Author Topic: Fate Points HR (warning: long!)  (Read 4817 times)

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Offline Arioch

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Fate Points HR (warning: long!)
« on: February 12, 2009, 09:20:26 PM »
That's the HR I've come up with while discussing in this thread: http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=8091.0

Since it's quite long, I'll break it into 2 parts:

PART I

Scene: below I often refer to something called ?a scene?, so I?ll explain here what meaning I give to the word ?scene? in these rules. A scene is a set of actions, all connected by the same intent. A fight is a scene (as it?s made of various actions, all sharing the same final intent), a pursuit is a scene, and so it is a long negotiation, or trying to skulk into an enemy?s camp to reach the commander?s tent.
Scenes have no fixed duration, deciding how long a scene will last, when it begins and when it ends is up to the GM.

WEAKNESSES

-   A Weakness is behaviour or attitude typical of your character, the may hinder or cause harm to him in certain situations.
-   Each weakness is made of two components: a Name (followed by a small description) and a Condition. The Name tells you what a weakness is (for example: arachnophobia is a irrational fear of spiders), the Condition tells you what events may trigger you weakness (for example: arachnophobia may be triggered by the sight of spiders or by hints of spiders? presence).
-   During character creation, players must choose from 1 to 3 weaknesses for their characters. A character may never have more than 3 or less than 1 weakness.
-   When his character is in a situation that fulfil one of his weaknesses? Condition, a player may choose to trigger this weakness. To do so he must describe why the weakness is triggered and how it affects his character?s actions (for example: an arachnophobic character enters an ancient tomb. His player decide to trigger his weakness: he says that the character sees large spider webs hanging from the tomb?s ceiling and that his character shiver with fear).
-   When a weakness is triggered the character that triggers it will suffer a -30 penalty to all actions for the duration of a scene (for example: the above character will suffer a -30 penalty to all actions, due to his fear of spiders, during the exploration of the tomb).
-   The GM may decide to veto an activation of a weakness, if he thinks that the situation does not fit the triggering Condition or if he thinks that in that situation the weakness will not hinder the character in any way (in other words, to be triggered the weakness MUST affect the character?s actions, you cannot trigger a weakness if you know that you won?t be facing any risk).
-   When a character triggers one of his weaknesses he gain a Drive Point.
-   If a PC has less than 3 weaknesses he can gain a new weakness whenever his players want. To do so, the character must be in a situation that meets the Condition of the new weakness. The character?s player must then describe the new weakness, saying why and how his character gains it. He must then trigger it: the character won?t earn any Drive Point from this first activation, but the player may now write his new weakness on his character sheet.
-   If  a PC has more than 1 weaknesses his player may decide to cancel one of them at any moment. To do so, his character must be in a situation that meets the Condition of weakness he wants to get rid of. Then the player must choose not to trigger it, describing why and how his character has overcome his weakness, and spend a Drive Point. If  he does so, he may cancel the weakness from his character?s sheet.

DRIVE

A character may spend a Drive Point at any moment to activate one of the following effects:

-   ignoring up to -30 of accumulated penalties for the duration of a scene
-   re-roll a failed RR
-   removing a round of stun or of stun no parry
-   cancel a Compel on one of his weaknesses (see below)

There?s no limit on how many Drive Points a character may gain during a game session, but no more than 1 Drive Point may be carried from one session to another. At the end of each session, all characters lose all of their Drive Point, save one.
Characters start with zero Drive Point.
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline Arioch

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Re: Fate Points HR
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2009, 09:21:03 PM »
PART II

