Author Topic: Conversion MERP to HARP  (Read 7717 times)

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Offline Falenthal

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Conversion MERP to HARP
« on: October 17, 2012, 02:30:13 PM »
I'm new to HARP, as my experience has been mostly in MERP and RM for some years. I found HARP a perfect balance between playability and realism and intend to continue my Middle-Earth campaigns with this system.
And here's my concern: How adaptable is the material I've got for MERP to the HARP rules?

From what I've seen, there should be no problem with skill tests (locks difficulties, perception tests, etc).
I also don't fear the magic conversion, as I don't use lots of magic in my Middle-Earth adventures. I'll just make available to the NPCs or PCs the scaled spells more similar to their former spell lists.

Buy I'm having problems figuring how to adapt de OB, DB and Hit Points, specially from the NPC charts included in the MERP modules.
The question is: is there a way to "transform" the OB, DB and Hits from the MERP NPCs to HARP?
I've seen that by doubling the OB and Hits, and adding the DB bonus for the armour wearing to the normal DB, a MERP NPC ressembles a HARP NPC. Is that correct? Would it work for all levels or only for the firsts ones?

And, by the way, is there any Middle Earth adaptation for the HARP rules? Races, magic limitations, Corruption/Shadow rules,...
I'm doing my own, buy I still lack the experience in HARP and would like to see others. If anyone is interested in mine, I can post the GoogleDocs link... only it's in spanish! If someones interested, maybe I can translate it to english.

Thanks and greetings from Spain!

Offline Urbaman

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Re: Conversion MERP to HARP
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2012, 02:51:37 PM »
Hi,

I'm also working on it by myself.

There was a very good website by Mando with a very good adaptation: try HARP TERRE DU MILIEU on google. But I think it's off. Mando are you still there somewhere?

There are some ROLEMASTER to HARP conversion rules in the vault (HARP, CONVERSIONS) you can use for MERP (that is ROLEMASTER at its heart).

There was an article on a 2006 issue of the Guild Companion: http://www.guildcompanion.com/scrolls/2006/apr/harpbloodtalentsmiddleearth.html

I know there's something else out there (I had downloaded something else somewhere), just google it.

Hope it helps, and keep us informed on your games!

Offline Zut

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Re: Conversion MERP to HARP
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2012, 03:46:52 PM »
I've seen a post by Mando on the RMU sub-forum, some days ago. Maybe you could both send him a PM?

I also had a request by another forum member, Widukind, for "my" updated spreadsheet for HARP character creation. He told me he would be playing MERP using HARP. Maybe he could help you too. (?)
What is the difference between a geek and a scientific researcher? The researcher gets paid.

Offline Falenthal

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Re: Conversion MERP to HARP
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2012, 05:23:02 PM »
Thanks for the replies!

I'll try to contact Mando as I had seen his posts about his own HARP-MiddleEarth adaptation, but his website was shut down. Maybe I'm lucky and he still has his documents.

The article of 2006 was the first idea I got about how to make the conversion, and I've worked trying to expand it (other cultures, like rohirrim or wose, deleting some spells like fireballs and fly, ...). But it was a perfect starter for me.

I'll try to translate my own document to english as soon as I finish it and upload it here, so you people with a lot more experience in HARP can comment on it if you like.

Offline Mando

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Re: Conversion MERP to HARP
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2012, 09:29:02 PM »
MP sent with link to a 93 Mb archive.

Hope it helps :)

I may have another 5 Gb of source files, but it's more a mess of reference files, of different versions, maps and XML databases, and all. Not sure it could really help.

Old ICE was logically worried about these docs for copyright issues, so these files are to be considered as "only for the strong spirited" :)


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Offline Falenthal

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Re: Conversion MERP to HARP
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2012, 11:33:47 PM »
Many, many thanks!!!

It is greatly appreciated. I'll read it thoroughly and leave a comment.

Thanks again.

Offline Widukind

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Re: Conversion MERP to HARP
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2012, 05:41:32 AM »
Hi, i also playing HARP on Middleearth. Years ago i used different RM Versions after my first start with MERP. I send you my Exel sheet and a few conversions rules found in the net.

