Author Topic: How many DP do you give per level?  (Read 14552 times)

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Offline Spectre771

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Re: How many DP do you give per level?
« Reply #120 on: June 02, 2015, 08:28:47 AM »
This seems a bit ironic, given the number of Pathfinder books that the character creation rules are split between. I just started playing in a small Pathfinder game and our three PCs are based on material spread out over at least a dozen books. Finding just the right feat or trait could mean combing through many more -- it's only manageable because there are good online and software resources for it. The GM, who is a long-time D&D and Pathfinder veteran, and has only played a few sessions of RM in my RMU game, says that RMU is the simpler game of the two.

We did D&D Beta for several months then a stint of Pathfinder that ended around Christmas time.  All totaled, about 20+ months of the two.  All I will say is that I stopped caring about going up levels in both systems.  I just let the longtime players tell me what would work well for my PC.  If I had options, they offered them and I picked.  If there was one feat I wanted, I had to make sure I had Minimum # in Stat A, feat B, Feat C, Improved Feat C, then maybe I had all the pre-reqs to get Feat D.  And that info was spread out over several books.  It was too much of a pain in the behind to look for the feats that were spread out all over the place.

I was not impressed and I thought it was worse then RM2.  Yes, I know the RM2 system better so maybe not a fair comparison, but after 9 months of Pathfinder, it was nothing more than D&D.  I thought we were still playing D&D early on until one of the guys said "You can't do that.  That's only in D&D.  Pathfinder does this."  I honestly thought Pathfinder was a D&D expansion pack or something.

That being said, leveling up in RM can be made "not daunting" if the GM does a little preemptive work and says "as you go through the list of skills, write down on your character sheet the ones you would like to get at a later date and put the cost next to it.  That way, when you level up, if you still want to buy 1-2 ranks in it, you already have the info."  It started to make a huge difference and leveling up was no longer as big a bear to tackle.  Once the Temp stats maxed out to the Potentials, it was even easier. :)

I've also photocopied all of the Skills and Skill Descriptions from the extra Companions and stuck them in a binder.  If a player wants to see what skills are out there, I hand him/her one binder and RMC-II and everything is there.  All those Companions are optional anyway and not needed to play the core game. Having RMC-II is a must and can easily be the furthest one has to go as far as Companions are concerned.  There's a large selection of skills included, the costs, the descriptions, the charts and any optional Professions that are included in newer Companions all say "Refer to <base Profession> for costs" and those base Professions are all listed in RMC-II.  Piece of cake.

I've played D&D Beta and Pathfinder steadily for over two years.  I think that is enough time for me to form an educated opinion on the game system.  It's just as complex and as confusing to a new player as RM2 is to a new player.  It has the same flaws as RM2 with multiple books and rules all over the place.  I just don't like the D&D/Pathfinder game system and I think RM2 is a much better game system.  It's more complex and more detailed but allows so much more freedom.  I found a way to make RM2 work for me and found ways to make it easier for my players.  Of the nine new players to RM2 from a few months ago, I would say 4 love the system, 3 really liked it and would give it another go, 1 I'm not sure on but he had a blast playing, and 1 is a definite 'no' because he had RMC books and didn't like that I had to nerf his PC and had to change some of his RMC rules so he quit playing.  And these are ALL die hard, 35+ years gaming together, D&D players, so 8 out of 9 D&D'ers adjusted to and enjoyed playing RM2.



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Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: How many DP do you give per level?
« Reply #121 on: June 02, 2015, 09:32:48 AM »
We never had issues leveling up, mainly because I did the same thing Spectre771 did and had players plan their future skills to a degree. I also put together Profession-specific handouts that listed the skills and such and made sure each player had one (we redid the skills and Professions to a degree, so handing them the Companions wouldn't have been much help).
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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: How many DP do you give per level?
« Reply #122 on: June 02, 2015, 01:50:07 PM »
Foraging as mentioned above with the different envioronments; there are some general principles that are global such as water flows down hill, vegetation grows more lushly when water is available, valleys that are V shapped were carved by rivers, U shaped valleys were carved by Glaciers (and are often dry). All rodents are edible as are all birds and their eggs and so on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_bird

Your skill in one environment just led to your confidently poisoning the whole party in another. Maybe environment does matter.
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: How many DP do you give per level?
« Reply #123 on: June 02, 2015, 02:44:59 PM »
Foraging as mentioned above with the different envioronments; there are some general principles that are global such as water flows down hill, vegetation grows more lushly when water is available, valleys that are V shapped were carved by rivers, U shaped valleys were carved by Glaciers (and are often dry). All rodents are edible as are all birds and their eggs and so on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_bird

Your skill in one environment just led to your confidently poisoning the whole party in another. Maybe environment does matter.

