Topic: Spells that need fixing??

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

There have been a number of comments since HARP was released that some spells are a bit more powerful than we might had originally thought, or a bit less powerful than they should be.

Well, we are looking at some ideas for bonus material that we can put into a Bazaar Annual this year, and one of the ideas was that we could perhaps rework some of the spells from the core book, using the spell creation rules from College of Magics.

While we will be the ones to make the final decision on which spells need updating, we would like to hear your comments, concerns, and ideas.....

[Dr_Sage]

Hello!

I believe my first contribuition will be this tread:
http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=4700.0

Basicaly I am comparing the Elemental resistance/protection spells among thenselves and with other forms of protections.

Best regards,

Andre

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Please, just the list the spells here in this thread, along with the reasons you think that they need to be updated. Please no redirecting to other threads. This thread was meant to be a place of consolidation. If you do not specifically list the spell here, it will not be reviewed for possible changes.

And just HARP core spells, no spells from the other books please.

Also, this is not the place to discuss agreements or disagreements with what others think about certain spells. If you want to discuss a person's reasons for listing a spell, create a new thread.

[choc]

Only a few, maybe featherbrained opinions.

Deflections:
Unaim True is too cheap. 2 ranks more than Increase Deflection (-100 to the missile attack) is not enough.

Bladeturn <-> Deflections:
Bladeturn has a scaling option Increase Range, Deflections has not.

Changing Ways & Misfeel:
Both need a scaling option for a longer duration.

Boost Attribute Spells:
Need a maximum achievable bonus (maybe 25 or 15)

Guardian Blades, Hammer Strike etc
Need an note "for melee weapons only"

[munchy]

Minor and Major Healing but those you are probably aware of as it has been mentioned before. Maybe some sort of Blood Healing, Bone Healing etc. would be nice, in comparison to the wounding spells of the Necromancer for example. At the moment they are just too powerful, even if combat is really dangerous especially using Martial Law.

Ah, and Light is definitely too weak in its duration but this is something that's probably not fixable using the rules from CoM as the spell is quite powerful especially with its scaling options (who needs clerics anyway?).

[Dr_Sage]

Please, just the list the spells here in this thread, along with the reasons you think that they need to be updated. Please no redirecting to other threads. This thread was meant to be a place of consolidation. If you do not specifically list the spell here, it will not be reviewed for possible changes.

And just HARP core spells, no spells from the other books please.

Sorry,

I just felt that was appropriate the link since much valuable things were said over there.

I was going to repost here, but both spells are not Core Spells so nevermind about then.

Regards.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

I just felt that was appropriate the link since much valuable things were said over there.

I was going to repost here, but both spells are not Core Spells so nevermind about then.

Plus, as I explained in that thread, it was a conscious decision to make the codex spells weaker because they are generalist spells (as opposed to being the more powerful spells of a specialist). They were made that way on purpose. Thus, even if you had listed them, we would not have selected them for changing because there is nothing wrong with them.

 

munchy -- if we did light according to the COM rules, it would cost more for the exact same power level that the spell currently has. That is one of the reasons for the Mage Light spell from the Codex, to create longer lasting, less expensive version of a light spell (perhaps we should repeat that spell ).

[Crypt]

I think teleportation spells are too powerfull or not expensive enought.

Only 4 PP for a basic (100') longdoor spell is very cheap, a first level magician could ruin any tactical scenario with this spell.
(it's even worse with Shadowport, because there is no obstacle for the same low 4 pp cost)

Something like 10 PP would be wiser.


I don't allow my players to pick this kind of spells at the beginning, whatever their costs.

[bunny]

I find the hammer strike and similar spells too powerful - it isnt that difficult to scale up to 4x damage and this can make short work of most opponents in my experience.

I'd prefer the base spell to be +10 hits or similar and have x2 being the first scaling option with higher multiples being that much more expensive and/or difficult.

Also a general comment regarding spells (kinda related) - I think there are too many which require the target resist vs stamina, though this may be the way our group thinks and the spells we usually use as players and/or GMs. I think play balance would benefit from using the resist vs magic more often.

[jurasketu]

Confusion seems a bit powerful. Once you fail - you're stuck. Maybe allow chances to resist again?