Offline Falenthal

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Re: Conversion MERP to HARP
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2012, 06:40:55 AM »
Thanks a lot for the material! Wow, I'll get more than I can read!

Mando documents are a jewel to the eye, to begin with. Now I have to read them with care and atention.

Thanks to both of you.

Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Conversion MERP to HARP
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2012, 10:06:56 AM »
The article of 2006 was the first idea I got about how to make the conversion, and I've worked trying to expand it (other cultures, like rohirrim or wose, deleting some spells like fireballs and fly, ...). But it was a perfect starter for me.
Glad you could use the article. Back when I created it, I deliberately left out cultures-specific details but instead though one could use the normal HARP cultures to represent ME cultures. E.g. Rohirrim might be normal humans using the Nomad culture.

Offline Falenthal

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Re: Conversion MERP to HARP
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2012, 04:42:15 PM »
It's a honor to know the person who created the first article that came out when I typed "Middle Earth Harp" in Google!

Well, I copied your stats for the Noldor and the Dunedain and some more things. I'll give credit for that!

For the cultures, I agree that they can be represented with the basic rules. Buy I wanted to give the players a little flavour when they choose they're race. I've seen that in HARP, contrary to MERP, the race and culture stat modificators and initial rank bonuses don't make such a huge difference. A dwarven warrior can be as good an archer as an elven warrior. The singularity of every character depends way more on the development points the player spends than on the adolescent skills given by every culture.

However, I like to give the rohirrim a +20 to Mounted Combat from the begining. Even if it's symbolic, that marks that he is different from a, let's say, dunleding.


Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Conversion MERP to HARP
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2012, 06:01:34 PM »
I can understand the rationale, even though I prefer to make as little changes to the game system as possible, just to avoid introducing unbalanced rules. But it's of course your game. Have fun!

Offline Falenthal

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Re: Conversion MERP to HARP
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2012, 06:38:16 PM »
Well, after some work I have finally finished (for now) my adaptation rules for Middle Earth.

It includes races, of course, but also limitations to magic and corruption rules.
They are all being tested and modified as my group plays (which is sadly not very often), but I think they are a good basis to work on at least.

I've attached the .docx document in english. I'd be glad if someone would care to take a look at it and comment, specially on the corruption rules.




Offline Falenthal

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Re: Conversion MERP to HARP
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2012, 04:29:09 AM »
Just forgot to thank Mando, Ecthelion and Widukind for sharing with me their documents on Middle-Earth conversion in the first place. Specially regarding races and cultures I took a lot of ideas from them.
Also, I have to credit The One Ring RPG for the inspiration on the Corruption Rules. Mine are mainly based on the ones that Francesco Nepitello wrote for his great game.
And also to MERP, of course, that set the standards of how I understand a Middle-Earth based rpg (although the rules were not written with Middle-Earth in mind!  ;D).

Hope I can be of help to you at least half of what this people have helped me. And half of that is less than half what you deserve  ;D

Offline Turbs

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Re: Conversion MERP to HARP
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2012, 06:26:22 PM »
just curious.
Did you manage to convert all the pre-made characters into HARP as well?
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Offline Falenthal

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Re: Conversion MERP to HARP
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2013, 08:12:15 AM »
just curious.
Did you manage to convert all the pre-made characters into HARP as well?

Not really. Everytime I need an NPC, even one frome the old MERP modules, I have to adjust it by hand.
First of all, I try to find a Monster in either the core book or the Monsters: A Field Guide that is similar to what I want to use.
For orcs, spiders, wolves and the like there's normally no problem. But sometimes I look for orc scouts (snagas) or warg-riders, etc. and I have to make the modifications on my own.
For NPCs, I take a look at the ones created in the end pages of Martial Law. There are no magicians or clerics, what I also don't use them in my campaigns except for one or two individuals.

What I miss is some variety in some semi-intellignet monsters (as said, orc explorers, goblin riders/rangers,...) and a more extense npc table, with characters from every profession in various levels, so that you can pick a basic character to make your own. For example, looking at the Thief template at level 1 I can make some brigands that ambush the player characters, and looking at the level 3 rogue I can make their leader.

