Author Topic: you tube review  (Read 6898 times)

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Offline MaxUgg

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you tube review
« on: August 08, 2008, 02:52:14 AM »
A review of HARP on You Tube, just in case anyone missed it  :P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWGcOqPUBTU

max
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Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: you tube review
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2008, 06:11:52 AM »
It is only 2 days old...   ;D

I think Kurt did a good job on the review. Like many folks, he has issues with percentile math. I have already emailed him a link to the HARP d20fied document. So maybe we can lure him back again...

 ;D


Offline MaxUgg

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Re: you tube review
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2008, 06:22:34 AM »
I was wondering if Kurt had seen the Codex. I think the way it talks about the way that plentiful magic would affect society and construction and the appropriate spells - even though you may never use them - would be the sort of elegant and nice background touches he likes...
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Offline Nejira

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Re: you tube review
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2008, 07:55:51 AM »
Never got the whole "I cant/wont do math" thing. Its easier to add 2+4 than 20+40...eeh not really. If we take 72+104-23 as mentioned. Well if smaller numbers are easier just add 7+10-2 and then multiply it by ten. Yes the actual result is 153, and with the simple version (drunkard rule?) we get 150 but thats rarely gonna be the big issue IMO.
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Offline Uriel

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Re: you tube review
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2008, 05:24:31 PM »
Never got the whole "I cant/wont do math" thing. Its easier to add 2+4 than 20+40...eeh not really. If we take 72+104-23 as mentioned. Well if smaller numbers are easier just add 7+10-2 and then multiply it by ten. Yes the actual result is 153, and with the simple version (drunkard rule?) we get 150 but thats rarely gonna be the big issue IMO.

Not to be an 'Old Guy' here, but most younger gamers were raised in a society filled with eMpTyV, video games and whatever prescriptions their parents  gave them. I (I am 39) have never seen the math as an issue, and even loved all the crazy numbers, but what do I know (I like the dentist'a drill noise too...I know, I'm a freak). So, in that, I think Kurt brings up a valid point: The CCG/MMO generation isn't great with math, but...we can teach them.  I have been slowly introducing 3 game friends  from the LFGS (Ages, 20,22,22)  to the idea of doing a bit of math with the reward of an awesome system, the best (Yes, Tim, I said the BEST) magic system around, and detailed combat that is more gratifying than

"Your Fireball...roll, (Dice rattle) Um, 34 points of damage. OK, the Orcs...well, they all have 8 HP anyays, so they are dead, save or not. The Ogre failed, he's toast too, the Rogue made his save, he's untouched. What? No, there's no continuing burning effect. Yeah, I know, it's retarded..."

It helps that one guy is a self described 'Min/Max King', and he is gleefully trying to get 200% out of his options. He wonders while I smile and encourage him, Perhaps he hasn't caught on to the 'Instant Death' option that the system presents, as he has yet to play. Anyways, you can fix the math challenged, I'm proving it.

Another friend is DMing the game a us, and he has pretty severe dyslexia as far as math, but he adores all of the options available. Solution???
I am doing all the math for him. He wanted to give me extra XPs, but my reward is to be able to actually play in an ICE game, as my nickname has been 'The Eternal GM' since the early nineties.

Sorry for the tangent...

-Uriel

Offline ictus

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Re: you tube review
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2008, 05:44:41 PM »
I'm no math wizard, or am I?

as I've never had an issue with percentile maths, in fact I find it easier than the variety of numbers used in other less organized systems.

So are 'we' the next best thing to Einstein? or is the world just full of people who can't do basic maths?

Seemed quite a lame excuse for a review, so hung up on his inadequacies in his brain department that he didn't focus on actually review what is and isn't good about the game, if i don't already know the game i wouldn't have understood what he was banging on about.