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Offline Peter R

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Re: How many DP do you give per level?
« Reply #124 on: June 02, 2015, 04:03:17 PM »
Foraging as mentioned above with the different envioronments; there are some general principles that are global such as water flows down hill, vegetation grows more lushly when water is available, valleys that are V shapped were carved by rivers, U shaped valleys were carved by Glaciers (and are often dry). All rodents are edible as are all birds and their eggs and so on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_bird

Your skill in one environment just led to your confidently poisoning the whole party in another. Maybe environment does matter.

The toxin is in the skin and feathers which you shouldn't eat any way. The probability of fumbling a cookery roll is far greater than finding an extremely rare toxic bird or fictional genetically toxic rodent so I would just blame the party cook. If I had to find the food there is no way I am going to cook it too. What am I the party slave?
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Offline markc

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Re: How many DP do you give per level?
« Reply #125 on: June 02, 2015, 04:29:21 PM »
It depends on how good the rest of the party is at cooking.
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Offline Peter R

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Re: How many DP do you give per level?
« Reply #126 on: June 02, 2015, 04:36:20 PM »
Not really, I can still blame the cook. I could swear blind on the paladin's life there was nothing wrong with the bird when I handed it over. It must be something the cook did to it. Just think how many dungeons, swamps and planes beyond the pale he has been through and he still has the same bag of herbs and spices he had when the character was created.

It must be his fault.
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Offline markc

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Re: How many DP do you give per level?
« Reply #127 on: June 03, 2015, 12:13:10 AM »
Actually what I was saying is that if no one else can cook, you just might catch and cook.
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Offline Peter R

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Re: How many DP do you give per level?
« Reply #128 on: June 03, 2015, 12:55:21 AM »
And my point was that there are general principles that can be followed, they may change from planet to planet but they are just general principles not fundamental principles of the universe. The only examples of breaks in those general principles that have been offered are a fictitious rat and and parts of an extremely rare bird that you shouldn't eat anyway. I do not see how that proves the general principle is wrong.

Earlier someone said that all skills add something to the game and I don't think that is true. Take Interrogation. You have two choices as I see it. You can role play it or you can roll the dice. I have chosen to use the roleplay route.

In my current game the sorceress (a PC) tried to get information from a captured half orc. As it happened the orc knew its bosses would probably kill it for failing in its mission so was willing to talk but neither of them spoke a shared language.The sorceress cut off three of the orcs fingers before getting frustrated and cutting his throat. There was no dice rolling involved and no need to find an alternative, similar skill. Just role play.

In other games the GM can use the Interrogation skill and that is fine but I feel it detracts from the roleplaying so I have chosen to exclude it.
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Offline Peter R

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Re: How many DP do you give per level?
« Reply #129 on: June 03, 2015, 01:00:42 AM »
Actually what I was saying is that if no one else can cook, you just might catch and cook.
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If no one in the party can cook then I also do not see why it should fall to me. I'm out all day trying to put food on the table and when I get home you expect me to do the cooking too? I can imagine Markc's character could end up being asked to sleep in the spare room!
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Offline markc

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Re: How many DP do you give per level?
« Reply #130 on: June 03, 2015, 01:30:53 AM »
Wow  ;D , I was just trying to say that I like good cooking and prefer to eat good cooking. So even if I went out and caught the food and everyone else was a poor cook I would generally cook the meal also.
Good food prepared badly tends to make me a sad person, that me an not my PC's.


I am sorry you took my comments the wrong way.
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Offline Peter R

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Re: How many DP do you give per level?
« Reply #131 on: June 03, 2015, 02:17:36 AM »
I didn't take it the wrong way. I was joking. It seemed funny from when I was typing it.

