Topic: Noob Weapons Law: Firearms + Spacemaster Blaster Law questions please

[C.Tozer]

Hi folks

I have been playing RM for many years but set pretty exclusively in a fantasy setting. I have recently for the first time got my hands on both Weapons Law: Firearms & Spacemaster Blaster Law and am trying to get my head around these new (to me) rules for an upcoming game. 

Despite reading (or perhaps I am misreading??) both books I still have what I think are some very basic/noob questions. The main questions I have are around how many actual attacks/rolls on a table (+ any resulting critical) depending on the different attacking actions.

Hope someone in the community many be able to help please:

1. "SINGLE SHOT: This represents pointing the weapon at a target and firing once. This action takes 30-60% activity*."

Okay so this at first glance appears to be pretty straight forward and easy to understand. But just to check; with a minimum of 30% of a characters activity for a single shot a character could make x3 single shots (using 90% of their activity) for in one round correct? If a character elected to make x3 single shots in a around (30% activity) each what would be penalty be for each shot?

2. "EXTENDED OR DOUBLE SHOT With this shot, the character aims the weapon and holds the trigger down for two beats for a continuous weapon or fires twice for a semi-automatic (also called a double-tap). This causes the target to take up to the equivalent of two attacks.
Typically, three shots for a continuous weapon or two from a semi-automatic make up an Extended Shot."

Again this seems to be be pretty clear though why only two attacks if x3 bullets are fired from a continuous weapon? Surely that should be x3 attacks no?

3. "SPREAD BURST: A spread burst action represents the action of firing a bunch of bullets into an area to increase the likelihood of hitting a single target. Generally, the spread is in a pattern of some type, but this is not required. It is assumed that 5 bullets are fired when this type of action is taken. Any weapon with a listed action type of automatic can be used in this fashion. When using a spread burst action, you must spend the normal 30-60% activity*. You will get a special bonus of +30 to the attack roll. However, you can only use half you normal OB with the weapon and any critical is reduced by one in severity (with an A critical resolved as an ‘A’ critical with a special modification of -25).
Note: Characters using an automatic weapon capable of a 3-round burst (i.e., Auto3) may not perform a spread burst action."

So does this mean x5 individual attack rolls are made (with x5 possible criticals too)?
With a +30 to each attack?
Also why can't Characters using an automatic weapon capable of a 3-round burst (i.e., Auto3) use a spread burst?
And why can only automatic weapons be used this way? Surely a semi automatic weapon (that has more than 5 rounds left) could do the same no?
Also, assuming the GM decides that, this action is only 30% does that mean a character could make x3 spread burst attacks in one round (ie 15 bullets)? And if so what would the penalty be for those (15 individual??) attacks rolled?

4. "AIMED BURST ACTION: An aimed burst action represents the action of firing a bunch of bullets in a very focused area in an attempt to do lots of damage to the target. Any weapon with a listed action type of automatic can be used in this fashion. An aimed burst uses 5 rounds of ammunition.
When using an aimed burst action, you must spend 50-90% activity*. You will suffer a special penalty of -20 to the attack roll, but any critical delivered is resolved on the Shrapnel Critical Strike Table.
Note: Characters using an automatic weapon capable of a 3-round burst (i.e., Auto3) may use only 3 rounds of ammunition and still get the aimed burst bonuses. This only applies at point blank, short, and medium ranges."

Similar questions as above .... So does this mean x5 individual attack rolls are made (with x5 possible Shrapnel criticals too)?
With a +20 to each individual attack?
And why can only automatic weapons be used this way? Surely a semi automatic weapon (that has more than 5 rounds left) could do the same no?
Also, assuming the GM decides that, this action is only 50% does that mean a character could make x2 spread burst attacks in one round (ie 10 bullets)? And if so what would the penalty be for those (10 individual??) attacks rolled?

5. "RAPID FIRE: Sometimes, characters just want to fire their gun as fast as they can. In almost all cases, it is possible to empty all ammunition out of a gun inside of 10 seconds (one round). When a character wants to just fire his gun as fast as possible, resolve this action as a static maneuver (not an attack). If the maneuver is successful, the gun has been emptied (be sure to check for breakage numbers on the maneuver)."

So if you empty the entire clip (say 8 rounds) does that mean x8 attack rolls? If so where/how is the damage worked out if no attack table is used - ie just using the static maneuver table?
REALLY unclear about this particular action .....?

6. "AIMED RAPID FIRE: The normal attack action presumes that you are aiming between each shot. When the firing character is stationary and can prepare himself properly, it is possible to aim once and then empty the gun.
To resolve an aimed rapid fire action, the character must be able to spend a round in preparation doing nothing but aiming (100% activity spent in one round). In the following round, he may empty his gun at the target. Make a static maneuver roll (adding the character’s Rapid Fire skill if he has it). If the maneuver is successful, resolve the attack as an aimed burst action. If the maneuver is not successful, resolve the attack as a single shot action.
Rapid Fire: If a character has the Rapid Fire skill, he may add his bonus to any static maneuver to determine the success of his aimed rapid fire actions."

So again if the static maneuver roll is successful, after aiming for 10 seconds, then apply all, lets say x8 rounds in the clip as x8 individual attack rolls are made (with x8 possible Shrapnel criticals too)?

To help me understand how the rules are meant to work could some more experienced members of the community help me out with how they would handle the following x3 situations:

1. "A character is at point blank range using a fully loaded Glock (15 rounds) and an 1-handed firearm OB of +65. That character's declared action is to empty the Glock's magazine into a thug standing 7 foot away."
How do you handle this? Rapid fire? What penalties are involved and why?

2. "A WWII American marine storms a German trench with his fully loaded Thompson M1A1 (30 rounds) and elects for his attack to attack with a +75 2-handed firearm OB the three surprised German soldiers standing 20 foot way."
Again how do you handle this? How many times can he fire? What penalties are involved and why?

3. "A British WWI soldier wishes to fire his Lee Enfield 303 (8 rounds, OB +75) bolt action rifle with "single shots -as above" as many times as he can at an Austrian soldier in no mans land 130 foot away during his 10 second round."
Again how do you handle this? How many times can he fire? What penalties are involved and why?

Lastly just some questions on the hitting power some of the weapons:
1. I fully understand that there is a BIG difference between power of .41 Derringer and Browning .50 Cal but even with that in mind why doesn't a Derringer do an E crit at least on the upper part of the attack table? Surely your only chance to kill so one with such a puny attack table is to be right up with the muzzle touching the enemy?

