Topic: Exhaustion Rules

[Doridian]

Hi all.
Years ago I followed the suggestion to grab a copy of School of Hard Knocks. I promptly did it but the ebbs and flows of real life prevented me to play anymore since then. Recently I've started to juggle with the rulebooks again as a (new) friend of mine asked me to give a try to RMSS. So I turned to SOHK and I've been really struck by the Exhaustion Points rules refinement (I mean that in the SOHK there are ExP modifications for nearly every movement skill - and adrenals).

With SOHK, the overall exhaustion model seems really well shaped. The aspect I like most is the multipliers given by armor wearing, whereas a SL gives a x1 and a PL gives a x5!

Briefly said, the refined exhaustion model seems just a thing I would love (I can imagine a combat where a heavily armored character tires himself sooner than the lighter armored one: tracking ExP expenditures, the tactic to tire the opponent would really work!).

Yet I'm aware that it adds a whole lot of bookkeeping and complexity. And it seems to me that many player choices (in skill development and equipment purchases) would be different with exhaustion in effect or not (so I'm not sure I can decide to add ExP tracking in mid-campaign).

This post is just to ask the true expert here what do they think about Exhaustion rules in RMSS (and SOHK). Do you use them in your games? Would you encourage me to use them or do you think the added complexity is not balanced by the chrome gained?     

Please let me know.
Thank you in advance!

Ciao
Alessandro

P.S.: I remembered that there should be a way to enhance a character ExP, but I'm not anymore able to find out the skill that should be used for this purpose. Am I remembering wrong (i.e.: ExP are a figure based on Character Constitution and nothing more)?

[yammahoper]

I only use ext points when calculating movement.  How long can you run?  Dash?  40 points in a melee round to move at x5 base keeps the players aware such mnvs will tire them and result in loss of effective OB till rested.

Ext Points recover quickly, so beyond using them for movement, I ignore them (unless a special mnv, attack or other moment calls for their application).

I use ACG, which calculates and list Ext Points right on the page for you, along with penalties for current point totals.  Makes it easier of course.

[Doridian]

...
Ext Points recover quickly, so beyond using them for movement, I ignore them (unless a special mnv, attack or other moment calls for their application).
...

I was aroused by the idea of using ExP in melee for the following reasons.
As for SOHK, an unarmed combatant expends 1 ExP every 2 rounds, if using a melee weapon; 1 every 4 if using Martial Arts. An armored combatant, say with plate armor, expends 5x that figure (whereas a chain mail gives x3, etc.).
Assuming an average Common Man (i.e. no Con bonus), by the system he/she has 40 ExP total.
I've not got the rules at hand, so I do not remember exactly the thresholds (for ExP penalties). But it's easy to see that, say, a Warrior Monk can fight for 80 rounds before consuming 50% of the allotment (if he limits to exchange blows, without resorting to adrenals, etc.). And a plated Fighter can endure only 8 rounds before reaching the same threshold (2.5 x 8 = 20). So, if similarly skilled, the Warrior Monk can put everything to defend for such a number of rounds to get the Fighter tired (after 16 rounds the Fighter is at -100).
This kind of mechanics seem to me a really realistic improvement to a system that already is very detailed!
Do you think that, from a player perspective, it could make a difference (to choose the combat equipment - and related skills) to know in advance if ExP are taken in account as for SOHK or not? Even if it comes to ExP only for movement, in your games, by the way combat is resolved, do ExP considerations affect player choices (in equipment and skills)?

[yammahoper]

I have tracked ext pts before, back when Arms Companion first hit the scene and a few campaigns in the late 90's.  My current players have no desire to track them.  They just want to play, ham it up, have some laughs and role play.  As this works great for me, I continue to ignore ext pts most of the time, certainly in melee, and only refer to them when calculating how long it takes to march 14 miles to Bridgeton, or sprint across that meadow, etc.

There is a thread about a new combat tracker for RM.  I bet it tracks ext pts, which of course would make it much easier.  Some kind soul point out the thread please 

[Cory Magel]

I think the percentage of RM players that actually track exhaustion points is pretty small.

I've converted exhaustion points to work with custom made combat styles and specialization.  Essentially they are to those skills as PP's are to spells.  You spend them for certain actions or bonuses in melee.

[Doridian]

In the heart I hoped to read that exhaustion rules are seen positively by players, but it's not so hard to believe you that using them it's more a headache than fun (at least without proper tools or some custom work).

Thank you!

[Cory Magel]

Personally I think they are more tedious than fun, but they are a real headache for the GM.  Each player tracking their own exhaustion is doable, but a GM having to keep track of every single enemies is where I'd draw the line even if I liked them.

[arakish]

To be wholly honest, I am with Corey on Exhaustion.  Tracking exhaustion made it too difficult to do any role playing.

However, like yammahopper, I did use exhaustion points for calculating how far PCs could go at a certain pace (x2.5 to x3) if they were trying to either flee something or trying to get somewhere first to give warning before they had to stop and rest.  I also did use some rules for food and water.  Forget where they are, but the rules for food and water simply equated to "no fuel = no go."  In other words, you cannot maintain a certain pace without also consuming calories to burn.

