Author Topic: Additional cost for Spell Mastery  (Read 12943 times)

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Offline Arioch

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Additional cost for Spell Mastery
« on: May 11, 2008, 03:40:31 PM »
I'm thinking of adding an extra cost in PPs for spell modified with the Spell Mastery skill, like a +X PPs for each -10 taken on the skill. This mainly to avoid having characters who use the skill to replicate higher level effects paying less PPs (like casting Firebolt with double range instead of Firebolt II), but also because IMHO it makes sense, as you are putting more power in the spell you're casting when you use this skill.
Any idea?
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Offline Grinnen Baeritt

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Re: Additional cost for Spell Mastery
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2008, 05:24:48 PM »
I disagree. Mainly because of the extra investment in DP that the character has made in purchasing the skill but also because the extra risks of gaining those benefits.

I suppose that a better rationale is that, by using spell mastery, the caster is simply being more efficent with the use of the power used achieving better results.

An anology is by shutting the windows and turning off the air conditioning you improve the fuel consumption of a car... though as with real life.. you might get hot, uncomfortable or even burned.. ;).

I seem to remember a rule somewhere (perhaps RM2) where additional PP could be expended to boost the damage of elemental spells, but I seem to remember that your level had to exceed the spell level by a certain amount..

Offline markc

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Re: Additional cost for Spell Mastery
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2008, 10:23:03 PM »
 I do like it. Since the caster does not kow the spell and it is of a higher level [knowledge] then it should take more effert and magical power to get the same effect.

I like it a lot. If you get some rules writen up submit them to the GuildCompanion.com for thier monthly newsletter. I think it could easily find a home in many games.

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Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Additional cost for Spell Mastery
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2008, 11:11:26 PM »
I'm thinking of adding an extra cost in PPs for spell modified with the Spell Mastery skill, like a +X PPs for each -10 taken on the skill. This mainly to avoid having characters who use the skill to replicate higher level effects paying less PPs (like casting Firebolt with double range instead of Firebolt II), but also because IMHO it makes sense, as you are putting more power in the spell you're casting when you use this skill.
Any idea?

1) You should always require increased PP if they are upping the power of the spell. Otherwise, they are essentially doing an end-run around the PP costs.

2) If they are trying to "spell Master" a spell into something like a higher level spell, then they are casting the higher level spell, and treat it as such. Spell Mastery should never (IMO) allow a caster to replicate the effects of higher level spells (the stopping point should be the half-way point between the two).


Offline Grinnen Baeritt

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Re: Additional cost for Spell Mastery
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2008, 02:27:40 AM »
Well, if that is the case then decrease the cost of developing the skill, or widen the parameters (making Spell mastery affect ALL spells used).

I suppose it all depends on what you believe the spell system is in rolemaster.

If it were a simpler system, like AD&D, or another system where specific spells are memorised from a spell book and strictly leveled, I'd agree that what can be achieved is unbalancing...

However, I believe that Rolemaster assumes the use of related spell lists, which to me, means that it is a gradual progression in power, rather than just a collection of discrete spells. Spell Mastery is the ability to "blur the edges" and customise spells by specialisation (being in depth knowledge). This specialisation already comes at a price both in game terms (higher DP expenditure) and risk.

I'd probably just allow any mage to have the option to expend additional PP to boost a spell.... but wait, isn't that exactly what HARP does...?




Offline Joshua24601

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Re: Additional cost for Spell Mastery
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2008, 06:06:52 AM »
I've gotta fall on the side of additional power points... 
More effect means more fuel must be burned... further, IMO the spells on the list are the refined 'near-perfect' version of that spell's casting... it represents years of refinement in the art of casting the spell.. to change a spell, on the fly, should be hard (skill roll), dangerous (failure danger), and less efficient (more PP's).  If a PC wants a spell that's anywhere near as safe and efficient as a regular spell then he should spend months or years researching and refining it.

I've one exception to the above... I feel a spell mastery roll could potentially be to reduce the PP cost of a spell, making it more efficient... however due to the inherent inefficiency of tweaking a spell on the fly, this would probably have much more diminished returns then other spell mastery tweaks (-20 for -1 PP or something like that).

