Topic: New Chi power

[Arioch]

One of my players has a samurai-like character with the Chi-master TP and a couple of chi-powers from the MAC and he came up with an idea about a new power he would like to develop. Basically the new power would let the character to sacrifice his own life-force to unleash a punishing blow against his unworthy enemies...
I like the concept becasue it fits the character very well but, unfortunately, I have no idea on how to put it in game terms 
Should I use hit-points to represent the life-force of the character, or is better to use Constitution? And what should the power do? Give a bonus to hit? Or multiply the damage done? Extra crit? 

Any idea?

[pastaav]

I would not allow concussion hits as source for this. Concussion hits are too easy to spare. I would in my game go for "your lifeforce can sustain that you use the ability once every week. If use it more often you will probably injure yourself(in some unspecified way)" because consitution loss and similar are not really worth the needed book keeping.

Unbalancing criticals or martial arts sweeps criticals based on the same critical roll would perhaps be an idea for the effect. Multiplied damage is also an working idea. Extra chance to hit is IMO rather boring stylewise since it does not mean your special attack differ from your normal attack.

[vroomfogle]

I agree with pastaav, use a time limitation on it, even 1x/2 weeks or month depending on the power of it.   

To simulate the lifeforce aspect of it sock 'em with a -10 (or -20) penalty after using the power.   The penalty lasts a few hours, or perhaps a day, as the character recovers.

[Joshua24601]

You could use concussion hits, you'd just have to impose a hefty number... and it should be a percentage, not a flat number.

Every time he uses his 'super strike' he loses 25% of his overall (not current) concussion hits.  This would have the effect of not only making him more easy to knock out in battle, but also giving him a temporary -10 to all actions (due to damage) as suggested by Vroomfogle.

Further, you could also use a self discipline skill to 'control' the power drain.  Something like: when the PC wants to use his super strike he rolls, using this skill's bonus and 'desire' modifiers like adrenal maneuvers.  You could make it a simple success or failure using the static maneuver table, or more dynamic and use a column from the Movement Manuver Table T-4.1, perhaps VERY HARD, using this table could be used to reduce the damage taken from the super-strike.. Total falure (on either table) could result in no bonus to damage, and still the loss of life-force.
If you use the skill to reduce the damage you might want to up the 'baseline' damage to 50% or something like that.. so devloping the skill would be a priority using a 'super strike'.. there should also be a minimum damage taken, so even a PC with tons of ranks in the skill can't 'super strike' without losing life.

If you want to limit the uses per month without doing something so contrived as 'twice per month' you could track the 'life drain' concussion hits separately from regular hits.  These hits might recover at 1/10 or 1/100 the normal rate (or somewhere in between).. this would make it so the PC could push himself and strike a number of times in a battle, but then be weak for months; or focus on recovery between missions and get to strike more often; and basically make the decision whether or not to strike a 'do I want to be weakened for a long time?' question. 
If you go this route, concussion hits lost from 'super strike' shouldn't be heal-able via normal spell/herb means.  You might allow some spells, like the ones that restore lost Co points to effect the hits... or create some spells/herbs.  You could also use 'meditation' to double to rate of hit recovery during rest, or create a similar 'refocus life force' skill.

------------------------------

Finally Damage...
Depending on how nasty you want to make the attack and the cost to the PC of preforming the attack you could go a number of ways.
-Add a bonus to the attack roll...
-Doubling the concussion hits and or crits..
-Giving the crit roll a +20 or more to ensure it's a nastier hit.
-Divide the crit roll by 2, then add 50. (forces the crit roll to be 51-100, but keeps 100's more unlikely then adding a number)
-My personal favorite is to make the crit a slaying, holy, or other 'type' of crit.

The neat thing about making it a slaying or holy crit, is that the PC now has a, albeit expensive, method of hurting certain, normally immune from damage, creatures.

[yammahoper]

I would use Co.

1pt of Co, an A impact/holy/whatever crit.
2pts of Co, a B crit.
Etc.

Additioanlly, cost of Co could be assigned for whatever the GM is willing to allow (increased hits, bleeders, etc).

Co returns with rest (1 pt a day typically).  However, the 69 to 31 range of Co allows lots of points to use with no real penalty other than being weaker/less hits for a longer period.

