Author Topic: Paladins in Middle Earth?  (Read 5708 times)

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Offline Hurin

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Paladins in Middle Earth?
« on: January 07, 2016, 05:36:04 PM »
So my gaming group is looking to start a game in Middle Earth, c. 1600 of the Third Age. I'd like to play a Paladin (Rolemaster), but I'm having a hard time fitting him into the lore. I was thinking of perhaps making him a knight of Dol Amroth. Has Dol Amroth ever been covered in the old MERP modules? Or is there any better background anyone can think of? What character in Tolkien's books comes closest to being a Paladin?
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Offline egdcltd

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Re: Paladins in Middle Earth?
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2016, 05:23:24 AM »
There was Assassins of Dol Amroth, but I think that was just an adventure module. I tend to associate Paladins with religion, and I can't really thing of anything that religious, at least from the point of worshippers, in Middle-earth. Although maybe the LoTR appendices or The Silmarillion has something.
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Offline Witchking20k

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Re: Paladins in Middle Earth?
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2016, 10:20:35 AM »
I use the Ranger Profession as a template for skill development (assuming you're using MERP).  You can select 4 paladin lists pretty easily and have them worship Orome the Huntsman via an Avatar Spirit (which is common in ME).  If you are using MERP spell lists only then Detection Mastery, Surface Ways, Protections and Spell Defence could be the 4 Base Lists.  Typically magic granted by the Valar cannot harm in anyway.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Paladins in Middle Earth?
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2016, 12:31:30 PM »
Thanks for the help guys; unfortunately, I am still a bit stuck trying to fit a Paladin into the lore. I just found that Dol Amroth is covered in the Havens of Gondor module. Unfortunately, the knights of Dol Amroth are more secular knights.

I'm playing RM2 (eventually RMU) by the way.

Where would I find info on Avatar Spirits?
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

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Offline egdcltd

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Re: Paladins in Middle Earth?
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2016, 01:12:41 PM »
It really doesn't look as if religion in Middle-earth extended beyond a temple of Eru in Numenor, and the worship of Morgoth. So a religious warrior is going to be a bit tricky - unless you want more of an anti-paladin.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Paladins in Middle Earth?
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2016, 02:21:35 PM »
Yeah, that is the hard part.

By the way, are all the old ICE Middle Earth modules available for purchase as .pdf? Or did the end of the Tolkien license mean ICE can't sell that stuff anymore?
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline egdcltd

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Re: Paladins in Middle Earth?
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2016, 04:15:55 PM »
No, they can't be legally acquired as pdfs.
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Offline jdale

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Re: Paladins in Middle Earth?
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2016, 06:36:51 PM »
How do you handle channeling in general? Where do clerics and priests (if any) get their power? To some extent, a paladin is just a martially-oriented priest.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Paladins in Middle Earth?
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2016, 07:59:49 PM »
I think that you can still say Channelers get their power from their god, as there are more than a dozen major gods and surely many minor ones in the Tolkien mythos. The problem (at least from my perspective) is that Tolkien seems to speak of religion rarely, and describe religious rituals/practices even more rarely. He seems rarely to mention things like churches and temples. So I'm not exactly sure how the gods were worshipped, other than the Elves singing songs in their honor.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline egdcltd

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Re: Paladins in Middle Earth?
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2016, 03:44:21 AM »
Yes, Tolkien appears to have deliberately not incorporated religion into Middle-earth. I found this post: http://askmiddlearth.tumblr.com/post/60858926029/why-no-institutionalized-religion-in-middle-earth with some quotes from him. According to this, Eru, in Tolkien's eyes, was the only real god, with the Valar being treated more like saints.
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Offline egdcltd

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Re: Paladins in Middle Earth?
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2016, 08:45:16 AM »
Apparently, the White Tree has tremendous religious value. It's possible you could incorporate paladins into an order related to that tree.
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Offline jdale

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Re: Paladins in Middle Earth?
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2016, 10:51:43 AM »
If religion isn't organized, then you could also have a paladin be a warrior who is "blessed" by a Vala, something which they have earned by upholding a set of ideals and carrying themself with humility. They might be part of an order, which would provide a set of ideals, but it might be something unique to the individual. Even if they are part of an order, the blessing could be unique to the individual and not something that everyone in the order receives. Structure and organized religion might make it easier to find the divine, but ultimately the power comes from the divine and not from a church. That seems consistent with what Tolkien was doing.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Paladins in Middle Earth?
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2016, 11:14:27 AM »
Interesting suggestions! Thanks for them.

