Topic: removing stat based manuevers

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Just a few comments....     in no particular order....

1) It may well be that the intention of the skill categories was to remove the need for most stat-based rolls when RM2 was revised into RMSS. The category skills do tend to aid in that respect.

2) Not all of the categories are well suited to this idea, and some categories don't even have bonuses.

3) I can easily see some stat-based rolls that might require 2 or more stats based on its complexity or details (i.e. such as trying to throw another party member high enough for him to grab a window sill -- that would be strength and agility (just as with thrown weapons), but there is no real skill that applies to the thrower).

4) The whole reason for having stat-based rolls is to allow for the players to be able to roll something when a situation comes up for which there is no specific skill (or where an existing skill cannot be adapted/co-opted for use).

5) Using skill categories in place of stat based rolls is nothing more than replacing one roll with another, but the replacement has the benefit of the character's being able to improve through the purchase of skill ranks, so it allows for more experienced characters to be better than lower level character at the same sort of rolls.

6) The problem with using skill categories is that, IIRC, they only get a single stat, not 3x the stat), so this means that they will start off being much weaker than a regular stat-based roll. So, you end up with a different problem than the one you are wanting to solve, but it also

7) Approximately the same thing could be done by giving the characters a +1 to stat rolls for each level that they have, and another +1 per level if the stat is one of their prime stats for their profession.

[Langthorne]

6) The problem with using skill categories is that, IIRC, they only get a single stat, not 3x the stat), so this means that they will start off being much weaker than a regular stat-based roll. So, you end up with a different problem than the one you are wanting to solve, but it also

I think it depends on what option you use. The 'core' rule is generally that each category has 3 stats (with an option for each skill to instead have its own set of stats).

We have had the "Dwarf tossing" situation at some point, I'm just trying to remember how we resolved it - probably an Athletic Brawn Skill modified by the Acrobatics skill of the "Dwarf".

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

okay, so I wasn't recalling correctly... 

[Arioch]

5) Using skill categories in place of stat based rolls is nothing more than replacing one roll with another, but the replacement has the benefit of the character's being able to improve through the purchase of skill ranks, so it allows for more experienced characters to be better than lower level character at the same sort of rolls.

This is the main reason that made me use categories instead of stat rolls.

7) Approximately the same thing could be done by giving the characters a +1 to stat rolls for each level that they have, and another +1 per level if the stat is one of their prime stats for their profession.

Good idea... but this would not remove Stat Manuevers 

On a second tought, this would almost as giving free ranks in certain actions. Could be an idea for handling skills/capabilites which are secondary for the scope of a campaign. So you could have a large list of skills, from which GM and players can choose what skills will be important for their campaign. These skills will cost DPs to develop, all other skills/actions will not cost anything (since they will not be used in the game very often or will not have a great impact in it) and all characters will have a bonus of Stat+ x/level in them. A character could still pay a little amount of DPs to have little bonus in a "secondary" skill of his choice (to reflect background/training/etc.).

[Trond]

So you could have a large list of skills, from which GM and players can choose what skills will be important for their campaign. These skills will cost DPs to develop, all other skills/actions will not cost anything (since they will not be used in the game very often or will not have a great impact in it) and all characters will have a bonus of Stat+ x/level in them. A character could still pay a little amount of DPs to have little bonus in a "secondary" skill of his choice (to reflect background/training/etc.).

This could perhaps work for a GM who is able to run things with loose guidelines for rules, but I doubt it would work for GMs who need a bit more structure. I think your broad skill category suggestion would work for most people, though. I certainly prefer it to skill rolls based on a stat bonus alone. In some situations, you could perhaps take the average of two skills/skill categories to handle certain situations not fully covered by a single skill/category. If this still does not cover every situation, the GM could use a stat-action formula like the one I suggested, or the simplest solution of all; the GM just rules that, for instance, 'this chain can only be broken by a person with a Strength bonus of +25 (or a person with a huge sledge hammer )'

[Trond]

Sorry, I am of course talking about +25 according to RMC/RM2. I guess that would mean about +10 in RMSS/FRP.

[pastaav]

The reason to use categories is to me that profession bonuses and similar will be added into the mix. If you go by pure stat bonus you miss that professions are supposed to be better on certain types of actions.