2. Also similar questions for Attack Tables ME2 - ME4? I'm assuming the only saving grace for a weapon such as the Soviet PPSH41 ("ie burp gun") which against AT1 is a very, very puny 12E against AT1 is that its rate of fire is massive and a 71 round magazine ... again the question is how many single attacks for this weapon in one round could you make?

3. In contrast lastly the damage inflicted by some of the sporting guns (ie the Purdey Double Custom) seems incredible ... 256I against AT and 133I against AT4 ... I guess that is why they call them, or ones like them, elephant guns ... at around 350 hit points 2 - 3 shots from such a gun would be able to drop an elephant?

Thanks very much one and all and look forward to your thoughts

Chris

[Sable Wyvern]

1. "SINGLE SHOT: This represents pointing the weapon at a target and firing once. This action takes 30-60% activity*."

Okay so this at first glance appears to be pretty straight forward and easy to understand. But just to check; with a minimum of 30% of a characters activity for a single shot a character could make x3 single shots (using 90% of their activity) for in one round correct? If a character elected to make x3 single shots in a around (30% activity) each what would be penalty be for each shot?

These are just like missile attacks in RMSS/FRP. The character will get a -1 per unused 1%, to a maximum penalty of -30. Three shots at 30% would each be at -30. You'd be more likely to go 40/30/30 or some combination thereof, to use up your full 100% of available activity.

2. "EXTENDED OR DOUBLE SHOT With this shot, the character aims the weapon and holds the trigger down for two beats for a continuous weapon or fires twice for a semi-automatic (also called a double-tap). This causes the target to take up to the equivalent of two attacks.
Typically, three shots for a continuous weapon or two from a semi-automatic make up an Extended Shot."

Again this seems to be be pretty clear though why only two attacks if x3 bullets are fired from a continuous weapon? Surely that should be x3 attacks no?

Firing three shots doesn't triple your chance of hitting. A three round burst and a double-tap are most likely treated as equivalent for the purposes of simplicity.

3. "SPREAD BURST: A spread burst action represents the action of firing a bunch of bullets into an area to increase the likelihood of hitting a single target. Generally, the spread is in a pattern of some type, but this is not required. It is assumed that 5 bullets are fired when this type of action is taken. Any weapon with a listed action type of automatic can be used in this fashion. When using a spread burst action, you must spend the normal 30-60% activity*. You will get a special bonus of +30 to the attack roll. However, you can only use half you normal OB with the weapon and any critical is reduced by one in severity (with an A critical resolved as an ‘A’ critical with a special modification of -25).
Note: Characters using an automatic weapon capable of a 3-round burst (i.e., Auto3) may not perform a spread burst action."

So does this mean x5 individual attack rolls are made (with x5 possible criticals too)?
With a +30 to each attack?
Also why can't Characters using an automatic weapon capable of a 3-round burst (i.e., Auto3) use a spread burst?
And why can only automatic weapons be used this way? Surely a semi automatic weapon (that has more than 5 rounds left) could do the same no?
Also, assuming the GM decides that, this action is only 30% does that mean a character could make x3 spread burst attacks in one round (ie 15 bullets)? And if so what would the penalty be for those (15 individual??) attacks rolled?

This is spray and pray. You're strafing and hoping to hit a single target with one of your bullets. There is only one attack roll. Again, you're suffering a -1 for each -1% activity allocated, to a maximum of -30.

The reason for requiring 5 bullets, I presume, is because you require this many to get a reasonable chance of hitting something. Even then, this isn't a particularly effective attack mode if you're actually any good with the weapon. If your OB is less than 60, you end up slightly more likely to hit (essentially, put a bunch of rounds downrange and rely on dumb luck). If your OB is higher than 60, you're reducing your chance of hitting by choosing to fire wildly. This strikes me as reasonably realistic.

4. "AIMED BURST ACTION: An aimed burst action represents the action of firing a bunch of bullets in a very focused area in an attempt to do lots of damage to the target. Any weapon with a listed action type of automatic can be used in this fashion. An aimed burst uses 5 rounds of ammunition.
When using an aimed burst action, you must spend 50-90% activity*. You will suffer a special penalty of -20 to the attack roll, but any critical delivered is resolved on the Shrapnel Critical Strike Table.
Note: Characters using an automatic weapon capable of a 3-round burst (i.e., Auto3) may use only 3 rounds of ammunition and still get the aimed burst bonuses. This only applies at point blank, short, and medium ranges."

Similar questions as above .... So does this mean x5 individual attack rolls are made (with x5 possible Shrapnel criticals too)?
With a +20 to each individual attack?
And why can only automatic weapons be used this way? Surely a semi automatic weapon (that has more than 5 rounds left) could do the same no?
Also, assuming the GM decides that, this action is only 50% does that mean a character could make x2 spread burst attacks in one round (ie 10 bullets)? And if so what would the penalty be for those (10 individual??) attacks rolled?

Only one attack roll is made. This is the more effective way of using automatic fire. Again, using less than the maximum percentage provides penalties to the attack roll.

You're less likely to hit your target than with a single, well-aimed shot, but if you do get rounds on target, you might get multiple rounds into them, and thus you get nastier crits.

5. "RAPID FIRE: Sometimes, characters just want to fire their gun as fast as they can. In almost all cases, it is possible to empty all ammunition out of a gun inside of 10 seconds (one round). When a character wants to just fire his gun as fast as possible, resolve this action as a static maneuver (not an attack). If the maneuver is successful, the gun has been emptied (be sure to check for breakage numbers on the maneuver)."

So if you empty the entire clip (say 8 rounds) does that mean x8 attack rolls? If so where/how is the damage worked out if no attack table is used - ie just using the static maneuver table?
REALLY unclear about this particular action .....?

This one is strange. It reads to me as a way to rapidly and wildly empty your magazine. As written, you don't hit anything. It might be handy as an intimidation tactic? [A quick check in SM: Privateers clarifies that it is, indeed, designed to do nothing other than empty your mag.]