On my To Do list for 2013, I plan to write (that doesn't mean I will be able to do it  ;D) a sort of short bestiary with specific Middle Earth cratures: mewlips, barrow wights, nazgûl, huorns, ents, crebain, olog-hai, fell beasts, ...
If I manage to end it, keep sure that I'll post it here.


Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Conversion MERP to HARP
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2013, 02:01:15 PM »
Since I just received (exactly?) your rules as a suggestion for rules to use in a ME campaign, I took a closer look and can now give some feedback. The gist is that I love the detail and that a lot also of the dwarvish and mannish races get covered in the rules, but IMO the races are horribly unbalanced. Elves are just the Uber-race that Tolkien seems to have had them in mind. But that is something that I would not want to have as a player race in my HARP campaign - unless Elves are either the only race the players should pick or not available at all to them. Who with a sane mind, and who does not want to play a crippled character, would otherwise play anything but an elvish character? Sorry if this perhaps seems a bit rude, but I fear this is a severe flaw in your rules.

Cheers

Offline Falenthal

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Re: Conversion MERP to HARP
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2013, 11:37:56 AM »
Thanks for the time and feedback. By no means do I think of it as "rude". I think you're are being sincere, and that I appreciate.

Regarding to your note about elves, I must say that you're (partially) right. I had the same argument with myself: should elves (specially Noldo) be better than the other races, like Tolkien describes them, or should they be balanced, like in the HARP core rules?
My own decision to make them better had two main reasons. First, if I wanted to play in Middle Earth and was making an adaptation therefore, I should make the rules fit the setting, not the other way round. If Tokien says that they're inmune to disease and that they recover faster from wounds, I can't ignore that if I want to play in Middle Earth. If Legolas crosses the snow storm of Caradhras without feeling cold or leaving traces, and it is said that that's normal for elves and not only for Legolas himself, as well as his keen senses, I have to reflect that somehow in the rules.

And second, I always thought that, while elves where described as better by Tolkien, they also had "something" that made them the "losing" race in the long run. Humans were able to survive and grow in Middle Earth, while elves were always less numerous and less powerful. How do you represent that in game terms? Because that is what balances elves to other races.

In my rules, elves do have less Fate Points that the rest of races: Noldo 1 FP, Sinda, silvan (and dúnedain) 2 FP, the rest 3 FP. In the rules that I attached in this thread I didn't include another change that I apply now: each race has a maximum of FP as well: Noldo 3FP, Sinda, silvan and dúnedain 4FP, the rest 5 FP.
The idea comes from the fact that Tolkien himself says that elves are bound to Fate more than humans. My interpretation of that is that they're less capable of changing destiny or fate. Elves are better in normal tems than a human, but a human can change the course of history more often or better than an elf.
Beren stole a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown, Isildur cut Sauron's finger and took his ring, Bard killed Smaug with a single arrow, Eowyn killed the Witch King,... Did Fingolfin against Morgoth, Celebrimbor or Gil Galad against Sauron, Glorfindel against the Witch King, etc manage to do such a feat? No, elves are normally better, but they can't do impossible things. Humans can.
In my games, Fate Points are important (they are used once or twice a game), and it is a big difference to have 1 or to have 3.

Also, another way of balancing races (although, as said, that's not my real concern), is that elves have higher numbers per race, but they are not flexible to choose anything (or nearly). That is, a Noldo makes the best scholar or magician, but if you want a warrior, it's not the best choice. Choose a human with a +3 to Strenght, a +3 to Agility and a +2 to Constitution, spend the 5 free skill ranks in weapons and put the +10 bonus on your primary weapon. Compare that to even a silvan archer and your human bowman will beat him. Of course, with a human, you have to use all your racial bonuses to equal an elf on it's specialization, but the good point is that you can choose where to allocate this bonuses, while with an elf you can't.

Also, in my opinion racial stat bonuses doesn't make a lot of difference. They're sometime more "symbolic". A Noldo may have a +4 to Presence and Dwarves a +0 to it. But if the dwarf is interested in, let's say, being a good trader, he just has to spend 1 more rank than the Noldo and he'll have the same total bonus to the skill.