As far a how many PP's to make the spell cost.. I'd probably favor 1 extra PP per -10 from spell mastery (though making a single spell effect multiple targets could multiply the cost... logically), and if you want to get really wild, for every 20 the spell mastery roll is made by it could reduce that extra cost by 1.  (ie: Spell mastery roll is at -30... +3 PP's, PC rolls his mastery attempt and succeeds with a margin of 55, meaning his spell only costs 1 PP more then normal)

----------------------------

Diverging question... how do you all handle spell mastery rolls?
I'm not sure if this is the norm, but the way I handle it is in 2 steps. 
1st the spell mastery skill is rolled with the minuses.  This determines whether or not the spell is altered from it's normal state.
2nd Whether or not the spell is altered the spell attempt is still made.. a SCSM is rolled with the same modifiers as the spell mastery roll.
The preparation time is also significantly increased, double the normal prep time the PC chooses (instants become 1 round or prep), plus 1 additional round per major alteration (ie: changing the target number, size of effect and so on...)

I've done it 2 ways... I've had the prep time completed, then the spell mastery and SCSM is rolled, or I've done the Spell mastery on the first round of prep.  Doing the spell mastery roll at the beginning can be nice because it allows fantastic rolls to reduce the prep time, or almost rolls to increase it... this can be rolled hidden, or by a PC who can role-play his ignorance... a PC who notices his spell mastery has totally failed (power awareness or another skill) can abort preparation.
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Offline Arioch

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Re: Additional cost for Spell Mastery
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2008, 07:18:27 AM »
I disagree. Mainly because of the extra investment in DP that the character has made in purchasing the skill but also because the extra risks of gaining those benefits.

Spell Mastery is already a very powerful skill (probably the most powerful/useful skill in RM), and creative players can do a lot of things with it.
I know it costs a lot, but I think that even adding a little PPs extra cost to it it will still retain all of its benefits and players will not sop buying ranks in it.

2) If they are trying to "spell Master" a spell into something like a higher level spell, then they are casting the higher level spell, and treat it as such. Spell Mastery should never (IMO) allow a caster to replicate the effects of higher level spells (the stopping point should be the half-way point between the two).

That's a good idea, but what if a mage is trying to spell master a spell to emulate the effects of one he still doesn't know? I think he should be able to do it, but not for free

Diverging question... how do you all handle spell mastery rolls?

Firse make the spell casting roll, if the spell is cast you make the spell mastery roll. If you fail this, the spell fails, and all spell mastery mods are added to your fumble roll
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Offline Grinnen Baeritt

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Re: Additional cost for Spell Mastery
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2008, 07:21:28 AM »
I sort of treat the use of a spell mastery check as part of the original casting of the spell.

I do it before the other spell is cast, with only the original spell-mastery roll is modified with the modifiers.

Regardless of the result of the Spell mastery check I then adjust the subsequent Spell casting Roll (I always assume one is required if spell mastery is used and 111+ isn't rolled) by the modifiers on the table in addition to any normal modifiers for casting the spell.

Therefore, with simply using Spell Mastery, and NOT attempting to change the nature of the spell, then certain activities can be made easier...for example casting a spell with slightly less preperation time i.e. a result of 111, gives +20 to the subsequent spell casting check.

As I've said before, serious thought needs to be put towards the actual effect on the DP required to purchase the skill before any further penalties are applied to it's use.


Offline Arioch

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Re: Additional cost for Spell Mastery
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2008, 07:48:27 AM »
As I've said before, serious thought needs to be put towards the actual effect on the DP required to purchase the skill before any further penalties are applied to it's use.

Ok, but SM is a skill that basically let you do anything you want with your spells. Think an effect loosely related to the spell you're casting apply the right modifier and roll. IMHO as it's now is too cheap.  :)
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Offline Dark Schneider

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Re: Additional cost for Spell Mastery
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2008, 09:12:34 AM »
I think is not necessary, there are other things that are limiting the use:

1) You need a SCSM when you use 'spell mastery' instead automatic casting, remember that the subsequent maneuver modifier is used in that SCSM roll.
2) Increase the modifiers, we use a -20 per X instead -10 per X as the original, so double is -20, triple is -40, etc.

Offline Arioch

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Re: Additional cost for Spell Mastery
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2008, 09:22:39 AM »
2) Increase the modifiers, we use a -20 per X instead -10 per X as the original, so double is -20, triple is -40, etc.

I've already done this, standard modifiers are ridiculously low IMHO  ;D

I think I'll go for something like +1 PP spent for each "level" of spell mastery use. For example, a Firebolt with double target, double damage will cost 2 extra PPs: +1PP for the extra damage; +1PP for the extra target.
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Offline mocking bird

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Re: Additional cost for Spell Mastery
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2008, 09:31:49 AM »
There is also a huge difference between base Spell Mastery and SoHK Spell Mastery - the latter being much more powerful.

