Author Topic: Invisibility  (Read 9358 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

  • Revered Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,221
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Invisibility
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2009, 05:56:21 AM »
This has already been adressed in the previous posts but:
- dogs and similar animals will be able to detect you, but will still have a -50 penalty if they're trying to attack you (and, given that a dog has a OB of 50...)
Would they? I've always assumed the penalty given was based on creatures relying mainly on sight (e.g. human beings). I mean, a lot of animals are actually almost blind and rely on sound, smell, vibration, etc. Why would they have any kind of penalty against something they don't see? According to the wording in the rules, they would...

Quote
- you're assuming that dogs and other animals used as guards are smart enough to realize that if they smell something but they can't see it, there's someone invisible around.
...well, yes. It's the principle of "relying on senses other than plain sight". They'd probably realise there's something and react (attack?) accordingly.

Quote
- humans and other humanoids are quite common (at least in my campaigns) and being able to not being seen by them is still a great advantage, even with dogs around
Well, thanks for it otherwise invisibility would be useless. That's not the point. The point is that it's not so powerful than other make it sound; no more than Leaping, or Long Door, or any other spell.

Quote
invisibility is not only used to fool guards, it can be used in a lot of other situations, its only limit is the caster creativity (and, since the spell description is extremely vague, the GM must rely on various HR to avoid abuses)
And? It affects only one sense, and people relying mainly in that sense. What you're trying to tell me is that it's a useful spell, something with which I don't disagree. You don't prove me in any way how it's "too" powerful.

I mean, being invisible wouldn't prevent you from falling into traps, or open doors for you. Heck, someone merely bumping you would remove your invisibility, preventing you from being invisible in crowded areas.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2009, 06:04:39 AM by OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol »
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.

Offline Arioch

  • Navigator
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,903
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • Blood & Souls for Arioch!
Re: Invisibility
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2009, 07:30:36 AM »
Quote
Attacks against invisible targets are modified by at least -50, unless the attacker can See Invisible. However, the invisible target must be detected in some way before an attack can even be attempted (via the fringe effect, Detect Invisible, some disturbance, mental detection, etc.).

So yes, dogs would still get the -50 to their attacks, this is just one of the cases where GM have to use a HR of some sort to prevent abuses.

Why would they attack something thay cannot see?

Movement spells like Long Door are much more powerful than invisibility, I think I'll open a thread about them, too  ;D

What you're trying to tell me is that it's a useful spell, something with which I don't disagree. You don't prove me in any way how it's "too" powerful.

As I've said before, I think that what's makes it too powerful is it's duration, not the fact that it makes you invisible. 24 hours for 4 PPs are just too much IMHO.
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

  • Revered Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,221
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Invisibility
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2009, 07:36:20 AM »
Movement spells like Long Door are much more powerful than invisibility, I think I'll open a thread about them, too  ;D
Well, we know you just have a problem with magic anyway...
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.

Offline providence13

  • Navigator
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,944
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Invisibility
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2009, 08:58:37 AM »
Well, the way I see it...
Invisibility could get it's long duration by being so incredibly passive.
It doesn't transport you, provide any info at all, cause damage, cause an effect on others, etc.

Following RM "rules for spells," It maintains a natural progression of escalating power levels based on skill ranks.
At low levels, there is even a decent chance someone will notice your distortion, especially when you move. There have been enough Predator movies for us all to picture this distortion. :)
24 hrs is still a long time. ;D


While I'm not arguing that we have "invisibility" in real life, we are getting really close!
In the US, scientists have been able to get microwaves to bend around a device (2-d tabletop) with minimal distortion and IIRC, Stuttgart has done something similar with infra-red!
Of course if you 'Tube "invisibility cloaks", you'll find some neat TV fabrics that come close.
"The Lore spell assaults your senses- Roll on the spontaneous human combustion table; twice!"

Offline kevinmccollum

  • Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 387
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Invisibility
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2009, 12:34:11 PM »
Honestly, even I restrict the use of the Invisible Ways list in my game. Not necessarily because the spells are "too powerful" but simply for social/political reasons. No king/duke/earl/baron/mayor/village chief wants anyone running around invisibly. It is simply too dangerous to the powers that be. Any caster that obtains that list legally, has to undergo a certain amount of brainwashing and magical conditioning to get it. And of course a small licensing fee......