Finally, I have to say that I'm lucky with my players. When they choose their characters, they don't look at the stats, racial bonuses, etc. They just think of the kind of character they want to play and build it. Right now we're playing in the Kin-Strife war and there's a Urban Gondorian, an Éothed (Rohirrim) Bard, a lesser dúnedain Fighter and a dúnedain Ranger. No elves, no dwarves, no magicians,.... all have very mundane reasons to be in Osgiliath (it's their hometown) when the war explodes and that's what they wanted. No one even thought about having a Noldo Warrior-Mage in Gondor's capital during the Third Age.

Excuse for the long post, but I wanted to share my view on the rules I attached here. I perfectly remember your own changes, Ecthelion (they were the first ones that I read!), and I must say that, while I not only liked them, but also copied some things from you  ;), reasons like the one we discuss here made me do my own adaptation rules.

Enjoy!

Offline WoeRie

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Re: Conversion MERP to HARP
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2013, 02:31:44 PM »
Great post! I love WHY and HOW you designed the Elves and balancing them using Fate Points is a great idea.

But maybe you should consider to give a number of fate points for each gaming session, instead of buying them with DP (which weakens a character on the long term). As I first read this idea (coming from RuneQuest 6) I was upset, but the more I think about it the more I start to like it.

Offline Falenthal

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Re: Conversion MERP to HARP
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2013, 02:38:35 PM »
Great post! I love WHY and HOW you designed the Elves and balancing them using Fate Points is a great idea.

Thanks a lot!

But maybe you should consider to give a number of fate points for each gaming session, instead of buying them with DP (which weakens a character on the long term).

I don't have any rule for this, but we normally play so that characters may not buy Fate Points, they can only acquire new ones by heroic or epic successes. Sometimes even trying something heroic (even if it fails) can grant a Fate Point. Therefore, a noldo will begin his adventuring career with just 1 Fate Point. His actions can give him a maximum of 3 Fate Points, however.

As I first read this idea (coming from RuneQuest 6) I was upset, but the more I think about it the more I start to like it.
I don't know RuneQuest 6. Could you explain how the idea is developed there?



Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Conversion MERP to HARP
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2013, 04:54:55 PM »
Thanks for the explanation of your reasoning. Some comments below.