We made it easy, and I think it is a variant on an RM2 Companion - don't ask which - double the power, double the power points so x2 damage = x2 PP, x2 damage + x2 range = x3 PP cost.  We keep the rolls as is.
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Offline Grinnen Baeritt

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Re: Additional cost for Spell Mastery
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2008, 11:17:04 AM »
 
2) Increase the modifiers, we use a -20 per X instead -10 per X as the original, so double is -20, triple is -40, etc.

I've already done this, standard modifiers are ridiculously low IMHO  ;D

I think I'll go for something like +1 PP spent for each "level" of spell mastery use. For example, a Firebolt with double target, double damage will cost 2 extra PPs: +1PP for the extra damage; +1PP for the extra target.

As I've said before, serious thought needs to be put towards the actual effect on the DP required to purchase the skill before any further penalties are applied to it's use.

Ok, but SM is a skill that basically let you do anything you want with your spells. Think an effect loosely related to the spell you're casting apply the right modifier and roll. IMHO as it's now is too cheap.  :)

If it were an automatic and totally generic effect I would agree..

A GM lettng a player alter the spell "anyway" you want is IMHO a problem for the GM. A good GM will simply reject the request for the spell to be altered, unless it conforms to the general intent of the Spell List. (I.e. if the spell is modified in such a way that it simply isn't concievable that it would be on that list. E.g. Changing a Firebolt to do Cold Criticals)

A 5th Level Magican spends 20DP to get 5 Ranks (doubled because of everyman) = +50 +10 (profession) +15 (stat) = +75. This is restricted to modifying the spells from ONE list.

With an average roll of 50 this is a success = 125. (so you can change the colour of your spell...woohoo!)

Add in the complication of doubling range (-20) that becomes a near success =105 ...you get to try again after another round at +10. (and still have to make the SMSC check!)

Add in additional complcation, like adding another target (-30) makes that a fail = 75....you get to modify your SMSC by -10.

With regard to the wording, adding another target doesn't necessarily mean you deal double damage...a cunning DM will HALVE the damage taken by each target since each bolt carries half the power. (Doubling the damage is an additional -20 modifier making the total modifier -70, so with the example stated an average roll would be a 55. Good Luck with that. ;)).

Now, add into that the fact that the Magican still has to cast the spell...and that isn't guarenteed ::).

And people STILL want to make it MORE restrictive?

My own house rules are that:

1. It is still possible to automatically cast a spell within the normal conditions of automatic casting but if you roll less than 111 on Spell Mastery check then a SMSC is required regardless.

2. Any result less than 111, means that any result from the Power Manipulation table is appled AND a SMSC is required to complete the spell AND any penalty from resulting from the table is used to modify the required SMCS check.

3. I also allow any bonuses from the Spell Mastery check to be used to offset normal penalties of the SMSC check (like the penalty associated with reducing the required rounds of preperation).


Offline Arioch

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Re: Additional cost for Spell Mastery
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2008, 11:50:20 AM »
(I.e. if the spell is modified in such a way that it simply isn't concievable that it would be on that list. E.g. Changing a Firebolt to do Cold Criticals)

Obviously there are impossible task (fortunately), and you cannot change a firebolt to a coldbolt, but a clever player with SM can really do lots of things...

"I cast Waterwall True, and use spell mastery to give it a round shape around me and make it move with me as I walk through the flames.."

With regard to the wording, adding another target doesn't necessarily mean you deal double damage...a cunning DM will HALVE the damage taken by each target since each bolt carries half the power. (Doubling the damage is an additional -20 modifier making the total modifier -70, so with the example stated an average roll would be a 55. Good Luck with that. ;)).

I don't like it, an additional target is an additional target, halving the effect is complicated. For a single firebolt is simple, but what if I want to add another target to my Teleport III?

A 5th Level Magican spends 20DP to get 5 Ranks (doubled because of everyman) = +50 +10 (profession) +15 (stat) = +75. This is restricted to modifying the spells from ONE list.

With an average roll of 50 this is a success = 125. (so you can change the colour of your spell...woohoo!)

Add in the complication of doubling range (-20) that becomes a near success =105 ...you get to try again after another round at +10. (and still have to make the SMSC check!)

Add in additional complcation, like adding another target (-30) makes that a fail = 75....you get to modify your SMSC by -10.


