Topic: why three realms of magic?

[Ecthelion]

Balance is unrealistic: the world isn't balanced, no world is.

That may be true. But we're not talking about real world but about a game system. And for games good balancing is IMO more important than realism. Look at World of Warcraft: Surely it's not realistic, but it's well balanced and it's fun.

[Cory Magel]

Balance is unrealistic: the world isn't balanced, no world is.

That may be true. But we're not talking about real world but about a game system. And for games good balancing is IMO more important than realism. Look at World of Warcraft: Surely it's not realistic, but it's well balanced and it's fun.

Yup. Making an unbalanced game is pointless imo.  Games are about fun.  Imbalance eventually leads to un-fun in the vast majority of situations.  (Also: See my handle = Fun > Balance > Realism).

  As a result most casters (which aren't even Semi's) either learn to manipulate Arcane or die trying.

    I want to game in your world!!!

I have loved the way RM handled magic since I started playing.  Once the thought of Arcane magic came into being, the GMs had another way to address magic and to introduce an entire society into the game.  The "ancients" or the original druids who utilized magic as simply raw energy that could be manipulated without shackles and constraints on what the caster wears, or what the caster could study or how the caster tapped into that power.  I fell in love with the archmage at that point. Magic is simply magic, don't overthink, son.  Just let it flow.

The way I have it setup is about 20% of the human population is capable of magic, but most don't realize it.  So they learn simple stuff and are, basically, the village 'mystic' or whatever.  Someone who is an unnaturally good healer, a charm maker, etc.  Since they don't know what they are doing they draw upon generic raw power, Arcane.  If they realize they are actually drawing upon magic and try to make a go of it themselves they often kill themselves (or possibly others) trying.

About 1% of that 20% become Semis and 1% of them Pure/Hybrids.  Most these casters find some kind of teacher and use the other three realms as, over time, the 'magic' community learned it needed to separate the 'parts' of Arcane in order to have a more stabilized/controllable power source.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

That may be true. But we're not talking about real world but about a game system. And for games good balancing is IMO more important than realism.

Balance what? The world? The classes? The weapons? A level 99 is not balanced compared to a level 1, nor does an unarmoured unarmed farmer compared to a full plate warrior wielding a sword and a shield.

Yup. Making an unbalanced game is pointless imo.  Games are about fun.  Imbalance eventually leads to un-fun in the vast majority of situations.  (Also: See my handle = Fun > Balance > Realism).

Did you read the part where I said that balance doesn't come from the system's mechanics? As well as the part about balance in the world, as opposed as balance in a team?

As for realism, isn't RM about it? It's a bit annoying to see RM players saying that RM is far superior to all other RPGs (usually, merely meaning D&D) because it's realistic then being answered when pointing out something is hardly realistic that, sure, but it's because it's balanced. Without, you know, any kind of further justification.

Sorry to say, but IMO Ecthelion and you are merely throwing "balance" as a catchall word without trying to think about what is or should be balanced, and probably even without having tried.

[jdale]

I've been playing in a D&D 3.5 campaign recently, a game which I think epitomizes imbalance. One of the characters was a ranger, designed primarily as an archer, and another character is a warlock. The warlock has unlimited moderate damage ranged attacks to hundreds of feet with high accuracy (because they are ranged touch attacks), plus some magic abilities on the side. The ranger has limited (by ammunition) low damage ranged attacks with normal accuracy. In terms of the world, the rational thing to do is stop training archers and start training warlocks, because they are better. But in terms of the game, you have a player who picked a class because they enjoyed the concept and style, and got shafted because the system put him at a huge disadvantage. He was only able to make a small contribution to the party, gained little story share, and lagged in XP widening the effectiveness gap. Final outcome? The ranger is dead. (And let's not even talk about the poor ninja.)

Yeah, I think balance is important for fun.

[gog]

I was wondering about the differences between the three realms of magic. And I really can't find out a good reason why magic have to be divided in different realms.

From reading the RM material the basic reason seems to be the source of the casters power. That Mentalism comes from internal source, that Essence is drawn from the surrounding environment and that Channelling is gifted by an external source. Thus the three realms.

[vector]

As for realism, isn't RM about it? It's a bit annoying to see RM players saying that RM is far superior to all other RPGs (usually, merely meaning D&D) because it's realistic then being answered when pointing out something is hardly realistic that, sure, but it's because it's balanced. Without, you know, any kind of further justification.