My own decision to make them better had two main reasons. First, if I wanted to play in Middle Earth and was making an adaptation therefore, I should make the rules fit the setting, not the other way round. If Tokien says that they're inmune to disease and that they recover faster from wounds, I can't ignore that if I want to play in Middle Earth. If Legolas crosses the snow storm of Caradhras without feeling cold or leaving traces, and it is said that that's normal for elves and not only for Legolas himself, as well as his keen senses, I have to reflect that somehow in the rules.
I agree that the races should be reflected (at least more or less) correctly by the rules. That's what e.g. the MERP (and also RMSS/RMFRP) rules tried, where elves get a +100 RR vs. disease and where they get +10 to +20 vs. cold attacks. But IMO this has to come at a cost. In the MERP rules Noldo had to put the highest stat roll into Pr and the race has the lowest no. of background options. In RMSS High Elves have -5 to SD and also have the lowest no. of background options. In my Blood Talents for Middle Earth rules the bonuses elves get come at a DP cost, plus they are less pronounced than the advantages you give the elvish races.
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And second, I always thought that, while elves where described as better by Tolkien, they also had "something" that made them the "losing" race in the long run. Humans were able to survive and grow in Middle Earth, while elves were always less numerous and less powerful. How do you represent that in game terms? Because that is what balances elves to other races.
This I do not deny, but it is not something that normally affects you when role playing a character.
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In my rules, elves do have less Fate Points that the rest of races: Noldo 1 FP, Sinda, silvan (and dúnedain) 2 FP, the rest 3 FP. In the rules that I attached in this thread I didn't include another change that I apply now: each race has a maximum of FP as well: Noldo 3FP, Sinda, silvan and dúnedain 4FP, the rest 5 FP.
The idea comes from the fact that Tolkien himself says that elves are bound to Fate more than humans. My interpretation of that is that they're less capable of changing destiny or fate. Elves are better in normal tems than a human, but a human can change the course of history more often or better than an elf.
I see the balancing factor of Fate Points. One problem is that according to normal HARP rules, a Fate Point can be bought for 5 DPs. So in any group otherwise using the rules normally an elvish character could simply spend 10 DPs for the missing 2 Fate Points and counter that balancing factor you added. And the advantages he gets are worth far more than 10 DPs IMO.
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Beren stole a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown, Isildur cut Sauron's finger and took his ring, Bard killed Smaug with a single arrow, Eowyn killed the Witch King,... Did Fingolfin against Morgoth, Celebrimbor or Gil Galad against Sauron, Glorfindel against the Witch King, etc manage to do such a feat? No, elves are normally better, but they can't do impossible things. Humans can.
Here I see things a bit differently. The powers the elves fought against in the first age were far more powerful than those that were battled in the third age. And Beren stole the Silmaril with the aid of Luthien, an elf. Isildur only was able to cut the ring after Elendil and Gil-Galad had wrestled down Sauron. The latter two are the ones who deserve credit, giving their lives so that little Isildur could cut the finger. Also elves did kill quite a number of Balrogs in the last battles of the First Aid. So I don't think that Tolkien devised elves so that they could not kill the powerful adversaries in Middle Earth and only humans could do so.
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In my games, Fate Points are important (they are used once or twice a game), and it is a big difference to have 1 or to have 3.
As said above, in normal games these 2 Fate Points make a difference of 10 DPs.
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Also, another way of balancing races (although, as said, that's not my real concern), is that elves have higher numbers per race, but they are not flexible to choose anything (or nearly). That is, a Noldo makes the best scholar or magician, but if you want a warrior, it's not the best choice. Choose a human with a +3 to Strenght, a +3 to Agility and a +2 to Constitution, spend the 5 free skill ranks in weapons and put the +10 bonus on your primary weapon. Compare that to even a silvan archer and your human bowman will beat him. Of course, with a human, you have to use all your racial bonuses to equal an elf on it's specialization, but the good point is that you can choose where to allocate this bonuses, while with an elf you can't.
Well, the 5 additional ranks cost 10 DPs, as does the Skill Specialization talent. So the elf could spend 20 DPs to counter these advantages a human gets.
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Also, in my opinion racial stat bonuses doesn't make a lot of difference. They're sometime more "symbolic". A Noldo may have a +4 to Presence and Dwarves a +0 to it. But if the dwarf is interested in, let's say, being a good trader, he just has to spend 1 more rank than the Noldo and he'll have the same total bonus to the skill.
First, it's not only one skill that is affected by a +4 to Pr but all skills that use Pr. For some characters this will not be that important, e.g. a more combat-oriented character, sometimes it will make a big difference, e.g. for a social skills-oriented character. Second, it's not only the stat bonuses that make the big difference. Elves in your rules gets a bonus vs. cold attacks, the talent "Accelerated Healing", are immune to fear RRs of a lot of undead, need less sleep, get Scholar/Skill Specialization/Speed Loader/Outdoorsman plus they get the elvish talents according to the normal HARP rules. That's quite a lot, all countered only but 2 Fate Points less than normal.
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Finally, I have to say that I'm lucky with my players. When they choose their characters, they don't look at the stats, racial bonuses, etc. They just think of the kind of character they want to play and build it. Right now we're playing in the Kin-Strife war and there's a Urban Gondorian, an Éothed (Rohirrim) Bard, a lesser dúnedain Fighter and a dúnedain Ranger. No elves, no dwarves, no magicians,.... all have very mundane reasons to be in Osgiliath (it's their hometown) when the war explodes and that's what they wanted. No one even thought about having a Noldo Warrior-Mage in Gondor's capital during the Third Age.
Then you are lucky, because this means that you can use your rules despite the flaws that I still think they have. IMO most groups should not use them, at least not without modifications.
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Excuse for the long post, but I wanted to share my view on the rules I attached here. I perfectly remember your own changes, Ecthelion (they were the first ones that I read!), and I must say that, while I not only liked them, but also copied some things from you  ;), reasons like the one we discuss here made me do my own adaptation rules.

Enjoy!
Thanks for sharing your thoughts!