FATE

-   The Fate of a character is the most important thing for that PC, the heart of that character?s concept. A character?s Fate drives him to take risks and has a great impact on his personality and actions. A Fate is not a short-term goal, it?s something distant and probably unreachable, like an ideal.
-   Each character must choose one Fate. Characters may never have more than one Fate or less than one Fate.
-   Each Fate is made of 3 components: a Name (followed by a brief description), an Action and a Breach. The Name of a Fate tells you what the Fate?s about, the Action tells you what triggers it and the Breach tells you when the PC can choose to change his Fate (for example, Name -> Fate of the Hatred: you a hate a race, nation or group of people and want to see them destroyed.  Action -> whenever you put yourself into danger to do harm to the source of your hatred. Breach -> helping someone who?s part of the group of people you hate).
-   Whenever a PC perform his Fate?s action he gains one Fate Point.
-   Whenever a PC perform the action described in his Fate?s Breach, he may choose to leave his Fate (cancelling it from his character?s sheet and exchanging it with a new one). To do so his player must describe why the PC is leaving his Fate and what caused this drastic change in his worldview.
-   Fates must be approved by the GM, additionally, the GM may veto any trigger of a  Fate Action if he thinks that the PC is not running any risk (no risk = no fate points).

Example of Fate:
Fate of the Defender: you have sworn to protect something or someone. Action: whenever you take risk to protect what you defend. Breach: whenever you let something bad happen to it.

FATE POINTS

Players may spend a Fate Point to:

-   obtain a success in any manoeuvre performed by his character (before rolling for it)
-   turn one of his character?s failed/fumbled manoeuvre into a success. In this case the GM add a negative side effect to the final outcome of the manoeuvre (for example: a character fails his hiding manoeuvre while trying to hide from a guard, so his player spend a Fate Point to turn the failure into a success. The GM says that the character manages to hide himself behind a curtain, but the guard sits right in front of it to drink some whine from his flask?)
-   cheat death: turn any fatal situation into a non-fatal one. Instead of death, character gets complications (for example, he?s knocked out and made prisoner, or he lose a very important object, ?). Complications are chosen by the GM.
-   Automatically cause maximum damage possible (according to the attack table he?s using) with an attack. Critical must be rolled normally.

Depending on the style of the Campaign, characters start with and can store different amount of Fate Points:

Gritty campaign: PCs start with 1 Fate Points. No PC can ever have more than 1 Fate Point
Standard campaign: PCs start with 1 FP. No PC can ever have more than 2 Fate Point
Heroic campaign: PCs start with 2 FP. There?s no limit on how many FPs a character can keep.

THE GOBLET OF DOOM
 
Whenever a player spends a Fate Point, the GM gains a Doom Point. Doom Points represent misfortune, bad karma,  etc?. They are put into a pool called ?the Goblet of Doom? (you can use a bowl or something similar for the Goblet and coins or other tokens for Doom Points, or just write them down on a piece of paper. What?s important is that the exact amount of Doom Points in the Goblet must always be clear to all players).

DOOM POINTS

The GM may spend a Doom Point (removing it from the Goblet) to:

-   have a NPC cheat death, saving him from a lethal situation (for example, a mortally wounded NPC manages to escape from the PCs, and have his wounds healed)
-   Compel a weakness: When a character is in a situation that fulfil one of his weaknesses? Condition, the GM may spend a Doom Point to trigger that weakness. The character?s player may choose to accept the triggering (and gain a Drive Point) or spend a Drive Point and cancel the Compel.
-   Make any character (PC opr NPC) reroll any maneuver, RR or attack (this ability cannot be used to cancel successes gained trough the use of Fate Points).

GM always start with 1 Doom Point in the Goblet of Doom.
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline markc

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Re: Fate Points HR (warning: long!)
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2009, 10:14:23 PM »
Airoch,

Note1: This whole thing reminds me of the game Deadlands and some of there mechanics.
Note 2: The goal is to have fun and if it works for you do it.