6. "AIMED RAPID FIRE: The normal attack action presumes that you are aiming between each shot. When the firing character is stationary and can prepare himself properly, it is possible to aim once and then empty the gun.
To resolve an aimed rapid fire action, the character must be able to spend a round in preparation doing nothing but aiming (100% activity spent in one round). In the following round, he may empty his gun at the target. Make a static maneuver roll (adding the character’s Rapid Fire skill if he has it). If the maneuver is successful, resolve the attack as an aimed burst action. If the maneuver is not successful, resolve the attack as a single shot action.
Rapid Fire: If a character has the Rapid Fire skill, he may add his bonus to any static maneuver to determine the success of his aimed rapid fire actions."

So again if the static maneuver roll is successful, after aiming for 10 seconds, then apply all, lets say x8 rounds in the clip as x8 individual attack rolls are made (with x8 possible Shrapnel criticals too)?

As best I can tell, this is a way for a character to make an aimed, burst-fire attack with a semi-automatic weapon. Only one attack roll is made (either aimed burst or single shot).

To help me understand how the rules are meant to work could some more experienced members of the community help me out with how they would handle the following x3 situations:

1. "A character is at point blank range using a fully loaded Glock (15 rounds) and an 1-handed firearm OB of +65. That character's declared action is to empty the Glock's magazine into a thug standing 7 foot away."
How do you handle this? Rapid fire? What penalties are involved and why?

Assuming the Glock is semi-auto, this would be Rapid Fire (empty the mag, hit nothing) or Aimed Rapid Fire (This will be resolved as either Aimed Burst or Single Shot, depending on success of the manoeuvre.

2. "A WWII American marine storms a German trench with his fully loaded Thompson M1A1 (30 rounds) and elects for his attack to attack with a +75 2-handed firearm OB the three surprised German soldiers standing 20 foot way."
Again how do you handle this? How many times can he fire? What penalties are involved and why?

Assuming you want to try and take down both immediately, options include:

Option 1: 2 x Extended Shot, 50% action for each. One in the Normal, one in the Deliberate.

First Target
Base OB: 75
Activity Penalty: -40 (using only 50% Activity)
Total OB: 35 for the first shot, 20 for the second.

Second Target
Base OB: 65
Activity Penalty: -40 (using only 50% Activity of a maximum 90%)
Deliberate Phase: +10
Total OB: 45 for the first shot, 30 for the second.

Option 2:
Two single shots, trying for quick kills
60% attack in the snap, followed by 40% attack in the normal vs the second target.

First Target
Base OB: 75
Snap Action: -20
Total OB: 55

Second Target
Base OB: 75
Activity Penalty: -20 (only using 40% activity of a maximum 60%)
Total OB: 55

3. "A British WWI soldier wishes to fire his Lee Enfield 303 (8 rounds, OB +75) bolt action rifle with "single shots -as above" as many times as he can at an Austrian soldier in no mans land 130 foot away during his 10 second round."
Again how do you handle this? How many times can he fire? What penalties are involved and why?

Pretty much the same as my option two immediately prior., but instead of a 60% and a 40% action, make it a 30, 40 and 30.

[Sable Wyvern]

Oops, sorry, in the first example, I was working on two Germans, not three.

If you want to attack all three, it would be something like a 40% (-20), 30% (-30)  and 30% (-30) attack. This is before any modifiers for the phase, or the -15 mod for second attack in a three-round burst.

The other (and probably best) option is to use suppression fire, hope they dive for cover, and try picking them off the following round while they have reduced activity.

But, generally, if you're stuck in a 3-vs-1 situation, things aren't looking good.

[C.Tozer]

Hi Sable Wyvern

Thanks very much indeed for taking the time and effort for clarifying these different attacks - very much appreciated.

Thanks to your explanations below it does seem to make more sense but your answers have produced a few more questions if you or someone can further assist ... no worries Sable Wyvern if not yourself/you are sick of my questions. 

So from your helpful comments:

1. SINGLE SHOT: "These are just like missile attacks in RMSS/FRP. The character will get a -1 per unused 1%, to a maximum penalty of -30. Three shots at 30% would each be at -30. You'd be more likely to go 40/30/30 or some combination thereof, to use up your full 100% of available activity."
Okay this now makes sense - basically taking the time to aim and fire. You could choose to wait, take your time and use x1 shot with 100% OB.
With a semi-automatic you could as you suggest squeeze of x3 shots at 40/30/30 or whatever, resulting in x3 attack and x3 potential different crit results. 
Just to confirm too with the last example (WWI British soldier firing at an Austrian) a bolt action rifle I'm assuming you actually could only fire (assuming you started the round with loaded, ready to fire weapon) twice: firstly at 40%, then 10% to reload, 30% to fire a second time and have 20% left over? (ie as per Weapons: Firearms p.11 its +10% for a bolt action weapon). Am I correct?
There is also the option (Option 1) bottom of page 11 in Weapons: Firearms) where you can fire faster but the chance of a fumble increases .... so I guess x3 shots at 30% OB each and reload twice at 5% (with the fumble range going up firstly by 1 for the second shot and 2 by the third shot).
So three shots appears to be maximum under SINGLE SHOT for a bolt action I guess ...??

2. EXTENDED OR DOUBLE SHOT: Firing three shots doesn't triple your chance of hitting. A three round burst and a double-tap are most likely treated as equivalent for the purposes of simplicity.
Okay get it and the advantage over the SINGLE SHOT option above is you get one clear shot at no penalty but the second shot is at -30% "special penalty" correct?
                         ......... BUT according to the text in the rulebook an  EXTENDED OR DOUBLE SHOT is between a 50 - 90% action. Assuming you had a very good OB could you opt for using 50% activity for x1 EXTENDED/DOUBLE SHOT (1st attack at -50 & 2nd attack at -80 ie - using only 50% OB + the "special penalty" AND the do exactly the same thing again for your remaining 50% activity?
In other words x4 attacks (x2 at -50 & x2 at -80)?? Have I read this right?
You would have to be a pretty good shot to attempt x4 attacks at such hefty penalties .... but things like point blank range etc may help.

3. SPREAD BURST: This is spray and pray. You're strafing and hoping to hit a single target with one of your bullets. There is only one attack roll. Again, you're suffering a -1 for each -1% activity allocated, to a maximum of -30.

The reason for requiring 5 bullets, I presume, is because you require this many to get a reasonable chance of hitting something. Even then, this isn't a particularly effective attack mode if you're actually any good with the weapon. If your OB is less than 60, you end up slightly more likely to hit (essentially, put a bunch of rounds downrange and rely on dumb luck). If your OB is higher than 60, you're reducing your chance of hitting by choosing to fire wildly. This strikes me as reasonably realistic.