That means that a level 5 mage shouldn't go around spellmastering spells he learned just yesterday... Spell Mastery is for experts! ;D
Seriously, SM isn't that difficult, provided that you don't roll a failure, even if you score a Partial Succes means that you have succeded in 20% of your action, you just have to keep rolling over 75 until you reach 100%...
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Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Additional cost for Spell Mastery
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2008, 12:08:28 PM »
quasi-historical note ---

Spell Mastery is most likely among the top 3 for skills that embody "power creep" in Rolemaster.

Originally, the skill was used for things like changing/determining orientation upon teleporting (otherwise you ended up facing same way and in same position as when you cast the teleport and dis-oriented most likely), or for making any required maneuver rolls required by the spell, or for concentration-based rolls related to the spell being cast. Basically, if a spell had anything that required a skill roll, then you would use Spell Mastery for that particular spell for it...

In short, it was for utilizing/manipulating the spell WITHIN its original parameters (RM2/RMC).

Then Rolemaster Companion II came out and added the sentence "This skill allows user to modify spells beyond basic parameters." and it has been getting more and more powerful ever since. Other companions built on that sentence.

And in RMSS/FRP it was completely altering how a spell was cast by allowing you to make them more and more powerful, changing the very attributes of the spell such as range, or damage multiplier, etc...


Offline Marc R

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Re: Additional cost for Spell Mastery
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2008, 12:38:58 PM »
The basic damage upping stuff is in the last edition of RM2 SL, made it over into RMC.

It's the whole "Effect level based on PP spent" which I suspect also became a pre-cursor to some of the logic in HARP.

The basic rule is "Spell cast at caster level, costs spell level in PP"

So a 4th level spell cast by a 10th level caster costs 4 PP, it RRs and all X/lv effects are based on 10th level.

The option changed it to "Spell cast at level equal to PP spent, minimum of the level of the spell, maximum of caster level" (Going over caster level on PP = overcasting, if allowed)

So a 4th level spell cast by a 10th level caster at 4 PP, it RRs and all x/lv effects are based on 4th level. (If you want to to be based on 10th, you need to spend 10 PP)

This created a hole, in that all those x/lv spells scaled to effect based on PP spent, and even the flat effect RR spells still RRed at the higher level, there was no balance effect for EAR spells on attack tables, or for unresistable utility type spells.

Thus came the "If firebolt is 6th level, if you cast it with 12 PP it did double damage" and "Double PP, double effect"

Then came the broad, fully encompasing rules with the multipliers that Mockingbird referenced in reply #11 above. . .which I also cannot remember which book for the life of me. . . Could it be the SUC?

Essentially, that was the start of Spell Scaling.

I fully agree with Tim that if you're fiddling with a spell to change what it does, that's spell mastery, but just jacking it's power level while otherwise leaving it the same ala more range, targets, damage, AOE, Duration seems more like spell scaling, which even if it is included in spell mastery, should really cost more PP. And I definitely think that if that means the caster is spending more PP than their level, it should be treated as overcasting.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2008, 02:42:00 PM by LordMiller »
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Offline Grinnen Baeritt

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Re: Additional cost for Spell Mastery
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2008, 01:48:18 PM »
With regard to the wording, adding another target doesn't necessarily mean you deal double damage...a cunning DM will HALVE the damage taken by each target since each bolt carries half the power. (Doubling the damage is an additional -20 modifier making the total modifier -70, so with the example stated an average roll would be a 55. Good Luck with that. ;)).

I don't like it, an additional target is an additional target, halving the effect is complicated. For a single firebolt is simple, but what if I want to add another target to my Teleport III? ;)

All in all just a quick example of how it could be applied, I'm necessarily saying that this should be applied to all uses of the skill, just specific ones. In the case of the Fire bolt, I'd say that the Magician would either have to split his Directed Spells OB or half the damage..

With regard to Teleport III, well that, to mind is a cut and dried example, not subject to a great deal of subjective reasoning on the GM's part. It's not a great game-breaking use of the skill.  

That means that a level 5 mage shouldn't go around spellmastering spells he learned just yesterday... Spell Mastery is for experts! ;D
Seriously, SM isn't that difficult, provided that you don't roll a failure, even if you score a Partial Succes means that you have succeded in 20% of your action, you just have to keep rolling over 75 until you reach 100%...

Apart from the 10 concussion hits per attempt that it is... ;)

Fair enough.  Strictly speaking a 5th level Magician can't cast a Firebolt unless you allow overcasting (so moot point.. :D) and that incurs even greater penalties..

I chose 5th level simply because a Magician gets the skill as everyman, and at 10 ranks that's the most economical bonus/dp ratio. After that the Magician is hit by diminishing returns.  A spell-user that doesn't have the skill as everyman needs to be 10th (or spend another 50 DP.. minimum to achieve the same sort of bonus..