No offence was taken I assure you.
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: How many DP do you give per level?
« Reply #132 on: June 03, 2015, 07:13:36 AM »
It depends on how good the rest of the party is at cooking.
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: How many DP do you give per level?
« Reply #133 on: June 03, 2015, 07:27:33 AM »
Peter R and markc bring up great points that can be "rolled" out even further in gameplay.  If the animal "is" poisonous, could the cook use Detect Poison?  Fauna Lore to know what parts are poisonous?  Look at the Japanese blow fish.  Sushi delicacy and a death sentence if the sushi master screws up.  How about Use/Remove Poison?  Does Cooking Skill remove the poison?  There is a plant called a Fiddlehead that is toxic when fully grown, but delicious when it's tiny.  The fully grown plant is still edible, but the "goo" has to be boiled out of it then it becomes edible again.

There are some liberties that can certainly be taken with Foraging Skill and it really does come down to the GM and the gamestyle.  I would allow 1 rank in Foraging to apply to all regions, but I would make the difficulty very high for severe regions like desert and frozen tundra.  The player can certainly specialize in Foraging-Tundra, Foraging-Desert when buying skills and RM2 allows for specialization and in those instances, I let the player use the higher skill.  I allow players to Take General Perception, Hearing Perception, Smell Perception.  If they spend the points on it, I will find a way to let them use it.  If they don't have it, I let them make an attempt with a penalty.  If they cross planes, then the difficulty is extreme.
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: How many DP do you give per level?
« Reply #134 on: June 03, 2015, 04:09:07 PM »
Earlier someone said that all skills add something to the game and I don't think that is true. Take Interrogation. You have two choices as I see it. You can role play it or you can roll the dice. I have chosen to use the roleplay route.

In my current game the sorceress (a PC) tried to get information from a captured half orc. As it happened the orc knew its bosses would probably kill it for failing in its mission so was willing to talk but neither of them spoke a shared language.The sorceress cut off three of the orcs fingers before getting frustrated and cutting his throat. There was no dice rolling involved and no need to find an alternative, similar skill. Just role play.

In other games the GM can use the Interrogation skill and that is fine but I feel it detracts from the roleplaying so I have chosen to exclude it.
As with many things, I do a bit of a combination. The player will get to roleplay out as much as they want (I will not force them to RP situations they might not like). If they do something particularly good - which depends upon the target of the interrogation (or whatever social skill being used) as much as the situation at hand - then I will give them a bonus to the roll, if they do something particularly bad, the opposite. It is entirely possible that they still mess up and I find that part of the fun is using my (and the players) imagination to come up with an entertaining description of how. I see the appeal of just roleplaying it, but we are talking about real people sitting down at a game table who likely don't have anywhere near the types of skills their characters do, so punishing the player who isn't great at interacting with others (and there are plenty of them out there, yours truly can be counted among them) by not allowing them to even have access to a part of the game doesn't seem right.

As far as the Foraging/Survival goes, yeah, I too think there are general principles that carry over which is why I generally go with using the most similar skill and just giving it a modifier. It helps keep down the skill bloat and doesn't nerf the PCs, imo.
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: How many DP do you give per level?
« Reply #135 on: June 04, 2015, 07:02:26 AM »
As with many things, I do a bit of a combination. The player will get to roleplay out as much as they want (I will not force them to RP situations they might not like). If they do something particularly good - which depends upon the target of the interrogation (or whatever social skill being used) as much as the situation at hand - then I will give them a bonus to the roll, if they do something particularly bad, the opposite.

I do similar as well with Interrogation and Social skills.  Starting out as a GM, a player wanted to disarm a trap so I asked what he did.  He said "I do what I need to to disarm it."  I pressed him for details and he replied with "I look at the trap and roll Disarm Trap.  I don't know what the trap looks like and I don't know how to disarm a trap, that's why I bought the skill."

Touché.

He was right.  He was a biology student in college, not a master art thief in Rome.  He bought the skill so the PC could disarm traps, not so David L. would have the knowledge to disarm traps.

Fast forward to the most recent experience with D&D/Pathfinder I just came out of.  The GM was a stickler for roleplaying.  My Barbarian wanted to use Intimidation skill to threaten the inn owner into letting me stay the night for reduced cost. 