Yep okay again this makes sense .... just chuck a lot of lead in the direction of the enemy and hope for the best ...... BUT same supplementary question as above; if your minimum for this attack is 30% what is there from stopping you repeating this twice or even three times in one round at -30 to each attack ... which would cancel out the +30 you get for this attack?
Or again am I reading this wrong?

4. AIMED BURST ACTION: Only one attack roll is made. This is the more effective way of using automatic fire. Again, using less than the maximum percentage provides penalties to the attack roll.
You're less likely to hit your target than with a single, well-aimed shot, but if you do get rounds on target, you might get multiple rounds into them, and thus you get nastier crits.

Again this makes sense .... except that comparing the "Ballistics Shrapnel Critical" vs the "Ballistics Puncture Critical" yes the Shrapnel table is nastier but comparing them side by side not that much nastier? A few more rounds of stun/no parry, some more bleeding, some more hefty negatives to activity but comparing the damage from one bullet vs. (potentially) up to five bullets I would have expected the damage to be worse maybe??
Also same supplementary question above - at a 50% activity could you not undertake this action twice in a round?
Lastly it says in Weapons: Firearms p.10 only automatic weapons for an AIMED BURST ACTION. Do you think an argument could be made for a semi-automatic weapon, at point blank or short range only perhaps, to be allowed an AIMED BURST ACTION?

5. RAPID FIRE: This one is strange. It reads to me as a way to rapidly and wildly empty your magazine. As written, you don't hit anything. It might be handy as an intimidation tactic? [A quick check in SM: Privateers clarifies that it is, indeed, designed to do nothing other than empty your mag.]

Yep I think you and I agree this is strange and the same with AIMED RAPID FIRE.
I have also had a look at SM: Privateers and you are right all it does is empty the mag though you can for an "AIMED RAPID FIRE" (which equals a "Aimed burst action" if the maneuver is successful, "Single Shot" if not). However this action requires you to spend a full round aiming and then the second round firing??

Personally I don't really see the point, even as an intimation tactic?? Both RAPID FIRE & AIMED RAPID FIRE seem pretty pointless to me. Any comment from anyone else?

If two opponents are within, say 5 feet of each other, and one gets the drop on the other and simply points the gun and squeezes the trigger to rapid fire/empty the mag (assuming its an automatic weapon) how would run that in your game? Assume a mag of 25 rounds maybe roll to see how many of those x5 bullets salvos hit and then say roll x1-5 E Ballistics Shrapnel Critical crits? Just an idea/sound reasonable? Surely the opponent is dead (assuming a normal humanoid with no special armor) or very, very, very lucky at least with an automatic weapon with a full mag.
I certainly believe this could only be considered (potentially) fair/legit if the combatants are at either point blank or minimum short range ... more than that and lead is just being launched in all directions most likely.

I guess there is an argument to say that emptying a semi-automatic pistol mag/revolver at point blank range could result in all misses (the very famous scene out of the movie "Pulp Fiction" where Vincent and Jules somehow survive x6 shots blasted in their direction at very close range from a Taurus Model 689 - .357 Magnum!!!) but unlikely no?
But how about a semi-auto rifle/weapon with a larger mag than x6 rounds .... again something along the lines mentioned above in terms of number of Shrapnel criticals?

The last question I would raise is about the single shot and if that isn't being too prescriptive/limiting - looking at Youtube clips like
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFYZHLuxXZ8 where the shooter gets off 10 Shots in 6.5 Seconds using a Lee Enfield SMLE 303 and the world record (is claimed to be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_minute) for 1 minute is 35 or one round every .58 of a second.
Sure as the person says in the Youtube clip "I am not concentrating on aiming in this video, just speed." but could there be an argument that for a SINGLE SHOT ACTION (as above) that a combatant could get off say 4 - 6 aimed(ish) shots with a bolt action rifle in a 10 second round (with both increased fumble range and a negative to the OB of say -50 for each shot. Higher or lower penalty?)

Again thanks Sable Wyvern for taking the time to respond and look forward to hearing back from you or anyone else on the questions raised above.

Cheers

Chris

Oops, sorry, in the first example, I was working on two Germans, not three.

If you want to attack all three, it would be something like a 40% (-20), 30% (-30)  and 30% (-30) attack. This is before any modifiers for the phase, or the -15 mod for second attack in a three-round burst.

The other (and probably best) option is to use suppression fire, hope they dive for cover, and try picking them off the following round while they have reduced activity.

But, generally, if you're stuck in a 3-vs-1 situation, things aren't looking good.

[C.Tozer]

Just wondered too if anyone else had any further thoughts on the x3 questions below on the hitting power of some of the guns in Weapons:Firearms?

Thanks folks.

Chris

Lastly just some questions on the hitting power some of the weapons:
1. I fully understand that there is a BIG difference between power of .41 Derringer and Browning .50 Cal but even with that in mind why doesn't a Derringer do an E crit at least on the upper part of the attack table? Surely your only chance to kill so one with such a puny attack table is to be right up with the muzzle touching the enemy?

2. Also similar questions for Attack Tables ME2 - ME4? I'm assuming the only saving grace for a weapon such as the Soviet PPSH41 ("ie burp gun") which against AT1 is a very, very puny 12E against AT1 is that its rate of fire is massive and a 71 round magazine ... again the question is how many single attacks for this weapon in one round could you make?

3. In contrast lastly the damage inflicted by some of the sporting guns (ie the Purdey Double Custom) seems incredible ... 256I against AT and 133I against AT4 ... I guess that is why they call them, or ones like them, elephant guns ... at around 350 hit points 2 - 3 shots from such a gun would be able to drop an elephant?

Thanks very much one and all and look forward to your thoughts

Chris

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

IMO, "rapid fire" is a case of suppressive fire.
We had a discussion about the matter once. Suppressive fire isn't supposed to be accurate, but frightening.

[Sable Wyvern]

Hi Sable Wyvern

Thanks very much indeed for taking the time and effort for clarifying these different attacks - very much appreciated.

You're welcome.

Just to confirm too with the last example (WWI British soldier firing at an Austrian) a bolt action rifle I'm assuming you actually could only fire (assuming you started the round with loaded, ready to fire weapon) twice: firstly at 40%, then 10% to reload, 30% to fire a second time and have 20% left over? (ie as per Weapons: Firearms p.11 its +10% for a bolt action weapon). Am I correct?