Part 1: [This sort of reminds me of fate points a little]
Weakness:
1) In RMSS or RMFRP a player gets talents and flaws and if the player does not play his flaw he may not get Exp or the GM can just say you are experiencing this and you modifier is this based on the PC you created.
2) IMO the GM should define when a flaw comes in to play and when it does not. IMO this is very important as the PC will only decide to play his flaw when it is beneficial for him to do so or when forced to do so by Doom Points. The player will not play his Weakness in the big ending battle or an important battle where it would have defiantly been present depending on the condition.
Example: To use your example of arachnophobia; why would seeing a spider in a small combat affect him where as in a major battle it does not affect his PC? IMO this is no good answer and if there is a GM may provide a bonus to a roll to see how bad his penalty is. [Sort of like a willpower roll, a composure roll or a sanity roll] Once the roll is done he applies the penalty or bonus and acts as if under that condition.

Drive Points:
 IMO Drive points are too powerful and need to be toned down to roughly 1/2 the effect of Weakness Points or have a sliding scale of what multiple points can do for a PC. Such as 1 Drive point will adjust a penalty by -15 or to negate a Doom Point, 2 Drive Points ignore -25 wound, etc.

MDC
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline markc

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Re: Fate Points HR (warning: long!)
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2009, 10:27:38 PM »
Part 2:
Fate Points:
 IMO this rewards players for playing there PC's backgrounds with Fate Points, which IMO players should do without any "bonus" as they created the PC with some guidance from the GM.
 Also IMO all the players will get together and have the same Fate so as to gain Fate Points. But what happens when players all have differing fates? Will some get points and some will not? Will the power players of the game get more Fate Points? Or even does the GM need to try and keep Fate Points balanced? Those are some good questions to answer during your play testing. And also I would test and see just how balanced the options you have for spending Fate Points are. I would keep a tally of all the options and when one is used put a mark in the box. If one is used more than others it may be unbalanced.

Doom Points:
 What I would be curious about here is just how often does the GM use Doom Points against a player. In some games that have a system like this I have noticed that some GM's pick on some players more than other's. Or I should say at the expense of other gamers. This can also promote problems during the game as the player perceives the GM is thowrting them at every turn. And usually other gamers go along with it as they see the GM is not picking on me so its ok.

 The whole system really reminds me of Deadlands, a little nWoD, and some other game I just cannot place at this time.

MDC
 
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline RandalThor

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Re: Fate Points HR (warning: long!)
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2009, 01:39:25 AM »
......... and some other game I just cannot place at this time.

MDC
 

Could that be 7th Sea, where the Players have drama dice and when they spend them they go into the GMs pool of drama dice to use against the PCs?
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Scratch that. Power attracts the corruptible.

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Offline pastaav

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Re: Fate Points HR (warning: long!)
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2009, 01:49:06 AM »
-30 in penalty is a rather horrible penalty if you ask me. If we are speaking about typical skills bonuses and typical skill difficulties then there is a one to one ratio between penalty and reduced chance for success.

If we have some difficulties aimed at level 1 characters then they need to be pretty easy for it to be fair game. A level 1 character will typically have a bonus in their focus skills that is in the range of say 25-35. Suffering a -30 penalty is pretty much the same as saying the character will fail all actions unless there are massive bonuses in the given situation, no sane player will take that risk for a latter advantage. On the other hand the penalty of -30 would matter very little to high level characters. To put it simply...I don't think your system will work.

Possibly you could improve your system by working with change difficulty instead of penalties. This also changes the success rate, but it has the benefit that higher level characters will suffer more from activating their weakness.  

/Pa Staav

Offline Arioch

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Re: Fate Points HR (warning: long!)
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2009, 02:08:07 AM »
1) In RMSS or RMFRP a player gets talents and flaws and if the player does not play his flaw he may not get Exp or the GM can just say you are experiencing this and you modifier is this based on the PC you created.

True, you're completely right... I think it's better not to mix them, so if you choose to use this HR you shouldn't use Flaws (I forgot about that because I don't use them)

Quote
IMO this is very important as the PC will only decide to play his flaw when it is beneficial for him to do so or when forced to do so by Doom Points.

Note that the GM can (and should) veto any activation of a weakness that does not damage/hinder the character in any way, so if a player tries to trigger a weakness to receive a benefical effect it simply won't work.