I'm thinking that I might see if my DM is cool with an order dedicated to opposing and hunting out the minions of Morgoth/Sauron. I am thinking of a group founded after the appearance of the Istari (Wizards), which believes/understands that the Wizards are sent from Valinor to help in this struggle, and that tries to aid the Wizards in any way they can. These would be kind of the shock troops of the White Council.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Witchking20k

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Re: Paladins in Middle Earth?
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2016, 01:13:14 PM »
The Valar as Saints is a good analogy.  As per the core MERP book there are 2 ways to derive magic- drawing power directly from the song of creation (essence) or drawing from the Valar (channeling).  I'd use a Jedi-esque approach and make them more like monks than classic paladins.  Men seem pre-disposed to religion (and it was a tool used to corrupt them in the East).  You could also have them draw power from an artifact (a simiril?) that has it's own will. 
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Offline arakish

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Re: Paladins in Middle Earth?
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2016, 03:49:31 AM »
... These would be kind of the shock troops of the White Council.

What about ones turned to follow Saruman?  That might be cool, too.

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I always viewed the Valar as being the Arch-Angels and Angels, with the ones turned by Morgoth being Devils and Demons.

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Offline Witchking20k

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Re: Paladins in Middle Earth?
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2016, 08:28:30 AM »
That is also a good analogy.  Eru is the one god in ME.  The other Valar are greater servants who also lent their voices to the song of creation (hence why Morgoths perversions cannot be wholly undone) and the Maiar are basically their servants.  Sauron was Maiar and a disciple of Aule before being corrupted by Morgoth if I recall.  One thing that is unique about ME religion is that the Valar a& Maiar are basically forbidden from bending the peoples to their will.  So, there is a lack of formal hierarchy in religion; it tends to be informal, and personal in nature, and only public in celebrations etc. 

You also have to consider that there is a separation in the "civilization" of ME.  From Erebor west is considered to be the homelands of the "enlightened" people; who know of the true nature of the Valar.  The East (which is enormous) is considered un-enlightened and  would likely have all sorts of cults and locale spirits active.  Some would be instruments of Sauron, but many would be people naturally turning to worship based on their culture (weather, harvest, totems etc.)- these religions would actually be worshipping the Valar through locale spirits (Maiar).  The Valar were tasked with the stewardship of ME and sent many Maiar as agents aside from the Istari.

All this to say- there is a lot of room for creative license without worrying about disturbing the core material of ME too much.  The big thing is to observe that the Valar cannot grant power to destroy or create as those two aspects defy the song of creation.  So, based on my recollection of the Paladin lists you'd probably be OK with most of them as augment the paladin them self.  However, you'd likely be unable to use the attack spells on anything born of the song of creation (men, elves, animals, etc) but only on things corrupted by Morgoth or his servants (Orcs, Wargs, etc).
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Paladins in Middle Earth?
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2016, 10:03:20 AM »
But we do know of at least one Valar (Morgoth) and several Maiar (Sauron, Saruman, the balrogs) who did bend people to their will, as well as both create and destroy. I guess by 'forbidden' you mean more in a legal sense?
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Witchking20k

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Re: Paladins in Middle Earth?
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2016, 08:54:17 AM »
Exactly- Eru forbids it and all of those mentioned are "evil".  I took a look at my own material and found that I use Rangers as "paladins" for Orome the Hunter.  No brainer there.  But, Tulkas is the Champion of the Valar, and I used the Monk with a slightly altered DP array.  Spell Lists were the Monk lists.  Really, the word Paladin implies the knightly warrior- so if that is what you are after, I would check in to the Noble Warrior from RM2.  They would fit nicely in to Dol Amroth or Minas Tirith.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Paladins in Middle Earth?
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2016, 10:55:56 AM »
I loved the Noble Warrior class from RM2, but we're going to be playing RMU (hopefully it is released in time-- this won't be for a while yet), so I'm not sure that class will be available. I actually hope to draw up a homebrew Noble Warrior for RMU when it is published though, so maybe I'll try that.

I did think of the knights of Dol Amroth too, but they really seem to be more secular knights.

I want to actually play a Paladin class, though, because I really like the RMU Paladin spells. I think I'll run the idea past my GM of an order of knights dedicated to aiding the Istari and fighting the minions of Sauron. That pretty much covers the demons and undead part of the Paladin, and gives the class a link to the gods (via the Istari).

'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Witchking20k

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Re: Paladins in Middle Earth?
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2016, 02:01:23 PM »
If you have access to the Lords of Middle Earth Volume I it references a Dunedain religion and gives a quick over-view.  It also has a blurb on how the Valar are mistaken as gods and Eru as the one god etc.

I can't recall the Paladin lists from RMU off hand.  But, if they are similar to the RMSS set than I would allow them as a GM.
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