Topic: New Way to do Spell Lists

[Arioch]

Spell Law:
1) A whole new perspective could be opened if an Arcane Companion presented a system for spells that is the casters' equivalent of the combat styles system that is presented in the Combat Companion.  Lists become skills, casters able to cast up to the ranks the list is known.  DP cost determined (as in combat styles) based on the options you include in your list skill.  Features like increasing range, increasing damage or criticals, fumble reduction, base casting improvements, etc. are all add-ins that can be tweaked by type of list/spell.

Cool idea! Don't know if it would be an easy thing to do but I like the concept.
Have an idea point 

Do you guys mean something like this? http://www.wizlair.net/news.php?extend.41

Something like the scalable version of spell lists, but combined with the style-building concept of the CC.
Each spell list could start from a basic form (for example the simple version of Light Law in the link, without any option). Then characters could buy scalable options in the list by making it cost more DPs (like the options/manuevers for combat styles).
So a PC could learn a cheap, basic version of a list for few DPs or add options and power to it by spending more. This would allow non-users or semis to learn weaker versions of a spell lists, while pure users would be able to afford more powerful versions of the same.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

oh my aching head.....

You wanna design such a system?  (heck, I didn't get a warm welcome when suggesting scalable spell lists hehe)


 

[Arioch]

I said that it wasn't going to be easy... 

[twh]

Scalable spells sounds like a good idea to me, like Basic Magic in Chivalry & Sorcery 1e.  Spell Law, by its nature, has always been very wordy; a smaller number of spells that are extensible ought to be easier to keep up with.  And Arioch's notion of using CC's Combat Styles as the template for scalable spells is an even better idea (so have an idea point, Arioch).  This has the added benefit of making spellcasters more unique--one man's lighting strike might be different than another man's, depending on what effects he purchased.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Split off to allow more in-depth discussion without disrupting the original thread.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Not sure how well a buildable, scalable list would work.

What we are talking about here is essentially, a scalable spell list with few or no scaling options being the base list, and then allowing scaling options to be added to the list, and having the number of scaling options determining the DP cost for learning the list.


Just determining the base spells and the scaling options themselves would already be one sub-system (creation system). Adding in a second level of creation to the mix might be too much complexity.

The weapon style rules in Combat Companion is only a single level system. You add the individual components, and then look up the DP cost.

What needs to be kept in mind is that complexity has to be balanced out against ease of use. If you don't balance them, you then end up with something that is either too complex (O/E/R skills from RMSS/FRP?) or that is too bland overall.

I am not saying that such a system would be impossible, just that it MIGHT be impracticable in the long run.

Am I getting my point across? or only confusing things? 

[Winterknight]

Spell Law:
1) A whole new perspective could be opened if an Arcane Companion presented a system for spells that is the casters' equivalent of the combat styles system that is presented in the Combat Companion.  Lists become skills, casters able to cast up to the ranks the list is known.  DP cost determined (as in combat styles) based on the options you include in your list skill.  Features like increasing range, increasing damage or criticals, fumble reduction, base casting improvements, etc. are all add-ins that can be tweaked by type of list/spell.

Cool idea! Don't know if it would be an easy thing to do but I like the concept.
Have an idea point 

Do you guys mean something like this? http://www.wizlair.net/news.php?extend.41

Something like the scalable version of spell lists, but combined with the style-building concept of the CC.
Each spell list could start from a basic form (for example the simple version of Light Law in the link, without any option). Then characters could buy scalable options in the list by making it cost more DPs (like the options/manuevers for combat styles).
So a PC could learn a cheap, basic version of a list for few DPs or add options and power to it by spending more. This would allow non-users or semis to learn weaker versions of a spell lists, while pure users would be able to afford more powerful versions of the same.

Arioch nailed what I was saying.  Heck, you could even include options for things like transcending armor into list-specific upgrades.  The reduced list starting point is the way to go, IMO.

I think the buildable aspect could probably be eliminated, once you pare down the lists to a standardized core grouping.  Then you do get back to that single-level of enhancements, Ras.  You start with a reduced list (like a basic weapon or group), and then add your options - like additional damage, range, AoE conversion, criticals, rate of effect, etc.

For the designer, it's a heck of a project - converting all the existing lists to a standardized reduced format, and building/testing the scaling options system.  For the player, it should be no more complicated than the combat companion.  And frankly, most of that's going to be done with the coordination of the GM anyway.

I'd sign up for working with a team on this project.  Now that NWN is trickling off, and I've handed the reins of my PW over to my successor, I'd have time for working on something like this.

[dutch206]

Why is the word "Spellfire" suddenly buzzing around in my head?

[twh]

I should clarify a couple of points on how I see this working.  First, I'm not sure spell "lists" would still exist, at least not as they are presently seen Spell Law.  Just as CC's Combat Styles completely replace the various weapon and unarmed combat skills with a unified concept I also see scalable spells revamping the entire current spell system.

Second, there would necessarily be a slightly different approach to spell effects than to weapons.  No matter what options and maneuvers you add to a combat style, a sword is just a sword; it's not suddenly going to become a ranged weapon you can fling one round, then back to a melee weapon the next.  A spell effect can be that way.

