Topic: More DPs at higher levels

[Arioch]

Sorry if this has been discussed before (I'm almost sure, but I couldn't find the right topic).
As characters grows up to higer levels they need more and more XPs to advance but their DPs pool remain more or less the same. In addition, skills at higher levels also advance more slowly, so a player may have to gain 50000xps to gain a new level just to have a +1 to his total skill bonuses...
Do you think it's a good idea to give a little more DPs to PCs after a certain level (something like +5 DPs after level 10, +10 after level 15 and +15 after level 20)?

[Dark Schneider]

Not, I think is the natural way to learn, at first you learn rapidly, but then slower, and at some point it is very hard to improve your skills.

You can use 2 options:

1) Use potential rolls to determine DPs: this makes easier the character creation because you have the same DPs for all levels, it requires much less keepbooking, I really prefer the simplicity and less working.

2) Allow to buy talents: we use the rules that you can buy a talent that cost the same o less points than your own level, limited to 1 talent per level as maximum. This allows to higher level characters buy better talents. Is GM work to decide talents allowed to buy.
This can aid to high level characters to begin an 'epic character' (increase their PPs, OBs, spell duration, etc.).
Too, remember to revise some talents, for example I revised the HPs, they gives you originally 1-2-4-6 HP per rank (the minor, lesser...), I modified them to 1-2-3-4 per rank looking at their cost.

[Arioch]

Not, I think is the natural way to learn, at first you learn rapidly, but then slower, and at some point it is very hard to improve your skills.

Yes, I find it "realistic" too, but I just want to make levelling more rewarding for higher level PCs someway...

1) Use potential rolls to determine DPs: this makes easier the character creation because you have the same DPs for all levels, it requires much less keepbooking, I really prefer the simplicity and less working.

I give a fixed amount of DPs each level, for the same reasons 

2) Allow to buy talents: we use the rules that you can buy a talent that cost the same o less points than your own level, limited to 1 talent per level as maximum. This allows to higher level characters buy better talents. Is GM work to decide talents allowed to buy.
This can aid to high level characters to begin an 'epic character' (increase their PPs, OBs, spell duration, etc.).
Too, remember to revise some talents, for example I revised the HPs, they gives you originally 1-2-4-6 HP per rank (the minor, lesser...), I modified them to 1-2-3-4 per rank looking at their cost.

This could be an idea, but I don't like very much the concept... I will think about it

[bottg]

In my experience, what tends to happen is that higher level characters start expanding the range of skills they have. 
You are right in that a 23rd lvl fighter going to 24 would spend xx DPs to only gain +1 (books not to hand!), so as well as or instead, many choose another weapon to get +10 in, or riding, or herb lore, or ...........

[lorenen]

i don't like the idee of giving more DP, i would rather make the character find very useful MORE skills since the begining of the game. If you (maybe using Martial Arts Companion) make the use of different weapon very useful since the begining you put the PC in the situation of developing more than one melee weapon and at least one missile. These avoid the issue of having them reach the "+1 per rank" situation too early!! in real world every fighter was able to fight with many kind of weapons, but in rolemaster PC tend to focus only on one!!
For the spell user the problem its even less present, the spells are too many that they always have something to learn, even if they are 30? lv

[Arioch]

For the spell user the problem its even less present, the spells are too many that they always have something to learn, even if they are 30? lv

That's absolutely true! And for semis it's even better! 

In the end I didn't do any change and just accepted the diminishing return.

[Balhirath]

The greatest problem is that the players feel that advancing a level is rather useless, since the character dont really get better.
This is mostly arms-users, since spell users always have spells to spend point on.
However there are ways to make arms-users happy too:
Mutiple Attack Proficiency (From companion 5) is one way to do this, though you might want to disallow it for two weapon combat. Also please take a look at the fighters in the party and calcutale their OB and number of attacks before you allow it. A fighter with two-weapon combat using MAP and having the Trained Regulat footman BG (one extra MA S&W rank 1 attack/round) can easily make 5 attacks per round. Haste him and you get 10 attacks per round.

Another way of making players feel that they are getting better is by Roleplay.I usually say that the OB is the ability to hit the opponent, while the number of ranks in a weapon tells how good the persons technique with the weapon is.
Since many fighters stop getting more ranks when they reach 30 ranks, a fighter with 40 ranks in sword ought to be Famous for his masterfull swordhandling. There will be people traveling from far away to learn a trick or two from the master. (The Martial Arts companion have many good ideas for this in regards to martial arts and there are no reason not to make these work for other weapon skills as well)

In general, if you make those ranks count for something, be that MAP, fame or something else, players WILL fell that they get something for the DP that they put into the skills.
   

[Grinnen Baeritt]

Whilst I agree that the XP to DP expenditure seems excessive at high levels it is well balanced and realistic.

The higher levels is where the non-spell user expend their DP's to learn complementry skills (Combat Manuevers and Special Attacks)... however a direct increase in DP will still favour the spell using classes.