The point I am trying to make is that in most cases it is the GM letting the player pull the wool over the eyes of the GM.

In your example,

"I cast Waterwall True, and use spell mastery to give it a round shape around me and make it move with me as I walk through the flames.."

A GM should simply work out the relevent modifiers and apply them, if they aren't clearly defined by the Spell Mastery discrption then make them upon the fly.

Example. Change shape from Wall to 10' Radius -50, allowing it to move -30, caster doesn't need to concentrate to move it -20 = -100.

Now, assume that the magician is now 10th level and has taken the time and effort to concentrate on Spell Mastery (Water Law)...and has 20 Ranks in it, then their bonus is going to be +30 greater than my previous example. So, a grand total of +105.  Humm, so an average modified roll is 55 (Fail).

I know that your example was just one pulled out of a hat, but, I quite like my players trying to be inventive and I'm not a great fan of spells a la Canon, so if they come up with an idea then I'm not going to penalise them for being clever and trying to think outside the box. And that is basically exactly what is being suggested by adding an additional PP cost..

and I agree with Rasyr, it has been subject to an element of power creep. The trouble is, make this skill any more restrictive then you end up with a D&D type situation where more and more "ever-so slightly different spells" are printed and are spoon fed to the players (giving the GM's additional headaches of keeping track of them all) rather that letting the players be imaginative with the use of the spells that they have got.







Offline Grinnen Baeritt

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Re: Additional cost for Spell Mastery
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2008, 02:00:20 PM »
So, if you ignore the example I suggested earlier in this thread that the skill Spell Mastery is simply a way of changing spells effect to make them more efficent, then why not instead assume that Spell Mastery has the effect of gathering that additional PP required as part of the check?

That would explain some of the more damaging effects of failure.


Offline Marc R

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Re: Additional cost for Spell Mastery
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2008, 02:51:06 PM »
I agree in terms of the overall logic, and I too like to give my players plenty of rope room.

I think you get onto unsavory ground when you end up duplicating a higher level spell. . .which then calls into question the overall logic. . .

If you can use spell mastery to turn Fly into Fly II, then you'd think that over time, Fly II would just replace Fly at that level on that list. . . the fact that it requires a higher level (more ranks) to get to Fly II implies that to improve to that level you need to go up levels and cast it the old way. . .

This also calls into question undercasting. . . .which was in companion VI or VII? If you can pull off the Fly II effect as Fly with a dangerous mod, then why not be allowed to cast all spells with less than their level of PP. (Which is the same logic going in the other direction.). . .I think it equated underpowering as the same penalties as overcasting. (So casting a 5th level spell with 1 PP was the same penalty as overcasting 4 levels.)

Especially with the SCSM structure, that would set up a situation where enough bonus would lead to lowballing all the time. . .your 12th level caster would begin to routinely cast 1-5th level spells at 1 PP. . .

Frankly, I have no problem with the common sense concept that for a high level caster, low level spells would become easier, but game balance wise, the SCSM system allows too much parlaying of bonus against penalties, so that it allows casters to game the mechanics way to easily.

Allowing spell mastery to over-power spells seems to me to be the same thing as casting spells with less than the needed PP. . .either way you're discounting the effect level in terms of PP cost. Most GMs won't allow underpowered casting. (Which makes me wonder why they allow overpowered spell mastery without a PP cost.)
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Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Additional cost for Spell Mastery
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2008, 02:54:22 PM »
Quote
It's the whole "Effect level based on PP spent" which I suspect also became a pre-cursor to some of the logic in HARP.

Nope. Spell Mastery from RMSS/FRP is the direct pre-cursor to spell scaling in HARP (along with some influences from the Harnmaster system and some from the Hero/Champions system) --- I was originally trying to create a psionics system for RMSS/FRP (before Spacemaster came out) but never actually finished it, and instead adapted it for magic when I started working on HARP).

It is possible that those options were one of the precursors to the RMSS/FRP Spell Mastery though.

Quote
I know that your example was just one pulled out of a hat, but, I quite like my players trying to be inventive and I'm not a great fan of spells a la Canon, so if they come up with an idea then I'm not going to penalise them for being clever and trying to think outside the box. And that is basically exactly what is being suggested by adding an additional PP cost..

Charging them extra PP to power effects that are MORE powerful than the normal spell that they are altering is not punishment, it is balancing the increased effect by reducing a resource pool accordingly.

They are already getting a bonus/advantage by being able to alter the spells to begin with...