.