"Well what do you say?" 
I tell him the he should let me stay the night for 1 silver.
"But what do you say?"
I say "You're going to let me stay the night for a silver." 

(Keep in mind, the party was already level 7-8 and well known in the town for having cleared out 2-3 major bad guy havens and had a huge reputation and following.  My PC's STR was 20, I had ridiculous fighting skills, huge weapons, a loin cloth,  and was known for 1-swing kills.  We had bards follow us so they could retell our adventures!!!)

"OK, I got that, but what do you say?"
Can't I just roll Intimidation skill?
"Well, I need to know what you say."

WTF!!!!  I say "Let me stay for 1 silver or I kill you!"  (Now I'm getting ticked off at the GM)
(GM rolls some dice) "Yeah, the inn keeper says you don't frighten me, get out."



We had players new to gaming where this was the first RPG they had ever played, and were joining a group who had been gaming for 30+ years together.  The new guys felt out of their element, really didn't understand the game, let alone felt comfortable "acting out" the scenes, and the GM penalized them for not being good actors.  The reason we play FANTASY games is that it is a fantasy, not real, not me, not you, but "Fendar the Great" and "Bondo the Dwarf" and "Merollin the Poor Wizard".  THOSE are the guys who have to succeed or fail in the game world, not Jim, not David, not Kevin.

I don't force players to role play either, but it is fun when they do.  If they chose to ad-lib a bit and they throw in some funny zingers, then I give them a bonus to their Interrogation roll.  If they come up with something I hadn't thought of, I give them bonus XP at the end of the session.  I encourage the added fun, but I certainly don't penalize them if they didn't convince me they were going to kill me if I didn't let them have a room for 1 silver.
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Offline tbigness

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Re: How many DP do you give per level?
« Reply #136 on: June 04, 2015, 09:53:43 AM »
Diddo here. If a character has the skill bought and paid for then roleplaying it out is only flair to the story. The roll is what really counts on success or failure. That is why skills are important and players need to have DP's enough to get skills to be able to be playable.
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Offline jdale

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Re: How many DP do you give per level?
« Reply #137 on: June 04, 2015, 10:05:28 AM »
Would you also let a player skip describing and specifying their actions in combat because they have Strategy skill and just want to roll against that? There has to be something that you describe or play out, otherwise it's clearly a roll-playing game and not role-playing.

The exact balance is something that needs to be worked out between the GM and players, and you don't want it to be a barrier to participation, but I think it's a fundamental part of the game. That said, working together could mean, for example, that if the player says "I have no idea how I would handle a trap", when the player rolls the GM can describe what actions they take and what happens based on how well they rolled and how skilled they are. Now, next time it comes up, the player knows something about how it works and about what the GM expects.

Same thing with intimidation, in your example after rolling the GM might say "you look the innkeeper in the eye for a long moment, and then lean in so close he can feel your breath on his face, and is uncomfortably aware of how much bigger you are than he is, and speaking very slowly in a low tone you repeat 'you're going to let me stay the night for one silver'. He squeaks out 'ok, second door on the right!'."  Or maybe it ends, "He looks unimpressed, and you hear the sound of a bell that must be located behind the counter, maybe he hit it with his knee or something. He says, 'five silver and not a tin piece less' as the biggest half-orc you've ever seen comes in through a side door. It says, 'trouble boss?'." Either way, the GM has given the player some guidance about how the skill can be played, and that will encourage the player to step up their game.
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: How many DP do you give per level?
« Reply #138 on: June 04, 2015, 10:58:39 AM »
Would you also let a player skip describing and specifying their actions in combat because they have Strategy skill and just want to roll against that? There has to be something that you describe or play out, otherwise it's clearly a roll-playing game and not role-playing.

There is a stark contrast to telling a GM that you would like to do this and that and describing what you want to do for the round by trying to lure the army down this pass, and telling the innkeeper I want the room for a silver piece.... versus acting on stage at the community theater house.  The GM I had, penalized the players for not ACTING.  Actually not ACTING out the role.  I bought a skill, why do I need to take drama classes in college for 3 semesters just to get a room for 1 silver piece for one night?  Why do I need to start a career in petty theft just to learn how to pick a lock or disarm a trap?