I can't speak for all Rolemaster players, but I like RM because it allows for a gritty, "realistic" fantasy game. Every time I make a post and have to address "realism" in a fantasy game, I always put realism or realistic in quotes.

The appeal for me is that RM combat mechanics allow for more "realistic" options and therefore more strategy and more fun for me and my players. I just can't go back to more simplistic combat systems.

But I never thought that Rolemaster's Fantasy "Realism" was ever truly realistic. It is a fantasy role playing game, not an attempt to simulate physics and combat in the real world.

Fun experiment, find the best fighter at the nearest medieval fighting organization, give him the best sword and shield you can find, and take him to the nearest zoo.

Drop him in the rhino enclosure and tell him to eff up that rhino!

Now best case scenario, after he is released from the hospital and you are untangling yourself from the legal mess, imagine him taking on a cave troll or red dragon. Heck, the ancients were often more "realistic" about someone's chances; Even Sigurd ambushed the dragon from a hidden pit.

The vast majority of what fantasy role players and movie action heroes do isn't even remotely realistic.

There is realism, and then there is fantasy "realism", or "dramatic realism", or whatever you want to call it.

A big part of any fantasy role playing game will have to be balance as long as the players expect to have more than one role to play.

[juza]

I can't understand why having only one realm of power will unbalance the game. One realm of power obviously will have the rules of Arcane magic, so every spell user must have 4 prime stat that must start at 90 so all the other stats will be week. Of course a mentalism user will have access to some spell a bit stronger than the ones he is used to, but at the same time he also has malus for casting while wearing an armor, the same a channeling user. Maybe essence users are a bit advantaged although the most powerful spells usually are in base lists and each profession will keep his base lists so differences between classes will remain.
Having all magic as arcane is also a good method for underline the fact that magic yes is powerful but at the same time is difficult to manage and only few people can learn it.

[Cory Magel]

Did you read the part where I said...

I wasn't replying to you, so no.

As for realism, isn't RM about it?

Realistic? No. I mean, fireballs. Right?  MORE realistic that some games? Uh, duh. D&D, for example, you fought just fine to 1 HP, then did a belly flop all the sudden.  RM brings a little more realism to that.  But is it fully realistic?  Hardly.

Sorry to say, but IMO Ecthelion and you are merely throwing "balance" as a catchall word without trying to think about what is or should be balanced, and probably even without having tried.

I suppose maybe you don't understand what we're generally referring to seeing as you think it's a 'catchall', when it's not.  It seems to be you that's applying such a broad brush.  Maybe you don't understand the idea of a balanced game if you think we're saying a level 1 and level 99 being should be equal, rather than balanced.

[Cory Magel]

My question to you, Cory, would be: so you think that going without RM's magic classification would because unbalance problem but did you actually try doing so?

I'll go back and answer this.

When I talk about balance in a RPG I'm, seemingly obvious to me, talking about two things that should be roughly the same power level.  A 10th Level Fighter vs. a 10 Level Magician for example.  You seem to be claiming our idea of balance is everything is equal.  That a level 1 critter should be able to stand up to a level 99 one.  I have no idea where you get that idea, but it's a bit absurd and the fact that you do think this makes me suspect you don't understand the idea of balance in a system.

Most RM users experience the problem of Pure Arms Users being the most powerful at low level, Pure/Hybrid Casters being the most powerful at mid to high levels, and Semi's at the highest levels.  They are not balanced as well as most would like to them to be.  The reason is the selection of tools they have at their disposal.  As the characters progress the casters gain not just more powerful abilities, but a much broader range of them.  When a fighter gains level in a weapon they get more OB.  That's it.  A caster gains a variety of spells in a list.  A fighter can learn multiple weapons... that all do the same thing.  Damage.  The caster can learn multiple lists that all have multiple options.  Then you have a Semi who, given enough levels, gets both.  Yes, eventually they'll all be equal, but you'd have to be pretty high level.

Now imagine giving those casters access to even MORE options not normally found in their realm.  Power creep sometimes rears it's ugly head, but generally there are limitations to each realm in order to avoid this. You won't have healing in Essence.  You won't have Invisibility in Channeling.  You don't have Fireballs in Mentalism.  This is to avoid one character being able to access all the best spells.