Topic: Garrote, how do you handle it?

[Fatman]

The topic says it all really. Last night one of the members of the group wanted to use a wire to get rid of a "problem". Now this often done by trained assassins.

Now for the real problem. To use this weapon one have to sneak up on the target and attack from behind getting every bonus from such an attack (flank, rear and suprise) and the way I see it the critical should only be applied to the neck(?).

So any ideas how to handle it? Is it covered by the rules? All ideas are welcomed

PS: The French Foreign Legion trains to be able to use it in any hand to hand combat situation, so it can actually be used without sneaking up on a target.

[Arioch]

I would use an attack table with low damage results but capable of doing high criticals, for example Martial Arts Sweeps, with Grappling criticals. Use Ambush skill to adjust the crit roll and apply the result to the neck (flavor text of crits is there only for flavor, so just keep the effects and change the description to your need).

[Langthorne]

Good question.

I think the skill would probably have to be developed as a special attack, but beyond that I'll have to keep thinking about it.

The things I'm considering are:

Attack table; Crit table; Would it just be a case of Special Attack: Garrote Vs defender's DB?; Types of Garrote (there is the type that requires the attacker to hold on throughout the attack, and one that is looped over the head of the victim like a noose); Once the Garrote is around the throat, what can the victim do about it?

Hmm, this could take a while.     

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

The Garrote is essentially a grapple of the neck with a length of wire. So, I fully agree with using the Sweeps Table, but due to the wire, I would do slash crits, not grapple, however, it should be treated like a grapple for the purposes of getting free. Also, the garrote should do crit of equal severity each round, until the foe is dead or breaks free. Also, if the defender has neck armor, I would simply rule that you essentially have him in a normal grapple (use grapple crit, not slash).

Breaking the grapple is still the same, regardless of the critical being done. It requires either a strength roll, or an attack of some sort on the foe doing the grappling (the defender's limbs would be free, so the only hampering would be the position of the foe (behind the defender). Sweeps and Throws comes in handy here, as you could attempt to throw the foe -- his position would, in such an instance, offer no benefit at all.

Just my 2 cents worth..

[Marc R]

I might call the garrotte a small or medium grapple attack, innefective vs a target with rigid neck armor.

As per the rules, just adjust the grapple crit result so it always affects the neck vicinity as needed.

Keep in mind that if I were to toss a rope around your neck and start pulling, likely we'll end up bashing and flailing around, so it might not be totally out of line not to move damage to the neck if a crit reads "Breaks rib -20" it could easily mean that in the struggle to get the garrotte off, they broke the rib on a peice of furniture, a corner of the wall, the floor with the attacker falling on them, etc.

Grapple attacks progressively hamper the target. . .I'd likely also get into closed off air and blood flow in the form of progressive RRs after a few rounds of the neck grapple. (Then again, you could just treat the hits/crits as being partially due to the choking effect, with unconciouness coming at 0 hits).

IMO If the attacker gets a crit result with a % of grapple, then they have the garotte around the neck, if not, then the attack failed, and unless the target is severely hampered in movement I'd say it's time to switch weapons (I guess you could improvise jackie chan style and use the garrotte as nunchucks or try wrapping up their hand while fighting or something, but likely having blown it, it's time to run or just punch them.)

If the attacker did get a grapple %, I would then get into breaking the grapple for the target (per what Tim said above) and also allow further attacks by the attacker, continuing until the target is dead/breaks free, or the attacker decides to stop trying.

For a wide/soft garrotte, like a scarf, that would likely be it. . .for a thin/hard one like a rope or chain I might consider secondary krush criticals of lesser effect (Though the grapple table will crush things, so perhaps not). . .

with the wire slash crits may make sense. . . .but it's akin to the knife to the neck issue. . .a thin wire pulled by a heavy/strong person will quickly decapitate the target (and saw off fingers slipped into the garrotte at the same time) so it's almost akin to a "I walk up behind the guard and cut his throat". . .the wire is essentially a loop of knife edge. . . depends on how you, as GM would rule a PC slitting throats on unaware, but not helpless targets.

[markc]

 IMO this is a tough one and I am glad I did not have to answer it as I do not have any good rules of my own to deal with it. I can say the way to get out of the garrote is to attack the attackers ribs, feet, legs or groin as they are trying to strangle you. And I think the experts say that if you do not have a part of your body inside the garrote hampering it from crushing your windpipe do not grab at it with your hands as you have a very little chance of removing it that way.
 Also as said above if there is stiff neck protection then I would negate almost any attack. But then again not many people where neck protection that I can think of.

 I also do not know about the damage that a garrote attack would do besides cuting off the airway and maybe bruseing or damageing the windpipe. I do not think that it kills unless you keep the garrote hold on long enough.

Fatman,
 Do you know of how they use the garrote in HtH combat? Is it to parry HtH attacks and take down an opponet then go for the neck?

Thanks
MDC

[Fatman]

Markc: As I understand it they use the garrote as part of their hand to hand training, or martial arts if you want. The point being to be able to disarm and to move as quick as possible behind the target and give him a necklace he didn't want.

In addition they use it as a tool to take out targets that haven't noticed them yet, as a assassin tool.

[Marc R]

I'd think it would be rather hard to HTH in and get a garrotte on someone without at least popping them for at least a stun no parry or a good grapple first. Even unarmed, just fighting with one hand on high cover would almost completely negate the effectiveness of a garrotte. (Well, with gloves, if it was a wire.)

[markc]

 I have seen a garrote type weapon used to throw an opponet, which puts them in a position to attack the neck with the garrote. Or a simple throw that disorrients the opponet and gives the attacker time to pull his garrote from his sleve and then attack the downed man.

 I also think that thier should be some serous modifiers for varous types of garrote. ie rope, light chain, thick wire, thin wire and the futureistic monofilament wire.

 In RM I think to use it in active combat the defender would have to be stuned no parry to use it and then the attaker would have to make an attack. For the sneek attack I would have the attacker roll move silently to the target [maybe more than 1 roll], then wait for a proper attack [may give target more aletness or sense ambush checks [I only use aletness]] and then roll for the attack.

 This also brings up the point that IMO a modern military PC or NPC would IMO have quite a few ranks in perception skills. I do not know if they would get thease in basic training or advanced indvidual traning or some other additional training cycle. And I do think in RMSS it is one area that a few players really do not focus on. The professions that do generally have very cheep DP costs for the perception skills.

MDC 

[broodhunter]

Or, alternatively, you could use the rules set forth in Pulp Adventures.

[broodhunter]

After watching "A History of Violence"  my buddy and I got into a discussion about Garrotes.  I plan on publishing an article for the Guild Companion in the near future.

[naphta23]

Some things to consider:

• during an Escrima training session I watched some highranking practitioners to use their belt as a whipping, disarming, and grappling tool; perhaps you could use the garotte in a similar fashion
• trying to use a garotte on a defender without surprising him can be a not so smart move, if the defender can keep his cool; while applying the garotte, both of your hands are at the defender's neck, while 1 or 2 of the defender's hands are free; thus, the defender could punch delicate nerve points or stab you several times while your hands are still occupied; even if the defender freaks out, he is likely to kick around wildly, perhaps even punching around wildly, which could hinder your "garotting"
• with all those points in mind, you should consider any rulings concerning a garotte catiously; the garotte could end up to be the ultimate tool each PC has to have in the pocket, resulting in more stealthy assassinations than in heroic combat

Anyway, thank you for the topic and for the answers!