Otherwise, I have never used Exhaustion except for power usage.

rmfr

[Doridian]

I just wondered if any climactic (or key) fight could be "enhanced" by applying Exhaustion rules. For climactic fights I mean something like the one between two champions to settle the dispute between two whole clans - think at Joe Abercrombie novels plenty of duel circles, like those where Logen Ninefingers used to go frenzy.

[markc]

 IMHO Exh P are a a good rule but can be a pain to track. It dose add extra book keeping but it means that players have to contend with a possible extra penalty the longer the fight goes.
 Exh P, can also be big in a long chase situation or if the party has to run away after a long fight.


 In my past games I have liked them but my players have hated them, I was hoping for  a combat tracking software to help in that regard but I never got around to creating one.
MDC

[MariusH]

We don't use exhausion points much, but do it in the following cases:

1) Movement. How far can you walk/run/sprint etc.
2) Concentration spells. You spend 1 point for each minute concentrating, so this limits your ability to hold certain concentration spells for a prolonged time(when casting "breezes" when on a sailboat, this can be a limitation, for example)
3) In combat when severe exhaustion multipliers are in effect. Usually a combat don't last long enough that exhaustion makes a different, but we HAVE had a combat that dragged on for a long time in extreme heat, and in that situation, we tracked exhaustion, and the players did face penalties due to this.

Does it say anywhere that wearing heavy armour gives you an exhaustion multiplier? I think I've missed that. If it does, then that might give us additional comat situations where exhaustion will be tracked.

[Doridian]

Does it say anywhere that wearing heavy armour gives you an exhaustion multiplier? I think I've missed that. If it does, then that might give us additional comat situations where exhaustion will be tracked.

If I'm not wrong in reading how the School of Hard Knocks has refined the system, it does. But I should double check. For sure it could.
I mean that every fatiguing skill is presented in the book with exhaustion point expenditures (5 every round, 1 every 2 rounds, etc.). Some skills, instead, as they govern (temporary or enduring) modifications to other actions are presented to show that they modify the exhaustion point expenditure: maneuvering in armor is one of them and shows that wearing SL armor does not affect expenditure (i.e. the modifier is x1), RL is x2, CH is x3 and PL is x5.

The doubt I could have is whether the exhaustion modifiers apply to moving maneuvers only or not (i.e. only if you need to roll for something and the roll is affected by the armor MMP). And combat by itself, if I'm not wrong, is not affected by armor MMP. But...

SOHK describes a lot of ways to combine/overlay actions, and it seems to me that it does it smart: an example is the suggestions to fight while moving that automatically cover charge bonuses. So the exhaustion points guidelines seem to get along with this combining/overlaying. At this point I would say that most of it is depending on the game style: it's usual to have characters moving at run pace (it's in every RMSS example). As it's a stressful environ you could ask for a maneuver roll just to see if you stumble (it's not in any RMSS example), as well as you could ask for a maneuver roll to see if a character manages to turn in place and front an enemy at his back before being attacked, etc.

In the end, maybe it's not by the rules RAW (even integrated by SOHK), but it seems to me that affecting the exhaustion costs of Weapon Skill usage by armor modifiers could be reasonable.   

I was a RM/RM2 expert in the far past... I'm no expert anymore (I'm not able to find out time to prepare the game sessions). So accept the lines above just the way I imagine it could be played. This whole thread in the beginning started just to receive comments on the topic from people that actually play RMSS and to try to go beyond the mere drooling I've got every time I pick one of the RMSS books from the shelf and start reading here and there. 

[Doridian]

...it's usual to have characters moving at run pace...

P.S.: I was talking about combat action.

[Doridian]

I've checked. First the modifiers are wrong: SL x1 RL x1.5 CH x2 PL x3.
Second I would say that exhaustion modifiers by armor affects only maneuvers (not attacks). But during combat a lot of maneuvering could take place. So armor modifiers to exhaustion could make the difference the same.

[MariusH]

We don't have SoHK. Guess maybe I should take a look at it. Thanks.

[Ravenheart]

Our group's been using custom exhaustion rules. It still requires book keeping but we're fine with it. To summarize:
The check is made after each 3 rounds of combat (we use Action Point system, so to us it's 120AP's). Check is basically Con based RR versus fatigue: 50 + d100 + CO stat bonus (RM2) + Endurance skill ranks x 2 (5 ranks = +10). Any roll over 100 is a success and no problems. Every 3 rounds of continuous action, the check is repeated with increasing difficulty rating (next roll is Hard -10, after that it's Very Hard with -20 etc..).
Failing the check results in Winded condition that deals -5 to all actions and +2 to fumble Range.
After Winded condition, difficulty rating resets to Medium and if the struggle still goes on, the checks are made versus Tired condition which is much worse. Repeat until struggle is over or character is Unconscious.
Fatigue levels can be "cured" with simple rest or refreshments (water). Some Adrenal Moves checks give an extra help in serious situations.  Awaken spell can be used to refresh the fatigue off and we've also got some alchemical potions to spend money on.

Of course, many other things take effect on resisting fatigue which are not mentioned in this short reply like weather, AT and overall encumbrance.

Exhaustion is so central concept in any physical action that in our opinion, for good simulation, it must be taken on count.