I personally like the idea of training to improve stats past their potientals.. especially for higher level characters, this has the effect of increasing stats, and more importantly the stat bonuses. This I allow as part of the normal stat gain roll, however, the rationale could be made for DP spent dedicating yourself to further improvement...

This option is already in the rules anyway. 8DP for a additional Stat gain roll. However, at high levels most characters will have maxed out. (usually by 5-7th level)

I allow a system which allows the increase of stats past their potiental (effectively increaseing the potiental).

This relates the Current/Potiental stat to the results of the stat gain dice but only when the results are doubles. (Normally you add the total with results of 5,5.. 6,6....7,7 and add them to the current...up to the maximum potiental).

I allow this potiental to be increased slightly if the number rolled (a double ie. 66,77,88,99,100) is equal or higher than 10 less than the potiental. The actual amount the Potiental is increased by is based on the following formula:

(Stat Gain dice result/2)+2 -(potiental/10 round down) = increase in potiental.

Any result of 00, will result in at least a 1 point increase regardless of the Potiental.

i.e. a potiental of 75, can be increased with rolls of 6+6 (1pt), 7+7(2pts), 8+8(3pts), 9+9(4pts) and 10+10(5pts)

e.g. a character  with a current of 75 and a potiental of 90, rolls an 8+8. This automatically increases the current to 75+10 = 85. It also increases the potiental to 91.

This could be expanded by decreasing the cost for additional rolls made when the Current = Potiental.

It is obviously a risky proposition and unlikely to gain automatic success. I'd say a character could only make one such attempt per stat per level increase. (You could also bias the DP cost for certain stats and also decreasing the costs for Arms users and increasing them for Pure Spell Users).

[Joshua24601]

Another thing to note.. at higher levels characters are fighting higher level bad guys, solving more important puzzles and generally gain more experience per session.

Thus the expanding XP gap between levels isn't as big a deal.

-Josh

[Arioch]

Actually, as your character increases in level, he gain less xp IMHO: more and more actions become routine (half xp); lower level spells give no xp; high level enemies and spells gives less xp than before (because the xp they give are based also on your character level), etc...

[Joshua24601]

Well the assumption is that the GM will be tossing higher and higher level guys at you to keep things challenging. 
Yes... some things will become routine, but new things will become available (though I'll admit, less and less new things become available the higher levels you go up.)

Spells and resistance rolls, go up at a constant rate, but hits and OB's don't.  Because of diminishing returns on skill ranks, it's much easier for a level 21 fighter to defeat level 31 fighter then it is for a level 1 fighter defeat a level 11 fighter.

In any case, in my games we award a pretty large percentage of XP for role-play, goal achievement, and other 'bonus' things (I highly recommend checking out this thread http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=4695.0)... so keeping up with level advancement isn't too much of a problem.

[Fidoric]

Rather than giving lots of bonus XP, I prefer not to use them and too grant levels whenever it fells right according to the story progression. Not a scientific way to do, but one which emphasize roleplaying and diversity in character development. Thus a character will improve if he contribute to the story without the need for being "Xp-customized" (don't know if I'm clear  )
The goal system used in Harp is also neat as it grant XP when fulfilling significant goals.

[mocking bird]

Spells and resistance rolls, go up at a constant rate, but hits and OB's don't.  Because of diminishing returns on skill ranks, it's much easier for a level 21 fighter to defeat level 31 fighter then it is for a level 1 fighter defeat a level 11 fighter.

Which is why your 25th level spell user is much more excited about learning a new spell than the fighter/thief/rogue picking up ranks in cooking, needlepoint and elvish folk tunes.

[Urbannen]

Not that I've played up to 25th level before, but don't spellcasters also have a problem of diminishing returns at higher levels? 

The 21st to 24th, 26th to 29th, and 31st to 49th skill ranks in a spell list yield no new spells learned. 

The DPs spent at those levels give a +1 to skill in the list, but no new effects learned. 

[mocking bird]

Kind of.  Yes they do have 'blank ranks' however they know that after four ranks - bam! - cool spell.  The fighter knows that his 31st through 100th rank in a weapon gives him the exact same thing - +.5 OB.  So a pure spends 15 dp's for a spell - perhaps in 3 levels.  A fighter gets +7.5 OB over 15 levels or +3 with 15 dp's over 3 levels.

[Fidoric]

May be if your fighters get frustrated, you could use the combat options from Harp, giving new combat options when reaching 20, 40 and 60 ranks in any given weapon.

[Arioch]

That's a good idea, giving a reason to develop a weapon beyond the 20th rank

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

That's a good idea, giving a reason to develop a weapon beyond the 20th rank

Wait until you see the combat style rules.... 

[Arioch]

That's a good idea, giving a reason to develop a weapon beyond the 20th rank

Wait until you see the combat style rules.... 

You certainly know how to create hype! 

[Fidoric]

And maybe we can rest easier with just a little glimpse of what you are speaking about Rasyr