Online rdanhenry

  • Sage
  • ****
  • Posts: 2,567
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • This sentence is false.
Re: Invisibility
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2009, 01:43:04 PM »
Indeed. If someone is running around invisible, how do we know he isn't naked!

However, -50 to attack is not that big a penalty. By 4th level, the skill-using stealthy Arms or Semi character will have a better parry. Invisibility is better against crowds, but parry is better facing a guard or two in a corridor.

None of this is to say that invisibility isn't useful, but it is hardly a perfect tool, even without anyone able to see invisibility. And while Invisibility starts at 4th level on a Closed Essence list, See Invisible is 5th level on an *Open* Essence list. If your average inhabitant of your world is only 2nd or 3rd level that's not much of an issue, but then a 4th level spell should be impressive. But with a more reasonable spread of level, it means there are probably quite a few more people running around able to see the invisible than able to become invisible. It also is going to be a popular spell to imbed in magic items. The longer duration of Invisibility balances this somewhat.
Rolemaster: When you absolutely, positively need to have a chance of tripping over an imaginary dead turtle.

Offline Arioch

  • Navigator
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,903
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • Blood & Souls for Arioch!
Re: Invisibility
« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2009, 02:35:49 PM »
Indeed. If someone is running around invisible, how do we know he isn't naked!

Yep: naked, octogenarian spell casters going around invisible with the only purpose of leaving disturbing images in the mind of those casting "see invisible"...

I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline mibsweden

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 144
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Invisibility
« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2009, 03:02:44 PM »
Yep: naked, octogenarian spell casters going around invisible with the only purpose of leaving disturbing images in the mind of those casting "see invisible"...

MUAHAHAHAHA!  :D
GM'ing RM since 1984

Offline providence13

  • Navigator
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,944
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Invisibility
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2009, 07:16:41 PM »
If you can see an octogenarian naked spell caster running down the street, follow them. Run after them as fast as you can. Whatever they're running from, you don't stand a chance against!!  ;D
"The Lore spell assaults your senses- Roll on the spontaneous human combustion table; twice!"

Offline Vince

  • Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 401
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Invisibility
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2009, 12:44:41 PM »
This topic has been discussed a few times, bacause it seems unbalanced in a lot of "houses". But is not, it's not an invisibility like the movie "Hollow Man", is more like "Predator". So anyone can walk towards you easily without being detected.

And the proof is the radius, the higher the spell is the lower the radius of invisibilty around the body is.  So lower levels spells move a big amount of space, that is highly noticiable.  Also is very easy to lose, moving, running, fighting, etc.  Invisible is good to help to stalk, but you have still the sound, and other things.


Order of the Iron Crown

(RM2+ Shadow World+ GM)

Offline Arioch

  • Navigator
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,903
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • Blood & Souls for Arioch!
Re: Invisibility
« Reply #30 on: July 01, 2009, 01:46:20 PM »

And the proof is the radius, the higher the spell is the lower the radius of invisibilty around the body is.  So lower levels spells move a big amount of space, that is highly noticiable.  Also is very easy to lose, moving, running, fighting, etc.  Invisible is good to help to stalk, but you have still the sound, and other things.


My main problem with the spell is its duration... 24h are simply to much for a 4th level spell. Invisibility would still be a useful spell with a duration like 1min/level or even 10min/level and would be more balanced IMHO.
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

  • Revered Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,221
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Invisibility
« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2009, 02:52:21 PM »
My main problem with the spell is its duration... 24h are simply to much for a 4th level spell. Invisibility would still be a useful spell with a duration like 1min/level or even 10min/level and would be more balanced IMHO.
But it's easily broken! You stumble? Badaa-am! No more invisibility! You suddenly jerk off the way of an incoming person? Badaa-am! No more invisibility!  You run and suddenly stop? Badaa-am! No more invisibility! If you lower its duration to the duration of any other spell ("1 min/level or even 10 min/level"), then you should remove as well the many ways to cancel it.
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.