I didn't check the reload rates, but that makes sense. Although, you wouldn't leave that 20% just lying around -- you'd add it to one of your attack actions, or split it between both (eg, 60% fire in snap, 10% load in the normal and then 30% fire in the deliberate).

There is also the option (Option 1) bottom of page 11 in Weapons: Firearms) where you can fire faster but the chance of a fumble increases .... so I guess x3 shots at 30% OB each and reload twice at 5% (with the fumble range going up firstly by 1 for the second shot and 2 by the third shot).
So three shots appears to be maximum under SINGLE SHOT for a bolt action I guess ...??

Unless it lets you take more than one action per phase, you'd still be limited to two shots and one reload action. (Snap, Normal, Deliberate.)

2. EXTENDED OR DOUBLE SHOT:
Okay get it and the advantage over the SINGLE SHOT option above is you get one clear shot at no penalty but the second shot is at -30% "special penalty" correct?
                         ......... BUT according to the text in the rulebook an  EXTENDED OR DOUBLE SHOT is between a 50 - 90% action. Assuming you had a very good OB could you opt for using 50% activity for x1 EXTENDED/DOUBLE SHOT (1st attack at -50 & 2nd attack at -80 ie - using only 50% OB + the "special penalty" AND the do exactly the same thing again for your remaining 50% activity?
In other words x4 attacks (x2 at -50 & x2 at -80)?? Have I read this right?

50% action would be a -40 (the maximum is 90%, and you're using 40% less than this). The second shot has an additional -15, not -30. So you'd be shooting at -40/-65 and -40/-65.

Also, keep in mind the modifiers based on phase. Any action in the Snap is -20, any action in the Deliberate is +10.

3. SPREAD BURST:Yep okay again this makes sense .... just chuck a lot of lead in the direction of the enemy and hope for the best ...... BUT same supplementary question as above; if your minimum for this attack is 30% what is there from stopping you repeating this twice or even three times in one round at -30 to each attack ... which would cancel out the +30 you get for this attack?
Or again am I reading this wrong?

Nothing stopping you from doing that at all, assuming you have enough ammo.

4. AIMED BURST ACTION:Again this makes sense .... except that comparing the "Ballistics Shrapnel Critical" vs the "Ballistics Puncture Critical" yes the Shrapnel table is nastier but comparing them side by side not that much nastier? A few more rounds of stun/no parry, some more bleeding, some more hefty negatives to activity but comparing the damage from one bullet vs. (potentially) up to five bullets I would have expected the damage to be worse maybe??

Other than at very close range, or when attacking area targets and light vehicles with machine guns, burst fire is wasteful and relatively ineffective. I'm ok with the rules reflecting this.

Also same supplementary question above - at a 50% activity could you not undertake this action twice in a round?

Indeed you could.
 

Lastly it says in Weapons: Firearms p.10 only automatic weapons for an AIMED BURST ACTION. Do you think an argument could be made for a semi-automatic weapon, at point blank or short range only perhaps, to be allowed an AIMED BURST ACTION?

You could make the argument, but I don't see any particular reason to allow it. Certainly, wildly pulling the trigger would be even less effective than actual automatic fire, although you can do some neat trick shooting like fanning certain revolvers, and I think you can do some similar stuff with lever actions.

If two opponents are within, say 5 feet of each other, and one gets the drop on the other and simply points the gun and squeezes the trigger to rapid fire/empty the mag (assuming its an automatic weapon) how would run that in your game? Assume a mag of 25 rounds maybe roll to see how many of those x5 bullets salvos hit and then say roll x1-5 E Ballistics Shrapnel Critical crits? Just an idea/sound reasonable? Surely the opponent is dead (assuming a normal humanoid with no special armor) or very, very, very lucky at least with an automatic weapon with a full mag.
I certainly believe this could only be considered (potentially) fair/legit if the combatants are at either point blank or minimum short range ... more than that and lead is just being launched in all directions most likely.

If it's a skilled combatant with a suitable weapon (eg, an smg pressed against the target) I would do one of the following:

* Just say the target is dead.
* Roll a bunch of E Ballistic Shrapnel crits.
* Roll a bunch of E Ballistic Shrapnel crits and allow them to be modified by Ambush ranks.
* Us the rules as written, along with Ambush.

Most likely, I'd go with the first or last option.

If it's someone who isn't combat trained and I'm going for gritty realism, I'd probably just use the rules exactly as written and make the character select a combat option as normal (ie, the last option from the list above).

I guess there is an argument to say that emptying a semi-automatic pistol mag/revolver at point blank range could result in all misses (the very famous scene out of the movie "Pulp Fiction" where Vincent and Jules somehow survive x6 shots blasted in their direction at very close range from a Taurus Model 689 - .357 Magnum!!!) but unlikely no?

Entirely possible, depending on the skill of the combatants, their desire to kill, and random luck. Take a look at some analysis of handgun combat by gangs and/or police. There is a lot of close range missing.

But how about a semi-auto rifle/weapon with a larger mag than x6 rounds .... again something along the lines mentioned above in terms of number of Shrapnel criticals?

It's going to be even easier to miss with long arms at close ranges. That's one reason pistols, SMGs and carbines are thing.

The last question I would raise is about the single shot and if that isn't being too prescriptive/limiting - looking at Youtube clips like
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFYZHLuxXZ8 where the shooter gets off 10 Shots in 6.5 Seconds using a Lee Enfield SMLE 303 and the world record (is claimed to be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_minute) for 1 minute is 35 or one round every .58 of a second.
Sure as the person says in the Youtube clip "I am not concentrating on aiming in this video, just speed." but could there be an argument that for a SINGLE SHOT ACTION (as above) that a combatant could get off say 4 - 6 aimed(ish) shots with a bolt action rifle in a 10 second round (with both increased fumble range and a negative to the OB of say -50 for each shot. Higher or lower penalty?)

It's definitely possible to fire faster than the rules suggest. However, most techniques for doing this are only going to be useful for trick shooting, not combat shooting. The remaining edge-cases aren't really worth writing rules for, and would, in many cases, be covered well enough by the existing options plus absurdly high skill levels.

If you want more cinematic combat and more effective automatic fire, it should be easy enough to loosen the rules, reduce the penalties and increase the benefits.