Why don't the healing spells have a stun removal option?

Past Visions seems almost ludicrously powerful. Adventures involving "mystery" elements are quickly ruined by this spell. Just find the right place. Cast a few spells. And voila. Mystery solved. Then again, its MAGIC!

In fact, the problem is that there is no "protective" spells or effects that can effectively stop a Past Visions or Long Door. The protective spells are all tactical in nature; they have very little chance of actually stopping a determined opponent with plenty of time.

Without a Spell Adder, the Counterspell is utterly useless - the penalties are just too high to be effective against powerful spells. I'm not sure how to fix it. And if my opponent has a great casting roll - it doesn't help - which is exactly the time I NEED it to work.

Dispell Magic is WAY too powerful. Enemy NPC has cast Hammerstrike, Boost Strength and Boost Quickness? No problema - just dispell them using that handy Ring of Dispelling with 100 charges scaled to 1000' - casting bonus +74. Magical ward on a treasure chest? So it was scaled up to 50 PP? Big deal. Sure I may have to open end three times to dispell it - but I've got a month and a cleric standing by to heal me when I fumble eight times and catch fire.

Path Lore is just plain annoying to GM

A number of spells need MUCH longer standard and scaled durations.

These spells would be MUCH more useful if they had 1 minute/rank to start and allow the 10 minutes/rank and 1 hour/rank scaling options
Plant Disguise
Misfeel
Changing Ways
Quiet Ways
Tree Merge
Hues
Darkness

These spells ought to allow longer scaling options into the minutes per rank (but not hours)
Hammerstrike
Magic Shield
Steel Skin
Elemental Weapon
Warrior's Might
Warrior's Fury
Nature's Strength
Nature's Tongues
Mage Armor
Invisibility
Fly
Projected Light
Phantasms
Charm
Tree Skin
Bless
Blur

Jolts seems a bit brutal (like Confusion, Sleep and Calm)

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

Why don't the healing spells have a stun removal option?

That was a deliberate design choice by ICE. There is a noncanonical Unstun spell, see http://www.guildcompanion.com/scrolls/2004/may/cuttingroomfloor-com.html

Past Visions seems almost ludicrously powerful. Adventures involving "mystery" elements are quickly ruined by this spell. Just find the right place. Cast a few spells. And voila. Mystery solved. Then again, its MAGIC!

Cloud Scrying and Shadow's Veil (both in Codex) provide effective counters to Past Visions and their ilk.

In fact, the problem is that there is no "protective" spells or effects that can effectively stop a Past Visions or Long Door. The protective spells are all tactical in nature; they have very little chance of actually stopping a determined opponent with plenty of time

Using a mix of spells from CoM and Codex, you can protect areas from this sort of thing.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

With regard to spells from the base book that need longer durations, you may like to peruse:
http://www.guildcompanion.com/scrolls/2006/sep/temporalpotency.html

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[jurasketu]

Dr Nicholas-

Thanks. I hadn't spotted the Cloud Scrying or Shadowveil (I only recently bought Codex). But those do the trick. So I withdraw my complaint to the Past Visions. And, of course, I have no problems manufacturing items and new spells to counter such effects the way I like - but that's non-standard and so I mentioned it in the context of the "base" game.

Temporalpotency seems too expensive an option in my opinion for what should be "strategic" rather than combat tactical spells - which those really are not. BTW I like the temporal potency talent and think its appropriately costed when applied to scaling "tactical" spells to the hours/rank level.

In my own game, I errata strategic and even certain tactical spells to allow the longer durations with the "standard" duration scaling options from build-a-spell options in COM.

IMO, one of the strengths of HARP (I've played in just about every system under the sun over the last 30 years), is that you can run highly magical tactical combat games ala Stephen Brust Jhereg or Harry Potter where EVERYBODY is casting spells. And so the tactical combat situations involve a veritable torrent of spells and effects (including counters and dispells) mixed in with standard maneuvering and fighting. Tricky to GM - but LOADS of fun.