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Offline Thos

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Re: you tube review
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2008, 06:54:03 PM »
Call me crazy, but there is this invention called the calculator that's been around for quite some time, I hear. It makes even multipication and division seem easy! I have had players who aren't good with basic math, but with the calculator... presto!  ;)
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Offline Zavala

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Re: you tube review
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2008, 08:43:37 PM »
Actually, I have taught all my players to use an abacus.  Talk about old school. ;)

I am really glad I emailed Kurt, I have been watching his reviews for a while.  Once I found out that he attended WKU, I sent him an email about HARP.  Maybe he will do one for Sci-Fi HARP when it comes out.

Z

Offline jasonbrisbane

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Re: you tube review
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2008, 09:34:35 PM »
Firstly, I'm not having a go at Kurt, I'm just expressing my views on thee topic....

I really dont understand the issues about Percentile Math...

In EVERY DnD game I've had people who couldnt figure out what 18-2 was...... Yes its sad... so How are they going to like Percentile? They're not, Obviously!

But run one combat in a standard group  with a few rules:

* Print out a table of the combat actions and bonuses. Or even better everyone buys their own book  ;D !
* Everyone figure out what you want to do in your turn and precalculate the bonuses you can.
   (OB + Cover penalties + Magic weapon bonuses+ spell bonsues, etc)
* Roll 1d100 and add your Total Bonus.
* Tell the GM your roll. He subtracts the DB of the Bad Guys and either: A) tells you the critical result, or B) tells you what the critical is. (Sure you can reverse engineer the DB but its up to you).

Alternatively, the GM can tell you what the bad guys DB is and you can factor this at Step 1. Then all your doing is adding "73(1d100 roll)+104" during your turn. Anyone should be able to calculate that.

There are all sorts of ways to speed up combat that can be used with a few simple ideas.
- Precalculate your attack bonuses
- GM tracks Defense Bonuses for the bad guys and can tell the players what this is beforehand (Base DB).
- Other players (who have had their go?) can read out critical results - we always fight for this job! :D )

Saying "I'm bad at maths" is a bit of a cop out IMHO.

Anyone who has tried any couple of game systems knows that what the book says is rarely how the game runs.
You need to try it out with your gaming group to see how its true colors shines.

I think this is why ICE has its loyal customer base - they have tried it and found it to be great system!


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Offline masque1223

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Re: you tube review
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2008, 04:08:23 AM »
The math issue isn't that unrealistic.  I've been running my game for almost a year now, and I'm getting the same complaints about the number crunching, and that's from my player who is a math junkie, constantly playing around with calculus and physics equations.  The complaint isn't that the math is hard, it's not.  The complaint is that like it or not, for them it takes a little bit longer to calculate out the results, which disrupts the flow and immersion of the gaming experience.  The math doesn't bother me, but I cut my teeth on MERP years ago when I first got into RPGs, so I'm used to it.  My players are all people who started with D&D, a LONG time ago.  They've played other percentile games, but of course those were roll under systems.

Now, keep in mind, this is their ONLY complaint.  Like the guy in the video, they love everything else about the game, from the flexibility of the race system, to the point based skill system, to the most excellent modular magic.  Hence why I'm in the process of switching over to HARP D20ified.  It would be stupid of me not to give on this one thing, especially since it will probably be quicker for me, as well, even if the larger numbers don't bother me.

Offline janpmueller

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Re: you tube review
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2008, 06:23:59 AM »
I think you're absolutely right regarding disruption of game flow - I believe that's exactly my and the other player's issue.

Quote
Hence why I'm in the process of switching over to HARP D20ified
I'll do that the next time I'm starting a new group... We use a calculator in battles, and most other situations usually don't require exact calculation (as long as you're above 100, you're fine), so we do okay, but still, more quick = more intuitive = more fun.
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Offline frnchqrtr

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Re: you tube review
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2008, 02:08:17 PM »
Allow me to add my voice .. err .. keyboard.. to the "meh" about the I-can't-do-math thing.