[markc]

The reason to use categories is to me that profession bonuses and similar will be added into the mix. If you go by pure stat bonus you miss that professions are supposed to be better on certain types of actions.

 If you do do it that way I like your logic about the profession bonus.

MDC

[Arioch]

The reason to use categories is to me that profession bonuses and similar will be added into the mix. If you go by pure stat bonus you miss that professions are supposed to be better on certain types of actions.

Yet another reasons to use them 
I was also thinking of linking RRs to categories, but then I changed my mind, as it would change too many things (in the past I've tried to make skills for RRs but I didn't like it very much).

[vroomfogle]

I've never liked skills for RRs either.  It doesn't make much sense to me that they would be something you can train for.   On the other hand, I don't like level based RRs either.   For lack of a better system I use the existing mechanic for RRs vs magic but Poison and Disease everyone resists as if Level 5.

[Arioch]

I've never liked skills for RRs either.  It doesn't make much sense to me that they would be something you can train for.   On the other hand, I don't like level based RRs either.   For lack of a better system I use the existing mechanic for RRs vs magic but Poison and Disease everyone resists as if Level 5.

I agree, I really would like to find a better way of handling RRs 
BTW for poisons I usually have them having some effect even if the character pass the RR (the more potent the poison is, the worst is the effect). But maybe this is a subject for another topic 

[markc]

 For poisen and disease RR's I use the PC Con bonus as thier level, I think it works well.

MDC

[jps]

I've never liked skills for RRs either.  It doesn't make much sense to me that they would be something you can train for.   On the other hand, I don't like level based RRs either.   For lack of a better system I use the existing mechanic for RRs vs magic but Poison and Disease everyone resists as if Level 5.

Never thought about this very simple rule. I love it, consider it stolen 

[Langthorne]

I've never liked skills for RRs either.  It doesn't make much sense to me that they would be something you can train for.   On the other hand, I don't like level based RRs either.   For lack of a better system I use the existing mechanic for RRs vs magic but Poison and Disease everyone resists as if Level 5.

Vroom, or anyone, what do you use for RRs Vs Influence?

[vroomfogle]

Do you mean like Influence skills?   I've never really RRs for skills before.   If there are two appropriate, conflicting skills in use by both parties then I'd do skill roll vs skill roll.  Otherwise I'd just assign a difficulty as normal.

[Arioch]

Do you mean like Influence skills?   I've never really RRs for skills before.   If there are two appropriate, conflicting skills in use by both parties then I'd do skill roll vs skill roll.  Otherwise I'd just assign a difficulty as normal.

So do I: I just give a standard difficulty or make a Influence check vs Self Control (cat) or an applicable skill (whoever gets the higher result "wins").

[Langthorne]

Yes, I meant influence skills.

What sort of skills would you use as appropriate 'resistance' skills versus duping, interrogation, seduction, public speaking, diplomacy, etc etc?

[vroomfogle]

I wouldn't use the RR mechanic for those types of skills.   I'm not sure what I would use if I used the RR mechanic for them.    When I said skills for RR's I meant the rules that you take skill in "Essence Resistance" for instance in order to raise your level for RR's vs Essence.  This idea and variations on it have appeared in the original Companions and also SoHK (I think?)

[Langthorne]

I don't like Skill vs Level RRs for spells, poison etc.

I don't really like Ranks vs Level RRs for influence skills.

I do think different characters should have different levels of resistance, and should (to some extent) be able to develop their level of resistance (either directly, or as a result of development in other related skills).

For poison/disease I can see how RR at 5th level (or based on CO bonus) can work.

For spells and influence (in fact all resistance type circumstances) I would rather have a Skill vs Skill roll than the existing RR system, but I think that will mean adding 'resistance' skills.

The problem is that adding in resistance skills for spells, influence and poison type attacks will affect DPs (either causing a hit in available DPs, or requiring extra DPs to be assigned to cover the new skills - which would tend to result in something similar to level based RRs if the extra DPs are used for the resistance skills).

So my questions are:

How does everyone resolve Influence Skill attacks? (does the defender get some kind of RR or Skill vs Skill roll?)

Do you think that the introduction of resistance skills would work in the way I describe? If not, how? What are the other options?

[markc]

 I think that if I was going to use a RR system for social skills I would use the following, SD bonus + either Me bonus or Re bonus + special factors. Or you could use the will stat defined in the TC.

MDC