Overall, while they're a little cumbersome (although, less so when once you recognise that some options are best being avoided), I think the RM fire combat rules make for a pretty decent, reasonably realistic, gritty system. The only thing they don't really cover are certain aspects of machine guns, such as beaten zones, enfilade fire and the like, which are pretty damn hard to write rules for without becoming overly complex, and won't actually show up in play all that often unless you're actually doing full-scale modern warfare (for which RM is probably not the best option anyway).

[Sable Wyvern]

Lastly just some questions on the hitting power some of the weapons:
1. I fully understand that there is a BIG difference between power of .41 Derringer and Browning .50 Cal but even with that in mind why doesn't a Derringer do an E crit at least on the upper part of the attack table? Surely your only chance to kill so one with such a puny attack table is to be right up with the muzzle touching the enemy?

2. Also similar questions for Attack Tables ME2 - ME4? I'm assuming the only saving grace for a weapon such as the Soviet PPSH41 ("ie burp gun") which against AT1 is a very, very puny 12E against AT1 is that its rate of fire is massive and a 71 round magazine ... again the question is how many single attacks for this weapon in one round could you make?

3. In contrast lastly the damage inflicted by some of the sporting guns (ie the Purdey Double Custom) seems incredible ... 256I against AT and 133I against AT4 ... I guess that is why they call them, or ones like them, elephant guns ... at around 350 hit points 2 - 3 shots from such a gun would be able to drop an elephant?

To these questions ...

1. Why should it? Just because something is a firearm doesn't mean it's automatically an exceptionally powerful death-dealing contraption. It can still kill, even with an A crit, but it's a small, low powered weapon. Is it firing something more powerful than a .22LR? I wouldn't be giving those E crit capability and, without checking Firearms, I'm reasonably confident that authors probably didn't either.

Keep in mind that some low powered rounds will most likely fail to penetrate a human skull, and even fairly lightweight barriers (glass, heavy curtains) can reduce their stopping power enough to potentially make a difference.

2 & 3. I know nothing about PPSH41s or elephant hunting, so I'll refrain from commenting.

[C.Tozer]

Hmmmmm .... yeah fair point on the Derringer Sable Wyvern. It is a physically very small small weapon and checking again in Firearms its a Remington 44 round with the other the weapons on the same table using the likes of .31 ball (black powder), .22 rimfire or .25 Auto.
All pretty puny ...

As mentioned I don't know much about firearms and after your useful post below (RE bullets not going through glass/thick curtains etc) I have been doing some more research (if you have time see the rather nice couple of quotes below for your amusement from https://www.quora.com/Is-a-25-caliber-bullet-useful) I totally take your point and agree that not every handgun is going be a "exceptionally powerful death-dealing contraption".

From the comparatively limited research I have done for sure small caliber weapons may not do much damage. But at the same time, from the reading I have done, .22 caliber can certainly kill. And sometimes with one shot.

So yes, while an "A" crit may kill (but ONLY on a roll of 100 according to the Ballistics Puncture Crit) and maybe not a "E" crit is perhaps too much perhaps a "D" crit??
Also re-looking at the damage done the .22/.31 ball etc table (ME1) the actual hit points taken are at max in AT1 4 hits. I guess as a civilian, without "Body Development" training and say around 20 - 25 hits before unconsciousness, maybe that sounds reasonable?? But I tend to think maybe, even for such a puny caliber, that is a bit low?
Also re-looking at the attack table it actually has "0hits and A crits"? something I have never seen before.

Also strangely to note that on the Ballistics Puncture Critical table on a 90 - 99 roll on both a C or D critical doesn't result in death and of those x6 results only one (91 - 95 on a D crit) actually results in the foe being knocked out/unconscious). And the result for 96 - 99 on a C sounds pretty feeble to me ... some stun no parry, a minus and -2 hits per round.
A bit of a strange Rolemaster Critical table in comparison to others I would have thought?

Anyway again thanks Sable Wyvern for taking the time to respond - much appreciated and I have learnt a lot from your comments thank you.

Anyone else care to comment on either PPSH41s or elephant guns?



To the likely question, “How effective is the .25 ACP cartridge in a typical pocket pistol for stopping an assailant?” I will just quote my best recollection of the best version of the oft-referenced Cooper statement. He’s in a bar during some training or so on in the late Cold War period, in Czechoslovakia. Two “spookchicks” are eager of his opinion on their .25ACP pistols and how they carry them:

I suggested they are fine pistols, but should instead be carried unloaded.

Because if loaded, you may be inclined to shoot it at someone.

And if you shoot at someone, you may hit them.

And if you hit them, they may notice, and then become dangerously annoyed.

Another which I do not have a source of:

We hear of an unfortunate woman who, during a nighttime asthma attack, confused the small handgun she kept under her pillow with an asthma inhaler and proceeded to relieve her symptoms. It was not a fatal mistake, partly because she used a 25 ACP, which everyone knows is not sufficient to clear sinuses.

Haha. Yes, people have been killed with everything. Someone I knew peripherally died falling off a non-moving bicycle. And people have survived .50 BMG hits to the head.

Lastly just some questions on the hitting power some of the weapons:
1. I fully understand that there is a BIG difference between power of .41 Derringer and Browning .50 Cal but even with that in mind why doesn't a Derringer do an E crit at least on the upper part of the attack table? Surely your only chance to kill so one with such a puny attack table is to be right up with the muzzle touching the enemy?

2. Also similar questions for Attack Tables ME2 - ME4? I'm assuming the only saving grace for a weapon such as the Soviet PPSH41 ("ie burp gun") which against AT1 is a very, very puny 12E against AT1 is that its rate of fire is massive and a 71 round magazine ... again the question is how many single attacks for this weapon in one round could you make?

3. In contrast lastly the damage inflicted by some of the sporting guns (ie the Purdey Double Custom) seems incredible ... 256I against AT and 133I against AT4 ... I guess that is why they call them, or ones like them, elephant guns ... at around 350 hit points 2 - 3 shots from such a gun would be able to drop an elephant?

To these questions ...

1. Why should it? Just because something is a firearm doesn't mean it's automatically an exceptionally powerful death-dealing contraption. It can still kill, even with an A crit, but it's a small, low powered weapon. Is it firing something more powerful than a .22LR? I wouldn't be giving those E crit capability and, without checking Firearms, I'm reasonably confident that authors probably didn't either.