Offline Arioch

  • Navigator
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,903
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • Blood & Souls for Arioch!
Re: Invisibility
« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2009, 03:53:08 PM »
Not so easily, according to rules in Spell Law, even performing an Absurd moving maneuver has only a 50% chance of breaking invisibility, most maneuvers will have a 10-20% chance. Performing static maneuvers or stopping from running will not break invisibility.
If the caster just keep moving normally it'll be really easy to keep the invisibility going for all the day (how many times do you stumble into objects/people or fall in one average day?).
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

  • Revered Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,221
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Invisibility
« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2009, 05:20:42 PM »
If the caster just keep moving normally it'll be really easy to keep the invisibility going for all the day (how many times do you stumble into objects/people or fall in one average day?).
Sure, but I doubt someone would use invisibility for an average situation. As for the suggested percentile, I fail to see how striking a blow can be a more violent action than suddenly stopping while dashing, for instance --or jumping from a 2 metres high wall. The way I understand it, the percentiles given in SL are under the logic any manoeuvre, including the non-obviously violent ones, can cause an instantaneous (thus almost imperceptible) yet violent enough shock to cancel invisibility. For instance, the vibrations caused by riding a horse may not feel as obviously violent as receiving a punch, yet still hold a chance of breaking the invisibility spell.

As for bumping into people, well, I usually try to avoid doing so and so are people. If they're not seeing me, I'm pretty sure the chances of them bumping me increase a hundredfold.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 05:32:18 PM by OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol »
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.

Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

  • Revered Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,221
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Invisibility
« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2009, 05:32:51 PM »
(...)
(Sorry, I quoted instead of modifying)
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.

Offline markc

  • Elder Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 10,697
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Invisibility
« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2009, 07:39:01 PM »
 The person who taught me RM2 had a special disadvantage for users of invisibility spells. You had a chance each round of dissapearing and going to a very bad place. In out group non of us found out but the old timers in the game said it was a very bad place.

MDC
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline providence13

  • Navigator
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,944
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Invisibility
« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2009, 10:43:39 PM »
Marc, that's a bit strange... and scary!

Is there a "bad touch" crit table?
No, never mind... there probably is..... :-X
"The Lore spell assaults your senses- Roll on the spontaneous human combustion table; twice!"

Offline markc

  • Elder Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 10,697
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Invisibility
« Reply #37 on: July 02, 2009, 12:08:51 AM »
Marc, that's a bit strange... and scary!

Is there a "bad touch" crit table?
No, never mind... there probably is..... :-X

 I do not know what crit type it used but I would think it would be nether or some other viscous one from one of the RoCo's, it was just how his world worked. I guess you could think of it like in LotR when Frodo put on the ring and the ring wraiths could see him more clearly. So in his game you go invisible and suddenly all the bad things in his world, daemons, devils, etc suddenly can see you and pluck you away to where ever they want to take you.
 All in all no one took the invisibility spell lists or if they had a list that had it on it then they simply did not use it unless it was sure death.
MDC
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline Arioch

  • Navigator
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,903
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • Blood & Souls for Arioch!
Re: Invisibility
« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2009, 02:33:40 AM »
As for the suggested percentile, I fail to see how striking a blow can be a more violent action than suddenly stopping while dashing, for instance --or jumping from a 2 metres high wall. The way I understand it, the percentiles given in SL are under the logic any manoeuvre, including the non-obviously violent ones, can cause an instantaneous (thus almost imperceptible) yet violent enough shock to cancel invisibility.

Ok, but this is a HR, as SL clearly states that only moving maneuvers have a chance of breaking invisibility.
I prefer leaving the chances of breaking invisibility as they are and readucing duration, rather than keeping duration and incrementing the chances that invisibility will break.

As for bumping into people, well, I usually try to avoid doing so and so are people. If they're not seeing me, I'm pretty sure the chances of them bumping me increase a hundredfold.

hundredfold seems an exaggeration to me, it would mean that invisible PCs are a sort of magnet for other people!  ;D

The person who taught me RM2 had a special disadvantage for users of invisibility spells. You had a chance each round of dissapearing and going to a very bad place. In out group non of us found out but the old timers in the game said it was a very bad place.

MDC

Nasty!  ;D
I suppose a magician might, he admitted, but a gentleman never could.

Offline Vince

  • Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 401
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Invisibility
« Reply #39 on: July 02, 2009, 04:00:07 AM »
Not so easily, according to rules in Spell Law, even performing an Absurd moving maneuver has only a 50% chance of breaking invisibility, most maneuvers will have a 10-20% chance. Performing static maneuvers or stopping from running will not break invisibility.
If the caster just keep moving normally it'll be really easy to keep the invisibility going for all the day (how many times do you stumble into objects/people or fall in one average day?).

Where is that rule? I haven't read that before.
We understand the rules that every single time you try to run , you lose the spell, 100% . Not running and then stop like someone said before, just running x2pace.


Order of the Iron Crown

(RM2+ Shadow World+ GM)