Quote
To use your example of arachnophobia; why would seeing a spider in a small combat affect him where as in a major battle it does not affect his PC? IMO this is no good answer and if there is a GM may provide a bonus to a roll to see how bad his penalty is.

Well, first I just want to point out that my aim is not to create realistic rules for pshycological behaviour (I wouldn't even know where to start for something like that). Weaknesses are just a way to characterize a PC and create interesting situations in game.
Second, "scenes" probably need a better definition, to make the use of weaknesses as more balanced as possible.
Finally making the GM choose when a weakness should trigger is what I want to avoid (save by Doom Points). I want players to be free to interpretertheir characters as they want... otoh if they never trigger their weaknesses they'll never get Drive Points.

Quote
Drive Points:
 IMO Drive points are too powerful and need to be toned down

Yeah, they surely need playtesting to adjust costs and effects.
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline Arioch

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Re: Fate Points HR (warning: long!)
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2009, 02:16:10 AM »
-30 in penalty is a rather horrible penalty if you ask me. If we are speaking about typical skills bonuses and typical skill difficulties then there is a one to one ratio between penalty and reduced chance for success.

If we have some difficulties aimed at level 1 characters then they need to be pretty easy for it to be fair game. A level 1 character will typically have a bonus in their focus skills that is in the range of say 25-35. Suffering a -30 penalty is pretty much the same as saying the character will fail all actions unless there are massive bonuses in the given situation, no sane player will take that risk for a latter advantage. On the other hand the penalty of -30 would matter very little to high level characters. To put it simply...I don't think your system will work.

Good point, I need to work on this one: maybe penalties could increase as characters gain new levels? Something like -5/character level? No, I don't think that would be good  :-\
Probably raising manouvers difficulties by one as you said would be better.

Quote
The whole system really reminds me of Deadlands, a little nWoD, and some other game I just cannot place at this time.

Well, save from Channeling Companion rules on Fate Points I got inspiration mainly by Shadow of the Century and The Burning Wheel.
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline markc

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Re: Fate Points HR (warning: long!)
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2009, 02:22:42 AM »
......... and some other game I just cannot place at this time.

MDC
 

Could that be 7th Sea, where the Players have drama dice and when they spend them they go into the GMs pool of drama dice to use against the PCs?

 I do not think I have ever seen 7th Sea but I could be wrong as a friend of mine has a game store library at his house. That is to say his collection is more extensive than some merchants I have seen.
MDC
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
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Offline markc

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Re: Fate Points HR (warning: long!)
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2009, 02:28:24 AM »
Arioch,
 I will be very interested in how the test goes. Especially when players decide to trigger there weakness and what the criteria is for that trigger to go off.  Also is some round about way the GM still has control of the Weakness trigger as he can veto any non-event or does not apply.

 I hope it improves you game or at least makes a few game very interesting as IMO it very rarely huts to mod a game to see where it goes. BTW were you influenced by any games for your mechanics? If not I find it very interesting that the Doom Points are almost right from the Deadlands rules.
MDC
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline Arioch

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Re: Fate Points HR (warning: long!)
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2009, 02:53:09 AM »
If not I find it very interesting that the Doom Points are almost right from the Deadlands rules.

I never read Deadlands (it's a western game, right?), the idea of Doom Points came from a comment on Fate Points (the original rules in Channeling Comp) on these boards and a bit from House of the Blooded aspects' mechanics.

Other things that inspired me are Keys from The Shadow of Yesterday (which you can find here for free: http://zork.net/~nick/loyhargil/tsoy2/book1--rulebook.html) and Artha mechanics form Burning Wheel.
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

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Re: Fate Points HR (warning: long!)
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2009, 05:39:53 AM »
Arioch,

personally I'm not a fan of whatever rule that allow rerolling/adjust/change results. I think that the GM can allow reroll if he feels appropriate (justified) (or if the player cry convincingly, handing some gold coins  :D).