Robin

[jasonbrisbane]

Minor and Major Healing but those you are probably aware of as it has been mentioned before. Maybe some sort of Blood Healing, Bone Healing etc. would be nice, in comparison to the wounding spells of the Necromancer for example. At the moment they are just too powerful, even if combat is really dangerous especially using Martial Law.

Good Call! I second this!

MINOR HEALING - there is no clarification that states if the spell can be used on the same wound repeatedly (This is commonly used on a  (example) -50 wound with repeated castings to reduce the penalties to 0). That makes this spell too powerful. If time is REALLY a factor then the party calls for the Cleric to cast the Major Healing. Magical Healing is the only factor in HARP that is broken to me....

Regards,
Jason brisbane

[Dr_Sage]

I had forgotten:

I believe Major and MInor Healing just need to be better integrated with the critical system.

I could give some examples to help, but I believe you guys are aware of that.

And If you want to reduce healing power, I see 2 major ways:

* Make then heal a % of the current damage, not a % of the max Concussion hits.
Example: Goro, the fighter has an Endurance Bonus of 80. He is hurt down to 40. When Major Healing is cast over him it would heal 20hits ([80-40]*50%=20). Then if cast again would heal 10 more points. And again would heal 5 points.
Basicaly people would have to use some natural healing to get 100% of the concussion hits back,

* Another way of seriously recuce the Magic Healing effectiveness without messing up with tables is simpli remove the option of Reduce Penalty.
Example: Goro the fighter have only 40 hits felf, is bleeding and with -30 penalty from wounds. One Major Healing and he will no longer die but still need rest to recover hist fighting capacity.

I am giving these suggestions becuse I like the idea of Major Healing being a powerfull spell. And a true Healer still have to spend DPs among other curative spells to treat poisons, diseases, and more.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

I split off the last 3 posts into its own topic as I felt that it was veering a good bit into territory not actually covered by this topic.

[jasonbrisbane]

I think teleportation spells are too powerfull or not expensive enought.

Only 4 PP for a basic (100') longdoor spell is very cheap, a first level magician could ruin any tactical scenario with this spell.
(it's even worse with Shadowport, because there is no obstacle for the same low 4 pp cost)

If you think about specific Combat Actions, then this spell isnt even close to being dangerous.

ACTION 1. Caster casts Long door and Teleports 100' to be next to bad guy. (Full round action)
ACTION 2. Bad guy slices head off Mage - Mage dead. or injured, or bleeding, or stick with a dagger, and lower on HP than a fighter, so he's in serious trouble...

No matter how you work it, a caster casting a full round spell (Long door isnt instantaneous) isnt going ot be able to get close to a bad guy to make a big difference. In my games My magician uses this to get away from combat 100', thus postponing the inevitable, but it worked.

Just my 2cp

[Kenstrel]

Hum...

ACTION 1 : Mage cast Long Door on his Fighter friend and teleport him in the Bad Guy's back
ACTION 2 : the Fighter slain the Bad Guy...

But I'm ok with you when you say Mage prefere to go away fropm combat.


Just my two centimes d'euro 

[janpmueller]

Sleep spell

Jolts seems a bit brutal (like Confusion, Sleep and Calm)

I'd like to extend on that. We houseruled Sleep to be not entirely effective when target is already aware of danger (target would get a huge bonus (like +50) on their RR). We like the spell as a strategy before a combat occurs, e.g. taking out a guard before he knows there's danger, but not as a mid-combat solution, like a guard approaching, weapon drawn, ready to fight. It just feels to easy.
A one-shot mage with only that spell and sufficient ranks is a defensive hero!

As possible solutions, I propose (a) the term "unsuspecting target", which makes the spell a strategic one, requiring stealth (and a muttered spell, thus -20, making it a little harder) or (b) modification of the required RR or (c) the rule that loud noises (i.e. combat sounds) count as "somebody tries to awaken him", so lets the target repeat the RR.
Same applies to Calm.

You shouldn't be able to Calm (or Sleep) someone already poised for battle.

I have fewer doubts concerning Jolts and Confusion.

[Ecthelion]

You shouldn't be able to Calm (or Sleep) someone already poised for battle.

Kind of "the more adrenaline the target currently has in his veins, the more difficult it is to calm him or put him to sleep". Makes sense to me.