In the example of the trap I gave, I was early on in my GM-ing experience and *I* knew what the trap looked like, I created in my head.  I wanted the player to tell me what he does to disarm it.  Well, that just wasn't fair of me to ask of him.  He had the skill, he rolled it and succeeded.  I told him how he went about disarming the trap.

As for the innkeeper, I tried the acting out a portion of it, but my acting skills weren't good enough for his liking.  "I go up the innkeeper, and stand at my full 6'8" height and look down at him, clenching my muscles, making sure he sees the blood of my enemies and battle scars and I tell him 'you will let me have the room for a night.'"

That, to the GM, was just saying what I wanted to do... I wasn't acting it out well enough for him.  I lost interest in the game at that point.

For the Strategy roll, I listen to the idea, have them roll Strategy, if it's a high roll, I give them some ideas that "this may work better, you look over the map and notice this here, so that may work better" and I'll give a bonus to the ambush, or to defense, or whatever.  I don't make them go out to the back yard and build mountains and drag a cart laden with goods around so they can show me their strategy, then act out the planning process.  Any GM needs to know where the armies, groups, players are set up and I'll give a bonus somehow for good Strategy rolls as well as good strategy (thinking/planning).  To me, that's more fair. 

Adding flair is great is often times rewarded (I try my best to encourage it), but I don't penalize people if they can't act, or don't use flair, or just aren't comfortable being so flamboyant.  Case in point, my son is very shy and soft-spoken and very self conscious, but he loves RM.  His sister is younger and outgoing, colourful and very active.  She stands up and dances around, brings her own props to the session and acts out the part.  She's the funniest thing to watch!  I want the players to be comfortable.  I know now that three players have left that group and no longer bother gaming because they were uncomfortable and didn't like feeling 'shunned' for not getting up and dancing and prancing with Shakespearean accents and I don't blame them.

Now I have had players say "I roll Strategy to come up with a defense plan."  Eh, ok.  They are allowed to do that, is it as much fun? No, not really.  But I wasn't a <insert colorful descriptor here> about it and made them suffer for it.  He rolled Strategy and I gave him some suggestions, those got the wheels in his mind turning, and then he got into the scene.  Doing the opposite... penalizing players for not acting, caused three players to leave the gaming group.

Quote
The exact balance is something that needs to be worked out between the GM and players, and you don't want it to be a barrier to participation, but I think it's a fundamental part of the game.

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.  I couldn't agree with you any more, except for maybe 'a millions times, yes.'  :) Balance has to be there, and flexibility.  I hate to be bashing this GM because he was one of the most colorful, creative, in depth GM's I've ever met, but he was inflexible.  He's an awesome player as well and a fun/funny person, almost as grand as he is a GM, but he too is an actor, and he gets into the role and goes all out.  That's just not for everyone.  When I GM, I add some accents and voice changes, and maybe stand up and move around, but that's the extent of my on-stage presence.

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Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: How many DP do you give per level?
« Reply #139 on: June 04, 2015, 10:59:31 AM »
If they tried using Strategy skill in a Tactical encounter, I'd let them try it and then have the bandits kick their butts... ;)

It all depends (for me, at least) on the background knowledge and abilities of the players. If they have the background, I will expect more in the way of explanation and the like...if not, I try to keep it simple for them. And for those of you who expect detailed descriptions and the like...how would you handle it if the character is more competent than the player? Say the characters are having the Cavalier plan an ambush. The Cavalier has a massive Tactics bonus, but the player running the character wouldn't have the faintest idea how to check for a clear field of fire for the party's bowmen, let alone some of the finer points of (say) an L-shaped ambush. I've also had the reverse happen (the player knew far more than her character did about tactics), and in that case I asked for a die roll based on the character's skill bonus rather than what the player knew. Simulating lack of knowledge is sometimes harder than simulating knowledge.

The situation also changes when you have people new to RPGs in the group. Until they're comfortable with the whole dynamic (and have seen others in the group actually role-play), I'll let them make rolls instead of forcing them to "play the part." As they get more comfortable, the rolls fade into the background. It's always a mix.
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