I can handle the Idea of GM that cheat (rarely and in extremis) but I expect an Input, the Player action or reaction, and an output, whatever happens.
With these rules the line blurr, but have you given something to the story? Your players have more control on the plot? Or have more control only on contingent situoations (life or death)?

What should these rules (also extensive) accomplish? Fight another day? Feel more heoric? Feel stronger? Giving an higer immersion factor?

Perhaps instead of handling mechanics, you could drive your players more but using these mechanics with XPs. Handing out more or less XPs, based on passions, ideals and beliefs.

Offline RandalThor

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Re: Fate Points HR (warning: long!)
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2009, 05:51:02 AM »
I do not think I have ever seen 7th Sea but I could be wrong as a friend of mine has a game store library at his house. That is to say his collection is more extensive than some merchants I have seen.
MDC

That sounds like my collection....my third collection. (The first two having been sold off at pivotal points in my personal history. Boy I really wish I hadn't sold many of those products....... :'()
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Re: Fate Points HR (warning: long!)
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2009, 05:57:13 AM »
That sounds like my collection....my third collection. (The first two having been sold off at pivotal points in my personal history. Boy I really wish I hadn't sold many of those products....... :'()

No punishment is known to men to clear you of this sin...  ;)

I also believe that no RPG should be ever reselled. They should only be added. This is why I don't like PDF product...

Offline Arioch

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Re: Fate Points HR (warning: long!)
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2009, 06:35:16 AM »
I think that the GM can allow reroll if he feels appropriate (justified)

This is exactly one of the things I dislike and that I want to avoid.

Quote
What should these rules (also extensive) accomplish? Fight another day? Feel more heoric? Feel stronger? Giving an higer immersion factor?

- Avoid cheating/fudging by the GM.
- Reduce risk factor in situations deemed uninteresting by the players.
- Encourage players to take risk when they know that if they fail they'll lose something they really care for. In other words, encourage to risk when the stakes are high in order to make the game more exciting.
- Encourage roleplaying (you roleplay your weaknesses and/or motivations-> you get a prize)

Quote
Handing out more or less XPs, based on passions, ideals and beliefs.

I already use goal-based XPs, but while they accomplish my last goal (no pun intended  ;)), they fail to accomplish the others.

One thing that I think is really important: Weaknesses and Fates should not be kept secret. All players should discuss together (with the GM, too) and choose their Fates and Weaknesses together, to avoid creating parties where everyone wants to do something completely different than the others. Actually imho the same thing should happen even if you don't use these rules, or the GM will have a hard time to figure how your PCs are going to stick together!  ;D
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

giulio.trimarco

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Re: Fate Points HR (warning: long!)
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2009, 08:04:42 AM »
Some tought:

Quote
- Avoid cheating/fudging by the GM.
Oh, if you create a rule that the GM can reroll, he'll not be cheating?
Some for players.

Quote
- Reduce risk factor in situations deemed uninteresting by the players.
Uninteresting? Mmmm... So, my PC ins't interested in climbing a sheer cliff during an Ice Storm... and reroll a failed climbing roll?
This is a very complex matter, for short:

1)I see rerolling as reducing the thrilling factor.
2)The GM isn't doing a good job.
3)The player is happy of risking even in uninteresting sutuation.

Quote
- Encourage players to take risk when they know that if they fail they'll lose something they really care for. In other words, encourage to risk when the stakes are high in order to make the game more exciting.

Some as for the example: climbing a sheer cliff during an ice storm. What will you loose? Your life? Normlly players have clear what they want from PC (and from the game).

Quote
- Encourage roleplaying (you roleplay your weaknesses and/or motivations-> you get a prize)

I'll handle this matter with XP. If PC feel not up to the upcoming task they'll use their head to gain an advantage or search a way around.
The GM should be capable of giving the player the right "threat" level, sure, but this is more "story" driven then winning the day with reroll.

Imho.

Offline Arioch

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Re: Fate Points HR (warning: long!)
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2009, 08:41:37 AM »
Quote
Oh, if you create a rule that the GM can reroll, he'll not be cheating?