Keep in mind that some low powered rounds will most likely fail to penetrate a human skull, and even fairly lightweight barriers (glass, heavy curtains) can reduce their stopping power enough to potentially make a difference.

2 & 3. I know nothing about PPSH41s or elephant hunting, so I'll refrain from commenting.

[intothatdarkness]

The Firearms supplement is not especially reliable when it comes to weapons for any number of reasons, and most of the RM products dealing with gunpowder weapons are IMO broken. For starters the ten second round is far too long. One of the most useful concepts is the Mark system from SM, but that has more to do with limiting the number of attack tables you need to use with firearms.

ANY firearm can kill, just like any weapon (or theoretical non-weapon like pens). The key is shot placement. I've actually comprehensively redone RM combat to deal with firearms, including damage and crit tables based on hit location. The attack tables are based on maximum damage by caliber based on the muzzle velocity and weight of the bullet in question.

In terms of rate of attack (the PPsH 41), there's a difference between effective rate of fire and suppressive rate of fire. Suppressive fire is intended to keep an opponent pinned (something most games don't model well), while effective RoF is the highest rate you can manage and still have solid chances of hitting the target. In my rules, effective RoF in a two second round is based on the weapon's actual cyclic rate (rounds fired in a minute) divided by 100 (or alternately by 60 if for some reason you want a higher RoF). A Burst attack (intended to cover an area like suppressive fire) automatically uses HALF the weapon's magazine and rolls on a different attack table.

Regarding Crits: those to me are a reflection of a round's actual hitting power based on bullet weight and expansion potential. A .22 won't do an E because it simply lacks hitting power. That doesn't mean it can't kill, but it does mean it won't hit Es. On the flip side, it's going to achieve maximum damage more often because it 'tops' the table at a lower level (reflecting its low recoil and controllability if you're looking for the reason behind Marks with firearms). Successive shots accumulate penalties (recoil) unless a PC takes a round to stabilize her shooting position. As those accumulate, a round that 'tops' at 120 is less likely to do that as penalties increase (-10,-20, and so on...accumulating every ROUND until a character stops shooting), while one that tops at 70 (say) will continue to 'top' through a number of shots.

Just quick thoughts. Hope they help some.

[intothatdarkness]

IMO, "rapid fire" is a case of suppressive fire.
We had a discussion about the matter once. Suppressive fire isn't supposed to be accurate, but frightening.

One good way to deal with suppressive fire is to treat it as a Burst attack (area attack). My rules have a THM that applies to any character (PC or NPC) that was the target of a Burst in the preceding round. It's fairly high, simulating the desire to avoid being hit.

[C.Tozer]

Many thanks intothatdarkness - yeah I agree something isn't right with the rules as they currently stand and I think, on further reflection, that it is the normal Rolemaster 10 second round that has something to do with it.
I think the 10 second round works pretty well in a fantasy/melee weapon setting - ie in 10 seconds you have time to duck, feint an attack, parry, weave and then actually make your attack.

With weapons like a submachine gun which can spit death in a second or two ten seconds seems like a long, long time to act in (and fire plenty of shots - as noted in the discussion below, some accurately and other times not so much).

Your idea of a two second round using modern/20 century firearms seems to make a lot of sense .... My question is how do you weave that back into the Rolemaster "standard" 10 second round?

Cheers

Chris

The Firearms supplement is not especially reliable when it comes to weapons for any number of reasons, and most of the RM products dealing with gunpowder weapons are IMO broken. For starters the ten second round is far too long. One of the most useful concepts is the Mark system from SM, but that has more to do with limiting the number of attack tables you need to use with firearms.

ANY firearm can kill, just like any weapon (or theoretical non-weapon like pens). The key is shot placement. I've actually comprehensively redone RM combat to deal with firearms, including damage and crit tables based on hit location. The attack tables are based on maximum damage by caliber based on the muzzle velocity and weight of the bullet in question.

In terms of rate of attack (the PPsH 41), there's a difference between effective rate of fire and suppressive rate of fire. Suppressive fire is intended to keep an opponent pinned (something most games don't model well), while effective RoF is the highest rate you can manage and still have solid chances of hitting the target. In my rules, effective RoF in a two second round is based on the weapon's actual cyclic rate (rounds fired in a minute) divided by 100 (or alternately by 60 if for some reason you want a higher RoF). A Burst attack (intended to cover an area like suppressive fire) automatically uses HALF the weapon's magazine and rolls on a different attack table.

Regarding Crits: those to me are a reflection of a round's actual hitting power based on bullet weight and expansion potential. A .22 won't do an E because it simply lacks hitting power. That doesn't mean it can't kill, but it does mean it won't hit Es. On the flip side, it's going to achieve maximum damage more often because it 'tops' the table at a lower level (reflecting its low recoil and controllability if you're looking for the reason behind Marks with firearms). Successive shots accumulate penalties (recoil) unless a PC takes a round to stabilize her shooting position. As those accumulate, a round that 'tops' at 120 is less likely to do that as penalties increase (-10,-20, and so on...accumulating every ROUND until a character stops shooting), while one that tops at 70 (say) will continue to 'top' through a number of shots.

Just quick thoughts. Hope they help some.

[intothatdarkness]

Many thanks intothatdarkness - yeah I agree something isn't right with the rules as they currently stand and I think, on further reflection, that it is the normal Rolemaster 10 second round that has something to do with it.
I think the 10 second round works pretty well in a fantasy/melee weapon setting - ie in 10 seconds you have time to duck, feint an attack, parry, weave and then actually make your attack.

With weapons like a submachine gun which can spit death in a second or two ten seconds seems like a long, long time to act in (and fire plenty of shots - as noted in the discussion below, some accurately and other times not so much).

Your idea of a two second round using modern/20 century firearms seems to make a lot of sense .... My question is how do you weave that back into the Rolemaster "standard" 10 second round?

Cheers

Chris

I don't, actually. I've always felt the 10 second round had more to do with the time envisioned for casting a spell than it did anything else. With a 2 second round you can actually view a melee attack roll as a single attack as opposed to an odd "flurry of blows" or something. That works fine for my modern stuff, where you're dealing with firearms and things like knives and martial arts. But if you can live with shorter casting times (at least in game time terms instead of raw number of rounds) I think you could just cut the round down to 2 seconds, reduce movement rates accordingly and go with it.

[jdale]

I think 10 seconds is even too long for fantasy. That's typically enough time to cross from one end of a battle map to another, or leave the encounter completely. It's definitely too long for modern or SF.