So you might want to have the points applied as stat mod penalties to random stats, a backlash effect of the power.  It can affect the memory, the bodies health, physical strenth, give you the shakes (Ag or Re or Co or Sd).  This would allow you to remove the upper levels in stats across the board and have much better impact on the player and his PC.  I would still use Co recovery times as guidelines for removal of assigned penalties.  Of course, a special failure could assign a bigger penalty or a penalty that will not recover without special skills, items, magic, etc.

lynn

[markc]

 At first I thought of using Co as above but then a thought hit me from another game. The game is Mage, and you can damage youself to gain power but the damage is not healable by magic only rest. I would also use the hit% idea from above to gain a specific ability or power.
 
 As to the power what is the players invisonment of the ability? A lightning like attack like in Return of the Jedi? Or a quick strike like in the movies where they speed up the film of the attacker? Or a quick unnerving stare that rattles the opponet and lets the power user make a more effective attack? Would a power striking skill be better than a power? Or any of the other adrenal type skills in RMSS/FRP? A last note is it really depends on what powers you use in the game and you game's power level, as if you use some RM2 powers from the Orien Comp it could be week or if you use all of the abilities from MAC it might be too strong.
MDC   

[Arioch]

A last note is it really depends on what powers you use in the game and you game's power level, as if you use some RM2 powers from the Orien Comp it could be week or if you use all of the abilities from MAC it might be too strong.
MDC   

I use all Chi powers from the MAC (but I've made a Talent called "Living Legend" that allows you to develop fantastic powers, otherwise characters are limited to core and heroic levels). I don't own the Oriental Companion, but since it has been recently re-released as a pdf I could give it a try...

From the description of my player the power would be a Final attack with capital "F" , something to use as last resort which have a high chance of killing the character along with his enemies ("... Prepare to meet your final doom! I'll bring you to the underworld with me!" ).

If use it more often you will probably injure yourself(in some unspecified way)" because consitution loss and similar are not really worth the needed book keeping.

I don't like very much Co loss too, because of the book keeping, I think I'll go for hit loss plus a fixed penalty. Probably 25% of total hits (which cannot be healed by magic) and a -20 modifier to all actions (character recovers a -10 each day).
The attack could add a Holy crit and let the player adjust the result of the critical by +/-1 per rank in the skill (as with Ambush).
If the character obtain a Near Succes with his manuever the power still work but the hit loss and the penalties are doubled (50% and -40). If he obtain a Partial Succes both are tripled. In case of Failure the character dies (no RR) and with an Absolute Failure or less the character soul is destroyed...

What do you think? Too powerful?

[mocking bird]

There are a couple different options with some precedent in some spell lists.

One could be the ability to cause slaying crits to your target, or a lesser degree depending on sucess of the roll, but that means that the target also gets slaying crits on you - perhaps due to your weakened state.

If you want it as a 'final strike' then convert all reamining hits to an OB bonus with perhaps some crit mod potential (fraction of hits) or up the critical to slaying.  Note that converting all hits to this will in effect kill the character and might cause problems later for lifegiving or not work for lifekeeping.

I don't see a problem really with using 'hits for crits'.  You could mandate a minimum - 25% of max, not left for example - to make limit its use or even add that this damage has to heal normally rather than by magic. 

I would however limit its power level.  Lumping an increased or extra crit, crit mod and a concussion multiplier all in one seems very very powerful for a skill as comparable spells are quite high for only one of those effects.

[Joshua24601]

From the description of my player the power would be a Final attack with capital "F" , something to use as last resort which have a high chance of killing the character along with his enemies ("... Prepare to meet your final doom! I'll bring you to the underworld with me!" )...
...If the character obtain a Near Succes with his manuever the power still work but the hit loss and the penalties are doubled (50% and -40). If he obtain a Partial Succes both are tripled. In case of Failure the character dies (no RR) and with an Absolute Failure or less the character soul is destroyed...