No, as in this case there are clear rules on what he can do and when he can do it. Cheating imply trickery, breaking the rules, fudging rolls behind the screen when none see and similar things.
You can't call following a clear procedure in front of everyone "cheating".

Quote
Uninteresting? Mmmm... So, my PC ins't interested in climbing a sheer cliff during an Ice Storm... and reroll a failed climbing roll?

No, if behind that cliff doesn't lie something that matters to your character.
External conditions may make the task hard, but what makes it interesting imho are the inner motivations that push the character to attempt it.

If you don't mind could we continue discussion about the "theory" behind my HR in the other topic (the one in the RM general section)? I would like to keep this one only for "technical" discussions on the HR mechanics
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Re: Fate Points HR (warning: long!)
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2009, 08:49:56 AM »
If you don't mind could we continue discussion about the "theory" behind my HR in the other topic (the one in the RM general section)? I would like to keep this one only for "technical" discussions on the HR mechanics

Ok. Even if, to me, you HR is less mechanic that I think you'll like it to be,

Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: Fate Points HR (warning: long!)
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2009, 01:00:02 PM »
Pastaav brings up a good point about the -30 and other things. Yes, you need to play with the math to make it work, but that's true of any new rule, no? An easy "first approximation" fix to the -30 is to say that it's not a -30 to a percentile die roll, it's "subtract 30% of the total bonus." So the first level guy whose total bonus is +30 only takes a hit down to +21, and the high level guy whose bonus is +180 gets hit for 54, taking him down to +126.

My big question about the general mechanic is what's to stop it from becoming just a point war between the GM's Doom Points and the party's Drive Points?

Quote
No, as in this case there are clear rules on what he can do and when he can do it. Cheating imply trickery, breaking the rules, fudging rolls behind the screen when none see and similar things.

Until this whole bundle of similarly themed threads started, I never thought of it as such. As either a player or GM, I always felt the players gave the GM authority to do precisely what Fate Points (in either usage), Drive Points and Doom Points do, and further gave him authority to do it on the fly without having to consult his players.

That's why GMing is hard, because you're given a weapon of that caliber and you have to learn to use it without blowing your legs off.

I can see the sense in having something like this for GM's who are still clumsy at fitting the story to the group of players. Kind of an optional rule and teaching aid combined. The really good groups won't need it and that's okay, but the power mad GMs who need it most won't put up with it. I'd say the main priority here is to make sure a power mad GM (or power mad players for that matter, I've met a few) can't turn it into a tool for further abuse.
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Offline Arioch

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Re: Fate Points HR (warning: long!)
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2009, 07:09:39 PM »
Pastaav brings up a good point about the -30 and other things. Yes, you need to play with the math to make it work, but that's true of any new rule, no? An easy "first approximation" fix to the -30 is to say that it's not a -30 to a percentile die roll, it's "subtract 30% of the total bonus." So the first level guy whose total bonus is +30 only takes a hit down to +21, and the high level guy whose bonus is +180 gets hit for 54, taking him down to +126.

Good idea!

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My big question about the general mechanic is what's to stop it from becoming just a point war between the GM's Doom Points and the party's Drive Points?

Both have a finite amount of points, if the players don't like the way the GM is using Doom Pts, they can choose to stop giving new points to him.

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As either a player or GM, I always felt the players gave the GM authority to do precisely what Fate Points (in either usage), Drive Points and Doom Points do, and further gave him authority to do it on the fly without having to consult his players.

Yes, and as you said this makes the GM task quite hard (as he can't read in his players' minds but only guess what his players would like him to do). By splitting this task with the players I hope to make running the game easier (leaving the GM with more time to think about other things, like interpreting NPCs or coming up with new ideas for the campaign...) and more fun.
I think it's a lot like giving the players other tasks, like reading crits and attack tables from Arms Law or looking for a specific rule in the manual when it's needed. The GM doesn't lose anything, he just get rid of a demanding task  ;)
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.