Okay, now that's out of the way. In all fairness to the reviewer, we weren't his target audience, in that, we already know that the math in HARP, or RM for that matter, isn't really an obstacle.
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Offline Defendi

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Re: you tube review
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2008, 03:35:21 PM »
It's a pretty huge obstacle among many people I have gamed with.
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Offline croakerdogboy

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Re: you tube review
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2008, 03:40:13 PM »
We always just had a couple of cheap calculators. Most of the time we could do it fast enough in our head not to even worry about it. I can honestly say I have never had that interfere with the game.
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Offline allenrmaher

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Re: you tube review
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2008, 03:53:37 PM »
You know a harp variant that is d10ified might help the math challenged, then they could conceivably use stray digits to struggle through. ;)

I am of course only half joking, the d20fied version is less math intimidating but I remember an old variant of RM for an unnamed fictional setting that was d10 based... and an introductory version of a very successful RM variant (who's name I shall not utter here... rhymed with burp).

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Offline Hawkwind

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Re: you tube review
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2008, 09:14:58 AM »
The math hasn't been a problem in my group either. A few of the players can do it in their head, the rest use a calculator. And I too, know some people who can't do the math in a d20 game :)

Hawk

Offline mocking bird

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Re: you tube review
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2008, 11:40:14 AM »
Will have to check this out at home - where I have a sound card. 

Never understood the math issue - where our biggest problem is getting the solar powered calculators close to the lights.  We still use them when playing d20 where instead of '72+104-23' it is 'add two dice +12-6-4+8+4-10' of which two of the numbers can vary between rounds depending on the player's whim. 

Also found the comment about making one person in charge of the charts, which we have actually done.  In d20 we have a 'librarian' in charge of all the suppliments where we can look up the various feats - hoping we remembered to write down what book they came out of.
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Offline Marc R

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Re: you tube review
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2008, 04:27:23 PM »
One issue, that I find often to be the root of the math problem.

It's not so much that they can't do the math, but that the math isn't in their head, which places a barrier between that person and "Gut" understanding.

I won't address why they can't do the math, but you see it in most systems, that the people who have problems with the math seem to often do things that people who do get the math find a bit crazy. . .

Questions of "Why did you do that?" or "Why didn't you do it?" boil down to not knowing what the numbers mean on a gut level. Being told it's a hard maneuver, when they have an Agility bonus of 10% doesn't transalte into a gut level call of "Good idea/bad idea".

Things like choosing to jump from the balcony to the roof across the way with a 5% chance of success. . . .or selecting the more dangerous/less likely to work method out of the options available. . .

You can help that along as GM, but I find that many of the people who just can't get gut familiar with the system (any system) tend to end up being either way too risky or way to risk averse, which can hurt their chances of having fun (or surviving).


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Offline RandalThor

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Re: you tube review
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2008, 04:29:18 PM »
I just watched it. His problem with it is pretty minor as far as I am concerned. I just ordered all the books because I am really liking what I am seeing (actually: re-seeing, for the 3rd time - Hey! So I'm slow, bet off my back! :D).

It does seem wrong to me that an engineer has a problem with what is, really, the most basic math out there: adding and subtracting. Sort-a-makes me not want to drive over any bridges or go up in tall buildings.
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: you tube review
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2008, 04:39:07 PM »
LM - I agree totally. Which is why I love a much more described game. With a good description I get the feel for the situation at hand and can act accordingly (and, of course, in character). This is a problem I have with one of my current gaming friends; he is much more into numbers and not description, too concerned with "balance" in my opinion. I would much rather hear about the rusty chain and it's loose connection to the wall when I think about using it to climb up than the fact that it is a -30 to my climb check. The GM can keep the number and modifiy what I tell him/her with the modifier s/he has generated for the act. Yeah, it is just fine giving level of difficulty - better yet, a small range like hard or very hard - we all can't guage the situation perfectly. In this fashion you can keep the math more managable (like it wasn't anyway  :P) as each person is only doing part of the "math problem."

[Boy, I really wrangled that one back on topic!]
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Scratch that. Power attracts the corruptible.

Rules should not replace the brain and thinking.