RMU goes to a 5 second round and it's possible that going by action phases (4 per round) will handle higher rates of fire reasonably well. E.g. ranged attacks are 1-3 AP which means you could fire 4 times per round (almost once per second) if you are rushing (with a penalty) with a semiautomatic weapon. Bursts and autofire are probably still better abstracted, one attack per bullet is not a good representation of their effectiveness, but a three round burst modeled as a single 1-3 AP attack with an OB bonus might work well.

[intothatdarkness]

One of the reasons you might want to model automatic weapons on a one attack per bullet model is to deal with changing targets during a burst. There's also the fact that shooters can vary how many rounds they fire on automatic if they have good trigger control. I actually treat an actual burst (more suppressive fire than anything else) as a modified area attack. A fixed three round burst weapon is a different beast entirely, and I handle their attacks differently.

And you wouldn't want to put an OB bonus into any sort of burst attack because you're ignoring the effect of recoil on the attack. Recoil plays a huge role in firearms, and you ignore it at your peril. Keep in mind with modern weapons you're dealing with the possibility of sending anywhere from two to eleven rounds downrange in a two second combat round (that's effective RoF, not maximum...the Ingram Mac10 can put out somewhere in the neighborhood of 19 rounds a second if you're just holding the trigger down and spraying and praying).

[jdale]

I suspect we're not actually disagreeing, but to be clear....

One of the reasons you might want to model automatic weapons on a one attack per bullet model is to deal with changing targets during a burst. There's also the fact that shooters can vary how many rounds they fire on automatic if they have good trigger control. I actually treat an actual burst (more suppressive fire than anything else) as a modified area attack. A fixed three round burst weapon is a different beast entirely, and I handle their attacks differently.

I meant burst as in a fixed three round burst, one pull of the trigger. Like you, if multiple bullets are being fired in an automatic mode, being sprayed over multiple targets, I would treat that as an area attack rather than treating it as a bunch of individual attacks (which implies each individual bullet is individually aimed).

Firing several shots with individual trigger pulls in rapid succession is a little different.

And you wouldn't want to put an OB bonus into any sort of burst attack because you're ignoring the effect of recoil on the attack. Recoil plays a huge role in firearms, and you ignore it at your peril. Keep in mind with modern weapons you're dealing with the possibility of sending anywhere from two to eleven rounds downrange in a two second combat round (that's effective RoF, not maximum...the Ingram Mac10 can put out somewhere in the neighborhood of 19 rounds a second if you're just holding the trigger down and spraying and praying).

Supposing that fixed three round burst again, I think treating it as one single attack with an OB bonus is appropriate. You wouldn't treat it as three separate attack each with a bonus, if you treat it as three separate attacks at all (which is of questionable wisdom) I agree there would be recoil to deal with. But three bullets fired in a close burst are going to be more effective than one, whether it is because the second or third might hit where the first didn't, or because multiple bullets hit and do more damage. A three round burst is not three times as effective as one bullet (if it was, three separate attacks would be appropriate) but it might be, say, one and a half times as effective.

[Hurin]

But if you can live with shorter casting times (at least in game time terms instead of raw number of rounds) I think you could just cut the round down to 2 seconds, reduce movement rates accordingly and go with it.

Definitely!

I think 10 seconds is even too long for fantasy. That's typically enough time to cross from one end of a battle map to another, or leave the encounter completely. It's definitely too long for modern or SF.

Yes, I agree; 10 seconds is way too long. Remember the first edition DnD rounds? They were one minute long. That was ridiculous.

RMU goes to a 5 second round and it's possible that going by action phases (4 per round) will handle higher rates of fire reasonably well. E.g. ranged attacks are 1-3 AP which means you could fire 4 times per round (almost once per second) if you are rushing (with a penalty) with a semiautomatic weapon. Bursts and autofire are probably still better abstracted, one attack per bullet is not a good representation of their effectiveness, but a three round burst modeled as a single 1-3 AP attack with an OB bonus might work well.

I think the action point system will offer ways of modeling firearms quite well. Going to the action phase system will enable you to manage actions in 1.25 second chunks, which I think should be good enough for firearms. Perhaps even a 4-second round might do it better, since it would give nice, round, 1-second chunks... but 1.25 is still a lot better than 5, or 10.

[Sable Wyvern]

Remember the first edition DnD rounds? They were one minute long. That was ridiculous.

I found they worked fine.

I do agree that firearm combat as presented in SM and Firearms consists of some cludges designed to make it work with a 10 second round.

I had considered going to a 5 second round, even when firearms weren't a factor, but that would have required me to consider a massive range of subsidiary effects around spell durations and ranges, and I decided the minimal payoff wasn't remotely worth the effort. These days, I'd be highly unlikely to run a modern or sci-fi game with RM but, if I did, I probably would go  a shorter round and make some changes to the fire combat system.

[Hurin]

Somewhere between 2012 (when RMU beta1 came out) and 2015 (when beta2 came out), I ran a Spacemaster campaign using my own homebrew version of the action point system (this was before RMU had developed its own ap system). I reduced the length of the round from 10 seconds to 6, and changed the movement rates accordingly (mostly by reducing movement to 60% or so). I had my own system for movement that took acceleration into account, but even without that, I was surprised by how easy it was to vary the length of the round. Movement speeds were the only major component that needed to be adjusted. That's why I strongly agree with IntoThatDarkness's comment that you can actually do this without too much trouble.

[intothatdarkness]

Supposing that fixed three round burst again, I think treating it as one single attack with an OB bonus is appropriate. You wouldn't treat it as three separate attack each with a bonus, if you treat it as three separate attacks at all (which is of questionable wisdom) I agree there would be recoil to deal with. But three bullets fired in a close burst are going to be more effective than one, whether it is because the second or third might hit where the first didn't, or because multiple bullets hit and do more damage. A three round burst is not three times as effective as one bullet (if it was, three separate attacks would be appropriate) but it might be, say, one and a half times as effective.

Actually the system I have for the fixed three-round burst uses one attack roll modified twice. The first is normal, the second deals with a -20 (applied to the original roll), and the third is a -30 to the original roll, in addition to all other penalties and modifiers. Hit location (I use crit tables based on hit location) does not change. This deals with the "spread" of such an attack, making it possible for the third (or even the second) round to either miss or do no critical damage while the first round does.