As an example, let's look at everyone's favorite: electricity.  As my mother used to say, "Never put off 'till tomorrow someone you can lightning bolt into a grease spot today."  So, a character purchases the spell (magic style) Manipulate Electricity which, based on the number of ranks purchased, has different effects (options and maneuvers): touch attack, ranged attack, area of effect attack, and so forth.  And those effects have maximum results also based on ranks and PP used for the spell.  Manipulate Electricity could replace an entire spell list.

What things would be included as Universal Options, Style Options, and Maneuvers I can't yet say, but it would be worth thinking about.

For starters, something similar to what's in CC could be published for spells.  If it was recieved well then a more complete version, with a set of predefined magic styles that constitute the core magic system, could be published.  As a comparison, consider what Combat Styles would include if it was integrated into Arms Law as a core rule?  Would a set of predefined styles be included that describe the fighting characteristics of common fantasy tropes?  Perhaps it would be best to start the scalable list concept as an optional rule just as Combat Styles is an optional rule--provide a set of options and maneuvers and basic spell effects and let the gamers work with it.

And can we please have "scalable" include the idea that a mage with Manipulate Fire ought to be able to get a camp fire going without fireballing the entire party?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Hmmm...... That sounds a lot like how Green Ronin did magic for the Black Company setting...

[Arioch]

And Arioch's notion of using CC's Combat Styles as the template for scalable spells is an even better idea (so have an idea point, Arioch). 

To Caesar what's Caesar's: Winterknight was the one who had this idea first, so the point should go to him

I am not saying that such a system would be impossible, just that it MIGHT be impracticable in the long run.

Am I getting my point across? or only confusing things? 

Pretty clear, yes.  
Creating a system like that could be a very hard task indeed, but IMHO it's an idea worth of thinkering with a bit... maybe it's not possible to create a system exactly like that, but it could spawn other coll ideas.

[twh]

Hmmm...... That sounds a lot like how Green Ronin did magic for the Black Company setting...

New one on me, I'll have to look that up.  I don't have a wide knowledge of different game systems--once I found RoleMaster there was no need to look further. 

[twh]

And Arioch's notion of using CC's Combat Styles as the template for scalable spells is an even better idea (so have an idea point, Arioch). 

To Caesar what's Caesar's: Winterknight was the one who had this idea first, so the point should go to him

True enough.  I knew I had read that somewhere else but couldn't remember where.

[Winterknight]

I think we're suggesting the same thing, regarding lists, twh.  I agree that something along the lines of your "Manipulate Electricity" would be a more broad-reaching effect.  I think you are still saying that some kind of inherent ranking system would probably be necessary, and I agree with that concept.  If users don't call this a list, I have no issue with the term.  I'm thinking along the lines of aspects of the greater discipline that would be accessible once a certain number of ranks in the skill were learned, and that seems to echo your example.  List is just a term from the existing common frame of reference.

Certainly, the HARP-style scaling is an inspiration as well, and I salivated quite heavily over that.  In fact, I was a little disappointed as more and more spells were added to that system, as it seemed to me the intent should have been to refine the structure to keep a small number of spell skills, with expanded functionality.

I guess that's what I'd be looking for.  Something where you can still keep class-distinct disciplines of power, but where a caster can develop options to become master of his particular sphere.  The options there would allow diversity within a discipline as well, so that Magician A was not necessarily identical to Magician B.  Magician A may have specialized heavily in Fire, Light and Ice, focusing on heavy damage and ranging, becoming a walking destruction machine.  Magician B focused on the same three lists, but on some casting speed enhancements to augment his combat style development, to develop as a Warrior Mage.

The key would be that you are spending your development on a reduced number of high-cost disciplines, rather than potentially hundreds individual spells, some of which still require additional development to be effective (spell mastery, directed spell skill, etc.)


Here's an example, using the reduced Light Law list that Tim linked.

The list provides the basic structure, and base casting cost for each individual effect.  The type (and these may require adjustments with the new system) defines universal costs (in power points) for scaling that effect IF the caster has unlocked those scaling options for that discipline.  He pays for the unlocking of options with an increased DP cost on the list/discipline development.

Some options may not be applicable, and would vary from list to list.

Example List Development Options:
Allow Temporal Scaling: 2 points
Allow Ranged Scaling: 1 point
Allow Target Scaling: 2 points
Bolt Rank Increase: 1 point per rank
Ball Rank Increase: 1 point per rank
Reduced Spell Fumble Range: *
Casting Maneuvers: 1 point per allowed maneuver

Casting "Maneuvers"
Fast Casting
Defensive Casting
Improved Critical Casting
Safe Casting (reduced spell failure effect roll - not fumble range)
Longshot (damage sacrificed for range)
Point blank (range sacrificed for damage)


These are just spitballing at this point, of course.  Trying to convey the idea.

So the method would be:
 - Player defines options for List/Discipline, spends appropriate DP's.
 - Character/caster at time of casting chooses overcasting options based on spell type and allowed overcasting from the list development.
 - Caster may also choose special casting maneuvers, if he has purchased them as well.  These may or may not require additional PP investment, but could further modify the casting experience or effect.

[twh]

I think we're suggesting the same thing, regarding lists, twh.

Great minds do think alike.  And I like the way you broke down the options in your example.