I'm not sure what your PC wants out of this... But to me it seems underpowered for it's price.  Your PC is going to invest DP's.. possibly a lot over the course of a number of levels.  And how many times will he use this power?  Especially if a failure results in Death?  Until he gets 5 ranks or so into the power he'll probably be looking at death as the likely outcome of any attempt.. and even after it will be reasonably likely.
To me, personally, the DP to Utility ratio is really poor... and probably more suited to a Talent with a stat based roll, then a skill.

I'd make it so a failure results in being knocked out.  (still not healable via magic.. other PC's would have to carry his unconscious body away after the end of the battle, could even knock him down to slightly above death so it would take a while to recover all the concussion hits.)  The idea being that failure will disable the PC.. shut the story progress down for a while... severely inconvenience his allies and so on..  Still is a major burden.. just the player needn't roll up another character.

Another option that could be interesting: the PC could be allowed to increase his OB (or perhaps crit roll) by devoting more life into the attack.  For every concussion hit he sacrifices (or possibly % rather then number) he adds 1 to his OB, but SUBTRACTS 1 from his 'damage reducing' skill roll.  Sacrificing more like makes you do more damage, but its more likely you'll take extra damage, get knocked out, or even die.
I really like this because it's dramatically valuable..
If your PC is in a do-or-die situation and throws his "Final Strike".. you want the PC to hit and at least really hurt the opponent if not kill him, especially if the PC dies in the process.  Nothing would be sadder then having a PC sacrifice himself throwing what's supposed to be the final punch of death... only to have him roll poorly and miss entirely.

[markc]

 A side thought: I have big problems with final strike type powers as how do you train for something like that?

 Power Thoughts:
  I do think it is a little week for a final strike type power. I have been playing the apocalise version of Deadlands [I can not remember the name right now] and in one of the expansion books they have a cool final strike power. I remember the class now it should be Doomsayers. But as you can guess it is like a nuke going off and affects a big area around you. I do not rememer what else it can do as I was playing in a 1-day game and I did not take that power.

 Other places to look might be a Star Wars game, I will take a look at Gurps Martial Arts book but I do not think they have something like that, redoing a RM spell is a good idea, maybe adapt a PSI power, look at any diety rules you have, and maybe a super heros game ability. 

MDC

[Arioch]

I'm not sure what your PC wants out of this... But to me it seems underpowered for it's price.  Your PC is going to invest DP's.. possibly a lot over the course of a number of levels.  And how many times will he use this power?  Especially if a failure results in Death?  Until he gets 5 ranks or so into the power he'll probably be looking at death as the likely outcome of any attempt.. and even after it will be reasonably likely.

A side thought: I have big problems with final strike type powers as how do you train for something like that?

Both are good points and give me an idea: instead of creating a new power for the attack, I could make it a "specialized use" of another power he's already skilled with. To activate the attack he would have to succed in a manuever using the existing power skill bonus with a penalty to the roll.

I do think it is a little week for a final strike type power. I have been playing the apocalise version of Deadlands [I can not remember the name right now] and in one of the expansion books they have a cool final strike power. I remember the class now it should be Doomsayers. But as you can guess it is like a nuke going off and affects a big area around you.

Making it an area-attack is an interesting idea: it could be similar to the Holy Martyr spell (Paladin Base)...

[markc]

Arioch,
 1) I like the idea of increasing another power to reflect the ability.

 2) I do not kow if you have any White Wolf syuff but in the new version they have combat styles and the pole arm styles highest ability lets you attack all people in a 3' radius [I think I am quoting from memory]. This includes friendlies so it can be bad.

 Also the Combat Comp is comming out this year and thier might be some stuff in there you could use.

MDC

[Balhirath]

One of my players has a samurai-like character with the Chi-master TP and a couple of chi-powers from the MAC and he came up with an idea about a new power he would like to develop. Basically the new power would let the character to sacrifice his own life-force to unleash a punishing blow against his unworthy enemies...
I like the concept becasue it fits the character very well but, unfortunately, I have no idea on how to put it in game terms 
Should I use hit-points to represent the life-force of the character, or is better to use Constitution? And what should the power do? Give a bonus to hit? Or multiply the damage done? Extra crit? 

Any idea?

Hmm how about this:
Use the Slaying Strike Chi-power from Oriental compaion and add that using it will cost him 25% of his total hitpoints. These points cannot be healed magically.